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Well there are 2 reasons why other "start of turn" or even "begining of the movement phase" abilities cannot go after, nor Simultaneously with reserves.

1) with reserves, there are 2 parts; the rolling for inbound units, and the movement of those units available. Because of the latter part you are certainly going into your movement phase, and thus no longer at the beginning of your turn/the phase; so you cannot make use of the reserve rule before any other Start of turn/movement phase abilities.

2) for acting simultaneously; while not exactly effecting the net result you would have to interrupt the reserves process to utilize the other abilities, and you still would not be able to use most of those abilities with units just becoming available because they would have to enter into the movement phase in order to get onto the table, and thus effect the game. What I am saying is that you would (in a simultaneous scenario) Roll for reserves, Interrupt the reserves process to utilize your beginning of turn/movement ability, then bring in your reserves.


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Well there are 2 reasons why other "start of turn" or even "begining of the movement phase" abilities cannot go after, nor Simultaneously with reserves.

1) with reserves, there are 2 parts; the rolling for inbound units, and the movement of those units available. Because of the latter part you are certainly going into your movement phase, and thus no longer at the beginning of your turn/the phase; so you cannot make use of the reserve rule before any other Start of turn/movement phase abilities.

2) for acting simultaneously; while not exactly effecting the net result you would have to interrupt the reserves process to utilize the other abilities, and you still would not be able to use most of those abilities with units just becoming available because they would have to enter into the movement phase in order to get onto the table, and thus effect the game. What I am saying is that you would (in a simultaneous scenario) Roll for reserves, Interrupt the reserves process to utilize your beginning of turn/movement ability, then bring in your reserves.

Here is a different way of looking at it.

If the farseer moves can he use the powers? NO.

If at the start of the turn the farseer was not on the board, did he MOVE to get on the board? Yes

Seems to me he can not use his powers the turn he arrives.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Well there are 2 reasons why other "start of turn" or even "begining of the movement phase" abilities cannot go after, nor Simultaneously with reserves.

1) with reserves, there are 2 parts; the rolling for inbound units, and the movement of those units available. Because of the latter part you are certainly going into your movement phase, and thus no longer at the beginning of your turn/the phase; so you cannot make use of the reserve rule before any other Start of turn/movement phase abilities.

2) for acting simultaneously; while not exactly effecting the net result you would have to interrupt the reserves process to utilize the other abilities, and you still would not be able to use most of those abilities with units just becoming available because they would have to enter into the movement phase in order to get onto the table, and thus effect the game. What I am saying is that you would (in a simultaneous scenario) Roll for reserves, Interrupt the reserves process to utilize your beginning of turn/movement ability, then bring in your reserves.

And since both of these are "at the beginning", why couldn't you move your Farseer on from reserve and then cast his power? Both actions are at the beginning of the turn and GW doesn't tell us which comes first? Rolling and moving on the board is all part of the Reserves process, so that entire action could happen and the farseer would still be at the "beginning" of his turn, and so could therefore cast powers.

(Except in the FAQ of course, which we have both already acknowledged, this is purely academic at this point.)

To be honest I dont know why we are still discussing this now as whitedragon pointed out this is purely academic now. I see nothing further to add.

G

whitedragon wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
And since both of these are "at the beginning", why couldn't you move your Farseer on from reserve and then cast his power? Both actions are at the beginning of the turn and GW doesn't tell us which comes first? Rolling and moving on the board is all part of the Reserves process, so that entire action could happen and the farseer would still be at the "beginning" of his turn, and so could therefore cast powers.

(Except in the FAQ of course, which we have both already acknowledged, this is purely academic at this point.)

Because as soon as you Move your farseer onto the board you are past the beginning of your movement phase and now well into it. You cannot move a farseer that is already on the board then use his powers now can you?

of course you cannot, because once you move him you have moved past the beginning of your turn/movement phase.

Black Blow Fly; Academia is EVERYTHING. Just saying: "oh, they gave us set precedence over here with some description as to why it works this way, so I will take that at face value" does not teach one to understand exactly why it works that way. one of the main reasons for this area of the forum is not just to get the answers to all your questions but to learn WHY those are the answers and HOW to get the answers to future questions based on the understaning of the rules, parts of the english language most americans do not apply/understand that well to begin with, and logical flow.

Vet Sgt Ezekiel wrote:i.e i use embolden for guardians and enhance for a unit like scorpions

I am rather curious how you gave the scorpions enhance...

TheDiffidentOne wrote:

Vet Sgt Ezekiel wrote:i.e i use embolden for guardians and enhance for a unit like scorpions

I am rather curious how you gave the scorpions enhance...

I think he means storm guardians for a unit like scorpions.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Because as soon as you Move your farseer onto the board you are past the beginning of your movement phase and now well into it. You cannot move a farseer that is already on the board then use his powers now can you?

of course you cannot, because once you move him you have moved past the beginning of your turn/movement phase.

This is the crux of the whole issue really. Because GW doesn't have a "phase" that governs start of the turn actions, we don't really know how long the "start of the turn" is supposed to take, or how many actions can properly comprise it. I would argue that doing both the reserve roll and the psychic power satisfies the Farseer's action for the "start of the turn", and then you would continue to move other units on the board that may have become available through reserves.

For example, you have 3 units in reserve, including a farseer. They all become available when rolling for reserves. As you begin to move them on the board, you are still in the beginning of the turn, because you are still resolving reserves as described on page 94. So the farseer, still being in the beginning of the turn, could cast a power.

This seems weird because when would he be allowed to cast? From the board edge, at the beginning of his move or end? If you resolve his movement on the table from reserves first, and then cast a power, and then proceed to bring the other available units on the table, you are still in the "beginning of the turn" because you are still resolving reserves.

The scenario i described above breaks no rules and follows RAW. It raises some other interesting questions though.

Tri wrote:I think he means storm guardians for a unit like scorpions.

Oh. Ok.

We had a guy come into our FLGS with his eldar, and played a noobie, and somehow convinced him that he could cast enhance on a unit of scorpions.

He and I got into it, because neither of us had our codices handy(I was playing my SWs). He insisted that a warlock could target other units with it. Finally, we got the store's copy, and I showed him the bit about "all models in the same unit as the warlock". Namecalling ensued, and I informed him he is the type of person that gives Eldar players a bad name. He hasn't been back.

*WHEW*
Blew off a little steam there, sorry.
It is a bit of a sore spot for me.

Edited to fix the spelling in my angry rant.

whitedragon wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Because as soon as you Move your farseer onto the board you are past the beginning of your movement phase and now well into it. You cannot move a farseer that is already on the board then use his powers now can you?

of course you cannot, because once you move him you have moved past the beginning of your turn/movement phase.

This is the crux of the whole issue really. Because GW doesn't have a "phase" that governs start of the turn actions, we don't really know how long the "start of the turn" is supposed to take, or how many actions can properly comprise it. I would argue that doing both the reserve roll and the psychic power satisfies the Farseer's action for the "start of the turn", and then you would continue to move other units on the board that may have become available through reserves.

For example, you have 3 units in reserve, including a farseer. They all become available when rolling for reserves. As you begin to move them on the board, you are still in the beginning of the turn, because you are still resolving reserves as described on page 94. So the farseer, still being in the beginning of the turn, could cast a power.

This seems weird because when would he be allowed to cast? From the board edge, at the beginning of his move or end? If you resolve his movement on the table from reserves first, and then cast a power, and then proceed to bring the other available units on the table, you are still in the "beginning of the turn" because you are still resolving reserves.

The scenario i described above breaks no rules and follows RAW. It raises some other interesting questions though.

Ok it comes down to this; can a farseer already on table Move before he casts? The answer is no he cannot. As the Farseer coming in from reserves is not on the board until he moves he also cannot cast, because for one he is not on the table so you have now reference point to measure from, and for another you cannot move and then cast as moving in anyway takes you out of the beginning of the Turn/movement phase.

Once you start moving anything you are no longer at the beginning of the turn/movement phase. Moving any models in from reserve will itself shift you into the movement phase, away from the beginning; this is because the models that move onto the table from reserves have then Finished their movement phase.

The scenario you describe Certainly breaks a rule, antd that rule is that the power must be cast at the beginning of the turn, not after it has completed its move.

whitedragon wrote: It raises some other interesting questions though.

Which are answered by the interpretation that 'start of turn' effects take place before 'start of movement phase' effects.

TheDiffidentOne wrote:We had a guy come into our FLGS with his eldar, and played a noobie, and somehow convinced him that he could cast enhance on a unit of scorpions.

I know ^_^ ... was playing with my Eldar army and was told i was an idiot for not taking falcons. In short order i was told: they're BS4, pulse laser had lancing and units could assault out of them. When I went for the rule boo,k to show him, he walked off saying "See its all there".

Now if they did come with all that well it would be a no brainer to take them. Really wish they did I've three that sit alone on my shell never to be used unless we have +4Kpts apoc game.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Ok it comes down to this; can a farseer already on table Move before he casts? The answer is no he cannot. As the Farseer coming in from reserves is not on the board until he moves he also cannot cast, because for one he is not on the table so you have now reference point to measure from, and for another you cannot move and then cast as moving in anyway takes you out of the beginning of the Turn/movement phase.

Once you start moving anything you are no longer at the beginning of the turn/movement phase. Moving any models in from reserve will itself shift you into the movement phase, away from the beginning; this is because the models that move onto the table from reserves have then Finished their movement phase.

The scenario you describe Certainly breaks a rule, antd that rule is that the power must be cast at the beginning of the turn, not after it has completed its move.

I disagree, because "Moving on from the table edge" is still resolving "reserves" which happens at the beginning of the phase along with psychic powers, not "Movement." A model that moves on the table from reserves has completed it's "Reserve" result, which happens "at the beginning of the movement phase" before other movement, and is therefore still at the beginning of the phase.

insaniak wrote:

whitedragon wrote: It raises some other interesting questions though.

Which are answered by the interpretation that 'start of turn' effects take place before 'start of movement phase' effects.

Which I have already said I agree with because the FAQ makes that disctinction, however, Komissar Kel and I are having an intelligent academic discussion about how the rules may have worked had the FAQ not ruled in that manner.