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Except it does, as it tells you that moving on from reserves happens immediately - you *cannot* perform any other actions that movement phase before moving units on the board.

Then only 1 unit can ever come on from reserves and if you roll for 2 units to come on the game breaks...

Nope, Fling, that specious logic has already been shown to be wrong....sheer repetition wont work

I would allow the eldar to cast as long as not turbo boosting onto hte table.

G

PG 94 BRB Reserves are at the start of the movement phase.
PG 28 ELDAR Eldar powers are used at the start of the Eldar turn except those deemed psy-shooting attacks.

It seems rather clear which happens first. Now you're into a debate of can a model use a psy power if they are not in play on the board which leads into what happens if they take a wound from perils off the board and if one does and they fail morale etc. Oh and Psychic Hoods, Rune weapons, etc range for those?

Good luck on getting a TO to side with something that will increase the effectiveness of the Seer Council.

Soup and a roll wrote:

Neconilis wrote:Links to past threads?

You want the video games forum.

Ithankyou.

I simply asked because BlueDagger seemed to know the location of past threads related to the topic and I was unable to find them.

Regardless, an eldar farseer who arrives from reserves can not use powers on that same turn because they are not on the board until they move. But once they move they've moved beyond the beginning of their turn where their powers are used, and they can not use powers in reserve as units are incapable of actions in reserve that aren't explicitly allowed. Correct?

Bingo Neconilis.

BlueDagger wrote:PG 94 BRB Reserves are at the start of the movement phase.
PG 28 ELDAR Eldar powers are used at the start of the Eldar turn except those deemed psy-shooting attacks.

This.

'Start of turn' effects kick in before the start of any given phase, IMO.

BlueDagger wrote:Bingo Neconilis.

Thanks.

insaniak wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:PG 94 BRB Reserves are at the start of the movement phase.
PG 28 ELDAR Eldar powers are used at the start of the Eldar turn except those deemed psy-shooting attacks.

This.

'Start of turn' effects kick in before the start of any given phase, IMO.

It just comes down to what you consider the actual start of the movement phase. To me it would be the moment the eldar appear on the table because they cannot start to move until that exact point in time.

G

They have to have moved to move onto the table though, no?

There is no such phase as "Start of the Turn". Since the movement phase is the beginning of the turn, and reserves happen at the beginning of the movement phase, it would be reasonable to assume that is pretty much as close to the top of the turn as you can get. So casting Eldar psychic powers has to go there somewhere.

Since "Start of the turn" by itself is not defined in the rules as a separate phase, you are left with having to decide if the start of the movement phase (when rolling for reserves) is also the Start of the Eldar player's turn.

BBF and I are saying that the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase are the same, or close enough that it doesn't appear to break any rules to allow the Farseer to move on from reserves and cast psychich powers.

The 40k rules are not tight enough to tell us what actions of this nature interrupt, precede or happen concurrently.

If I was to make a logical argument, it would go like this I guess:

P1: Reserve rolls are made at the beginning of the Movement Phase.
P2: Eldar Psychic powers are cast at the beginning of the Eldar turn.
P3: "Beginning of the Turn" is synonomous with "Beginning of the Movement phase".

C: A Farseer can cast a psychic power when moving on from reserves, since Reserves and Psychic powers happen at the beginning of the Movement phase.

White Dragon

You said that very well.

G

While I agree it is plausible, I don't think I could find a single TO that would follow that logic with the wording being as it is. As an eldar player I would love for this to be the way it's played, but alas the amount of crying that it would likely cause isn't worth it.

whitedragon wrote:There is no such phase as "Start of the Turn".

The rules don't require one.

The Movement Phase is ordinarily the first thing to happen in the turn. But because it is a separately defined period to the turn, if you have something that happens at the start of the turn it should happen before the Movement phase begins.

P3: "Beginning of the Turn" is synonomous with "Beginning of the Movement phase".

That's the step that is going to get you disagreement.

You start the turn. You then start the Movement phase, as the first defined phase of the turn. But the turn and the Movement phase are two different things.

The rules define three phases into which the turn is broken... but they don't require that everything happen in one of those phases. So you could, for example, have an effect that kicks in in between the Movement and Shooting phase. Or at the start of the turn, which would be before the first phase... otherwise it would tell you to perform that action at the start of the phase.

This is one of those situations I have never run across in actual game - that is, breaking a phase down to this level. Certainly each phase has a beginning & end with everything else in between but if you break it down to a microsmic level then it just seems to become quite tedious. We could use this approach on a wider level and I think it would lead to more arguments regarding the rules & general dissatification with playing the game in general.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote: but if you break it down to a microsmic level then it just seems to become quite tedious.

Hyperbole much?

Seriously, this isn't 'breaking it down to a microsmic (whatever that is) level... it's simply acknowledging that the start of the turn comes before the start of the movement phase.

This interpretation actually helps to prevent problems with rules that don't specify any other hierarchy. Otherwise, when you have multiple things that all have to happen at the start of the phase, you're left with having to figure out whether they happen simultaneously or in some set order.

Accepting that the start of the turn and the start of the phase are two different things doesn't remove that problem entirely, but it does remove it when the conflict is from one start of turn effect and one start of phase effect.

insaniak wrote:You start the turn. You then start the Movement phase, as the first defined phase of the turn. But the turn and the Movement phase are two different things.

There is no other start of the turn other than the movement phase, according to the rules. You are creating a distinction where the rules make none.

The start of the turn would be before any movement is made.

Rolling for reserves at the start of the movement phase would still allow multiple reserve rolls and reserve movements because the reserve rules specifically state you must make a reserve roll for every unit you have in reserve.

The Fallacy by White Dragon and Black Blow fly is they are both doing reserve wrong.

You roll reserves for every unit you have; then after finding out which units are available you deploy those units and move them on to table.

No matter which order you choose to use at the beginning of your turn/movement phase you will be using your Eldar farseer powers before any reserved farseers are actually on the table.

You can either
A) Make your reserve rolls, then cast farseer powers, then move your reserved units available onto the table (sort of incorrect as it treats the Psychic power as an "interrupt" to the reserves rules)
or
B) Cast your Psychic powers and then roll for all reserves and then move your units on.

You cannot however roll all your reserves, move them on(entering the actual movement phase) and then cast your powers.

I am really surprised no one has explained to them the are wrong about how reserves are deployed/rolled for, or has every body else been doing it wrong as well?

I've always played my Eldar as they cannot cast Guide/Fortune/Doom the same turn as they come in from Reserve.

But, for those who think you can: where do you measure range from if the models are off the table? It seems assumed Fortune is being cast on a Seer Council, but it can be cast on other units up to 6" away; Guide as well. Doom: do you measure from the table edge?

It plays a lot smoother to not allow this and I haven't seen any real rule to allow it either.

whitedragon wrote:There is no other start of the turn other than the movement phase, according to the rules. You are creating a distinction where the rules make none.

The start of the movement phase is (ordinarily) the first thing to happen in the turn. That doesn't make it the same thing as the start of the turn. They're two separate things... One is the start of a player's turn. The other is the start of a particular phase within that turn.

The simple fact that the turn is broken up into phases means that a phase and a turn are not the same thing. And if they are not the same thing, then the start of one can not be the start of the other. They are two things that can potentially (and usually do) occur at the same time, that's all.

insaniak wrote:

whitedragon wrote:There is no other start of the turn other than the movement phase, according to the rules. You are creating a distinction where the rules make none.

The simple fact that the turn is broken up into phases means that a phase and a turn are not the same thing. And if they are not the same thing, then the start of one can not be the start of the other. They are two things that can potentially (and usually do) occur at the same time, that's all.

That is the flaw in your argument. The start of the players turn begins with the movement phase. There is nothing else that happens in a turn before the movement phase, ever. A turn only consists of three phases, Movement, Shooting and Assault. There is nothing before that, no upkeep or maintenance phase, or even hand the tape measure to your opponent phase.

It's the same thing as saying that a week begins on sunday, but that the very beginning of sunday at 12:01 AM is somehow not the beginning of the week.

The beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase is the same thing.

insaniak wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote: but if you break it down to a microsmic level then it just seems to become quite tedious.

Hyperbole much?

Seriously, this isn't 'breaking it down to a microsmic (whatever that is) level... it's simply acknowledging that the start of the turn comes before the start of the movement phase.

This interpretation actually helps to prevent problems with rules that don't specify any other hierarchy. Otherwise, when you have multiple things that all have to happen at the start of the phase, you're left with having to figure out whether they happen simultaneously or in some set order.

Accepting that the start of the turn and the start of the phase are two different things doesn't remove that problem entirely, but it does remove it when the conflict is from one start of turn effect and one start of phase effect.

it's actually quite applicable since Dawn of War is 1/3 of standard missions. just two weeks ago an eldar player at my club put his guide/doom farseer with the fire dragons and came on turn one from the table edge. since he wasn't on the table at the start of the turn, we both decided he didn't get to use his powers.

The best answer I found to this is located here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

First part under Errata in the FAQ under Choas Sorcerer arriving via Deepstrike being able to use Warp Time.

Borris the Blade wrote:The best answer I found to this is located here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

First part under Errata in the FAQ under Choas Sorcerer arriving via Deepstrike being able to use Warp Time.

This will start the fight of "Other army FAQ doesn't cross reference blah blah blah", but that is a clear illustration of what GW intended in this situation. Good work Borris.

whitedragon wrote:

insaniak wrote:

whitedragon wrote:There is no other start of the turn other than the movement phase, according to the rules. You are creating a distinction where the rules make none.

The simple fact that the turn is broken up into phases means that a phase and a turn are not the same thing. And if they are not the same thing, then the start of one can not be the start of the other. They are two things that can potentially (and usually do) occur at the same time, that's all.

That is the flaw in your argument. The start of the players turn begins with the movement phase. There is nothing else that happens in a turn before the movement phase, ever. A turn only consists of three phases, Movement, Shooting and Assault. There is nothing before that, no upkeep or maintenance phase, or even hand the tape measure to your opponent phase.

It's the same thing as saying that a week begins on sunday, but that the very beginning of sunday at 12:01 AM is somehow not the beginning of the week.

The beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase is the same thing.

It Doesn't really matter if the start of the Movement phase and the start of the turn are the same thing you still have to use the Powers before any Movement, therefore cannot use the powers after moving on from table edge, as that would be After that units movement. In order to satisfy all rules without breaking any of them you would have to cast powers before rolling for reserves.

Note the second part of the reserve rules: roll at the start of the Movement phase, BEFORE moving any models. Now the Farseer Powers just say at the start of the turn; which you are stating is the movement phase. So because of both rules going somewhat simultaneously, and the reserve rules also requiring you to move models(thus moving into your movement phase, and thus past the beginning of the turn) you must logically make your powers before rolling for reserves. This will satisfy both rules and break none, because the reserve rules give that little bit of Leeway(you may have used powers, but you still have not moved any models).

Borris the Blade wrote:The best answer I found to this is located here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

First part under Errata in the FAQ under Choas Sorcerer arriving via Deepstrike being able to use Warp Time.

That's good enough. The explanation is a result of the core mechanics, not something codex specific, so can certainly be extrapolated to any other similar situation.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It Doesn't really matter if the start of the Movement phase and the start of the turn are the same thing you still have to use the Powers before any Movement, therefore cannot use the powers after moving on from table edge, as that would be After that units movement. In order to satisfy all rules without breaking any of them you would have to cast powers before rolling for reserves.

Note the second part of the reserve rules: roll at the start of the Movement phase, BEFORE moving any models. Now the Farseer Powers just say at the start of the turn; which you are stating is the movement phase. So because of both rules going somewhat simultaneously, and the reserve rules also requiring you to move models(thus moving into your movement phase, and thus past the beginning of the turn) you must logically make your powers before rolling for reserves. This will satisfy both rules and break none, because the reserve rules give that little bit of Leeway(you may have used powers, but you still have not moved any models).

Actually, in that case, if the phases begin at the same time, and the reserves is required to be done first, then it seems like you should be able to roll for reserves and then cast psychic powers. There is no such part of the movement phase/turn that is clearly defined as the "start", so its really impossible to determine which actions that happen at the start of the turn really go before, after or concurrent with each other. If you move your model at the start of the turn due to reserves, and psychic powers are cast at the start of the turn as well, why couldn't they both be done at the same time, or as soon as the model is deployed on the board but before they move?

insaniak wrote:

Borris the Blade wrote:The best answer I found to this is located here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610178_Chaos_Space_Marines_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf

First part under Errata in the FAQ under Choas Sorcerer arriving via Deepstrike being able to use Warp Time.

That's good enough. The explanation is a result of the core mechanics, not something codex specific, so can certainly be extrapolated to any other similar situation.

The FAQ does seem to clear it up, however, GW's explanation leaves something to be desired, as they believe the Start of the Turn and the Start of the Movement phase to be different entities, but the main rulebook makes no mention of a "start of turn" phase anywhere.

Great job Boris. I had forgotten that about the Sorceror and I do play Chaos from time to time.

G

whitedragon wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:It Doesn't really matter if the start of the Movement phase and the start of the turn are the same thing you still have to use the Powers before any Movement, therefore cannot use the powers after moving on from table edge, as that would be After that units movement. In order to satisfy all rules without breaking any of them you would have to cast powers before rolling for reserves.

Note the second part of the reserve rules: roll at the start of the Movement phase, BEFORE moving any models. Now the Farseer Powers just say at the start of the turn; which you are stating is the movement phase. So because of both rules going somewhat simultaneously, and the reserve rules also requiring you to move models(thus moving into your movement phase, and thus past the beginning of the turn) you must logically make your powers before rolling for reserves. This will satisfy both rules and break none, because the reserve rules give that little bit of Leeway(you may have used powers, but you still have not moved any models).

Actually, in that case, if the phases begin at the same time, and the reserves is required to be done first, then it seems like you should be able to roll for reserves and then cast psychic powers. There is no such part of the movement phase/turn that is clearly defined as the "start", so its really impossible to determine which actions that happen at the start of the turn really go before, after or concurrent with each other. If you move your model at the start of the turn due to reserves, and psychic powers are cast at the start of the turn as well, why couldn't they both be done at the same time, or as soon as the model is deployed on the board but before they move?

First I didn't say the reserves were required to go first, I said reserve leaves you with the leeway to allow "start of the Turn" abilities to go before reserves. The reserve rules Cannot be interrupted to allow for a "Start of the Turn" ability to occur after rolling for reserves but before the reserves move on, and once reserves begin moving onto table you are already into your movement phase and therefore cannot use any "start of the turn" abilities.

Second You do not deploy Your reserve unit on the table, then move them. You move them on as if they were right at the edge of the board. this means that if you move a rhino, or a Land raider in from reserves the front of your hull will only be 6-12" from the table edge(depending on the speed you move) and infantry models must be no further than 6" onto the table from table edge to opposite side of the base.

Note: this is not a personal attack. You really are showing that you do not understand the reserve rules at all, or at least how to use them. Again, I am not attacking your character, but you may want to brush up on them

Kommissar Kel wrote:
First I didn't say the reserves were required to go first, I said reserve leaves you with the leeway to allow "start of the Turn" abilities to go before reserves. The reserve rules Cannot be interrupted to allow for a "Start of the Turn" ability to occur after rolling for reserves but before the reserves move on, and once reserves begin moving onto table you are already into your movement phase and therefore cannot use any "start of the turn" abilities.

It also leaves you the leeway for these type of abilities to go "after" or "at the same time" as reserve rolls. Since both begin at the beginning, why is it that one of them has to go before the other? Why can't they go simultaneously. My point is that the rules are not "clear" or "tight" enough for us to determine which goes first.

As for your other point about reserves, I understand perfectly how they work, and it doesn't matter in terms of the discussion we are having.

Since the rules do not tell us which "beginning of turn" abilities trigger first, and actually has no rules for how they stack or activate in reference to each other, then there really is no clear way to interpret this. A model coming in from reserve, after rolling for reserve, or after completing it's movement, could cast a psychic power, since neither ability tells us which takes precedence.

However, the FAQ "clears" it up, so it's moot now.