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I use them on dakka Predators, but nowhere else like Devastators.

Honersstodnt wrote: those squads already have bolters, which can do anything a heavy bolter can do, cheaper.

This pretty much sums it up for SM. Heavy bolters are pretty unnecessary for an army that's already running around with a few dozen regular bolters.

Generalstoner wrote:Heavy Bolters to me are one of those things that need to be used in bunches.

Which is why they appear to be so much more useful for imperial guardsmen.

My problem with this line of thinking, though, is that pretty much ANYTHING will start looking good when used in bunches. What you've got to look at, then, is the points cost. In the case of marines, you can spend an obscene number of points for making a so-so weapon look good by spamming it. As schaedenfreude notes, the imperial guard spam heavy bolters by accident, as most guard vehicles come with a free heavy bolter. Sure, most of the time they're not using said heavy bolters, as they're firing artillery or are transports moving 12", but they're not too bad for their price in a guard army.

For a marine army, spending the points for more reduncancy that can be achieved better with the billion and a half heavy flamers marine armies seem capable of fielding would make it a choice I wouldn't recommend.

zeekill wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:My vote was Yay Amazing based upon the potential that the HB has.

HB is pretty much always a bad option for MEQ infantry to choose as their heavy weapon. Space Marines can never use HB to the full potential of the weapon.

Heavy Bolters are an IG weapon. Take the following list.

3 Valks/Vendettas=6HB
3 Heavy support artillery/manticores=3HB
3 PBS in Chimera=3HB
8 more Chimera for troops/HQ=8HB

That's 20 HB
20HB=60 shots=30 hits=20 wounds on MEQ=6.666 dead MEQ per turn from nothing but the HB. Some shots will be lost as say Vendettas shoot lascannons at vehicles. Every 3rd HB will drop a MEQ, and against light infantry such as orks every HB will drop an ork.

The massive quantity of HB in and IG army can be rather staggering.

Or, you can take 2 Medusas or something and kill a whole 10 man MEQ squad every turn.

On Vedettas HB are useless as they are meant to shoot at Tanks and MC's
If you are taking Artillery take it for the artillery, there is no point to have a heavy bolter on it. Put a heavy flamer on it to completely obliterate anything that ever gets close.
Chimeras should never take HB, they should always take ML/HF. a ML gets the same 3 shots at S6, making it barely abke to Penetrate Rhinos. The HF owns everything that gets close to you.
In 40k AP4 means almost nothing, as the two armies that mainly use 4+ Saves are Eldar and Tau, both of which are already too easy to beat with Marines. (Depending on how good the Eldar player is he could massacre the SM player but a SM list with enough anti tank should be able to win)

If Vendettas as your said are meant to be shot at tanks and MC then a pair of HB for 10 points is well worth the points. If it's shooting at a T6 MC then 6 extra heavy bolter shots=1 more wound on the MC per turn in addition to the lascannons. The Vendetta needs to slow down to 6" so it can shoot all 3 LC anyways, so it doesn't need to slow it's roll to shoot the HB. Shooting 1 LC at a MC with 4-6 wounds isn't going to impress it much, so when shooting MC a Vendetta is always going to want to move slow enough to shoot all it's guns.

Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters have the exact same stats when it comes to STR and AP. Anything squishy enough that a single HF can eliminate it will be torn to pieces by heavy bolters. MEQ are not squishy. Even if a HF catches a generous 6 MEQ in a template that only translates to 4 wounds and 1.333 dead MEQ (The exact same damage as 4 turns of HB shooting) The end result is the MEQ squad is not obliterated or owned, it is in fact barely scratched, not even damaged enough that it has to take a morale test, and worst of all it's got a power fist in assault range of the HF.

Artillery should not have a HF. If an enemy target is just out of HF range it doesn't make sense to move closer to the target and give up the artillery shot only to have a HF bounce off power armor saves. The smart thing to do is move 6" away from the power fist and fire the big gun. Also note neither the HB or HF can be fired in the same turn as an ordinance weapon, so what we are really talking about is which one is the better back up weapon in the case the main weapon is destroyed, or a manticore's rockets are expended. Artillery usually remains as far from the enemy as possible, so chances are a HF will never be fired, but the HB can get to buisness.

As far as Chimeras go the ML is also AP4. 6 Chimera =18ML shots that are probably not going to be aimed at armor. The usual target for ML is infantry after other long ranged firepower has dismounted them from their transports. If the main target is going to be infantry at long range then 18ML shots + 18 HB shots is better than 18 ML shots.

The only time I see the merit of of HF on a Chimera is if a melta vet squad is inside. Let's face facts if any other squad type is inside the Chimera just isn't going to be moving towards the enemy to HF them.

schadenfreude wrote:Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters have the exact same stats when it comes to STR and AP. Anything squishy enough that a single HF can eliminate it will be torn to pieces by heavy bolters.

But it takes much longer. Furthermore, HB's are basically bogus against infantry in cover, which means that, while heavy flamers are tearing stuff to pieces, the heavy bolter is sitting there all but useless.

schadenfreude wrote:As far as Chimeras go the ML is also AP4.

...except when they don't.

schadenfreude wrote:

zeekill wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:My vote was Yay Amazing based upon the potential that the HB has.

HB is pretty much always a bad option for MEQ infantry to choose as their heavy weapon. Space Marines can never use HB to the full potential of the weapon.

Heavy Bolters are an IG weapon. Take the following list.

3 Valks/Vendettas=6HB
3 Heavy support artillery/manticores=3HB
3 PBS in Chimera=3HB
8 more Chimera for troops/HQ=8HB

That's 20 HB
20HB=60 shots=30 hits=20 wounds on MEQ=6.666 dead MEQ per turn from nothing but the HB. Some shots will be lost as say Vendettas shoot lascannons at vehicles. Every 3rd HB will drop a MEQ, and against light infantry such as orks every HB will drop an ork.

The massive quantity of HB in and IG army can be rather staggering.

Or, you can take 2 Medusas or something and kill a whole 10 man MEQ squad every turn.

On Vedettas HB are useless as they are meant to shoot at Tanks and MC's
If you are taking Artillery take it for the artillery, there is no point to have a heavy bolter on it. Put a heavy flamer on it to completely obliterate anything that ever gets close.
Chimeras should never take HB, they should always take ML/HF. a ML gets the same 3 shots at S6, making it barely abke to Penetrate Rhinos. The HF owns everything that gets close to you.
In 40k AP4 means almost nothing, as the two armies that mainly use 4+ Saves are Eldar and Tau, both of which are already too easy to beat with Marines. (Depending on how good the Eldar player is he could massacre the SM player but a SM list with enough anti tank should be able to win)

If Vendettas as your said are meant to be shot at tanks and MC then a pair of HB for 10 points is well worth the points. If it's shooting at a T6 MC then 6 extra heavy bolter shots=1 more wound on the MC per turn in addition to the lascannons. The Vendetta needs to slow down to 6" so it can shoot all 3 LC anyways, so it doesn't need to slow it's roll to shoot the HB. Shooting 1 LC at a MC with 4-6 wounds isn't going to impress it much, so when shooting MC a Vendetta is always going to want to move slow enough to shoot all it's guns.

Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters have the exact same stats when it comes to STR and AP. Anything squishy enough that a single HF can eliminate it will be torn to pieces by heavy bolters. MEQ are not squishy. Even if a HF catches a generous 6 MEQ in a template that only translates to 4 wounds and 1.333 dead MEQ (The exact same damage as 4 turns of HB shooting) The end result is the MEQ squad is not obliterated or owned, it is in fact barely scratched, not even damaged enough that it has to take a morale test, and worst of all it's got a power fist in assault range of the HF.

Artillery should not have a HF. If an enemy target is just out of HF range it doesn't make sense to move closer to the target and give up the artillery shot only to have a HF bounce off power armor saves. The smart thing to do is move 6" away from the power fist and fire the big gun. Also note neither the HB or HF can be fired in the same turn as an ordinance weapon, so what we are really talking about is which one is the better back up weapon in the case the main weapon is destroyed, or a manticore's rockets are expended. Artillery usually remains as far from the enemy as possible, so chances are a HF will never be fired, but the HB can get to buisness.

As far as Chimeras go the ML is also AP4. 6 Chimera =18ML shots that are probably not going to be aimed at armor. The usual target for ML is infantry after other long ranged firepower has dismounted them from their transports. If the main target is going to be infantry at long range then 18ML shots + 18 HB shots is better than 18 ML shots.

The only time I see the merit of of HF on a Chimera is if a melta vet squad is inside. Let's face facts if any other squad type is inside the Chimera just isn't going to be moving towards the enemy to HF them.

HF is always better than a HB on Vehicles other than on Hydras. Anyone with a squishy squad will be smart enough to try to give it cover saves. Lets say a group of 20 shoota boys are in cover and tearing up your infantry.

HB - 3 Shots - 1.5 Hit - 1 Wound - 0.5 Wounds after Cover
HF - 6 hits (example, ill probably even get more on orks, probably around 10) - 4 Wounds - 4 Dead

HF are also better on Artullery. While no one is scared of a heavy bolter, people will be cautious within 12" of a tank with a heavy flamer- space marine or not space marine. Even 1 tank with just 1 Heavy Flamer will scare people into not getting close, or at least spreading their squads out in ways that allow you to take advantage of tank shocks to force them into a clump.

for the space marines the ability to fire hellfire rounds with the blast effect is useful on certain foes but i wouldnt base my army solely ob them its strength is in its versitlity rather than give the squad that special weapon not good against anything outside its speciality ints a multi role weapon

I feel Hbolters are especially important on vendettas.
because after a squadron of them finishes destroying their armored target ( which they will ) They might as well start shooting the rest of the army. For 30 points , they get 6 hvy bolters ( 18 more anti infantry shots ) ontop of the 9 lascannon. Casualties caused just doubled suddenly.

zeekill wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

zeekill wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:My vote was Yay Amazing based upon the potential that the HB has.

HB is pretty much always a bad option for MEQ infantry to choose as their heavy weapon. Space Marines can never use HB to the full potential of the weapon.

Heavy Bolters are an IG weapon. Take the following list.

3 Valks/Vendettas=6HB
3 Heavy support artillery/manticores=3HB
3 PBS in Chimera=3HB
8 more Chimera for troops/HQ=8HB

That's 20 HB
20HB=60 shots=30 hits=20 wounds on MEQ=6.666 dead MEQ per turn from nothing but the HB. Some shots will be lost as say Vendettas shoot lascannons at vehicles. Every 3rd HB will drop a MEQ, and against light infantry such as orks every HB will drop an ork.

The massive quantity of HB in and IG army can be rather staggering.

Or, you can take 2 Medusas or something and kill a whole 10 man MEQ squad every turn.

On Vedettas HB are useless as they are meant to shoot at Tanks and MC's
If you are taking Artillery take it for the artillery, there is no point to have a heavy bolter on it. Put a heavy flamer on it to completely obliterate anything that ever gets close.
Chimeras should never take HB, they should always take ML/HF. a ML gets the same 3 shots at S6, making it barely abke to Penetrate Rhinos. The HF owns everything that gets close to you.
In 40k AP4 means almost nothing, as the two armies that mainly use 4+ Saves are Eldar and Tau, both of which are already too easy to beat with Marines. (Depending on how good the Eldar player is he could massacre the SM player but a SM list with enough anti tank should be able to win)

If Vendettas as your said are meant to be shot at tanks and MC then a pair of HB for 10 points is well worth the points. If it's shooting at a T6 MC then 6 extra heavy bolter shots=1 more wound on the MC per turn in addition to the lascannons. The Vendetta needs to slow down to 6" so it can shoot all 3 LC anyways, so it doesn't need to slow it's roll to shoot the HB. Shooting 1 LC at a MC with 4-6 wounds isn't going to impress it much, so when shooting MC a Vendetta is always going to want to move slow enough to shoot all it's guns.

Heavy Flamers and Heavy Bolters have the exact same stats when it comes to STR and AP. Anything squishy enough that a single HF can eliminate it will be torn to pieces by heavy bolters. MEQ are not squishy. Even if a HF catches a generous 6 MEQ in a template that only translates to 4 wounds and 1.333 dead MEQ (The exact same damage as 4 turns of HB shooting) The end result is the MEQ squad is not obliterated or owned, it is in fact barely scratched, not even damaged enough that it has to take a morale test, and worst of all it's got a power fist in assault range of the HF.

Artillery should not have a HF. If an enemy target is just out of HF range it doesn't make sense to move closer to the target and give up the artillery shot only to have a HF bounce off power armor saves. The smart thing to do is move 6" away from the power fist and fire the big gun. Also note neither the HB or HF can be fired in the same turn as an ordinance weapon, so what we are really talking about is which one is the better back up weapon in the case the main weapon is destroyed, or a manticore's rockets are expended. Artillery usually remains as far from the enemy as possible, so chances are a HF will never be fired, but the HB can get to buisness.

As far as Chimeras go the ML is also AP4. 6 Chimera =18ML shots that are probably not going to be aimed at armor. The usual target for ML is infantry after other long ranged firepower has dismounted them from their transports. If the main target is going to be infantry at long range then 18ML shots + 18 HB shots is better than 18 ML shots.

The only time I see the merit of of HF on a Chimera is if a melta vet squad is inside. Let's face facts if any other squad type is inside the Chimera just isn't going to be moving towards the enemy to HF them.

HF is always better than a HB on Vehicles other than on Hydras. Anyone with a squishy squad will be smart enough to try to give it cover saves. Lets say a group of 20 shoota boys are in cover and tearing up your infantry.

HB - 3 Shots - 1.5 Hit - 1 Wound - 0.5 Wounds after Cover
HF - 6 hits (example, ill probably even get more on orks, probably around 10) - 4 Wounds - 4 Dead

HF are also better on Artullery. While no one is scared of a heavy bolter, people will be cautious within 12" of a tank with a heavy flamer- space marine or not space marine. Even 1 tank with just 1 Heavy Flamer will scare people into not getting close, or at least spreading their squads out in ways that allow you to take advantage of tank shocks to force them into a clump.

Corrections Multilasers are AP6. My bad I lump all AP 4,5,and 6 weapons together as "Not AP3"
HF are not AP3. Seriously you're going to kill 1.3 marines with 6 hits from a HF.
Heavy Flamers have a 22% chance per hit of killing a MEQ.
But heavy flamers deny cover saves....
Heavy Flamers have a 22% chance per hit of killing MEQ that are in cover.
It's the same story in cover and out of cover.

Question: What's the most common type of army played?
Answer: MEQ

The heavy flamer is often more of a liability than an asset against MEQ.
The only way a heavy flamer is going to get 6 hits is against a large squad say a 10 man.
1.3 casualties against a 10 man squad won't even force a moral test resulting in the artillery piece being assaulted by a power fist and a lot of krak grenades next turn that all hit on a 4+
If the squad is smaller say a 5 man then a HF won't be catching 6 models. With proper coherency and spreading out a bit the HF will only catch 3.
Now it's down to 0.6 MEQ casualties.
If somehow all 5 are caught by a sloppy marine player and a good IG player its still only 1 MEQ casualty.
The artillery piece is now going to be assaulted.
When fighting MEQ the thing HF are best at doing for artillery is putting them in assault range of power fists and krak grenades.

Heavy flamers are junk against MEQ. They are good against squishy horde armies that rely on cover, but seeing as how PCS and SWS tend to carry 3 flamers per squad IG has no lack of flamethrower power. IG certainly doesn't need every HB in their army replaced with a heavy flamer, even when fighting against a horde army. Effective flame weapon use against horde armies relies on 3 things: Location, location, and location. Mech IG is going to want to be in the open. Flame weapons deployed out in the wide open are poorly deployed. If the entire army has HF than the bulk of the army's heavy flamers will be poorly deployed. There is are only going to be a few areas of cover near the edge of an IG gunline. 2 or 3 PCS/SWS flame teams are all that's needed to defend them. The rest of the army can do long range shooting. The thing with an IG army is it has a lot of multilaser shots. If the IG player knows how to use his multilasers well against infantry and lays down effective Multilaser fire the same player would be laying down effective HB fire at the same time. It's not like the multilasers will somehow be magically effective against infantry in cover while heavy bolters will somehow fail. IG presents a real dilemma for horde players. Anything caught out in the open will be mowed down, but if the entire army hugs cover they will be slowed down by difficult terrain and they will clump up and IG big pie plates will tear the army up.

schadenfreude wrote:The heavy flamer is often more of a liability than an asset against MEQ.

But a heavy flamer is still better against MEq than a heavy bolter.

In any case, none of these weapons discussed are good against marines. How does this make heavy bolters somehow good?

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The heavy flamer is often more of a liability than an asset against MEQ.

But a heavy flamer is still better against MEq than a heavy bolter.

In any case, none of these weapons discussed are good against marines. How does this make heavy bolters somehow good?

Heavy flamers are not better against MEQ because they force vehicles to get close to MEQ without moving fast.
HF dooms the vehicle, which is why HB is better
It's better to run away and completely ineffectively shoot HB than it is to close range and kill 1 MEQ with a HF.
Zero dead MEQ is better than 1 dead MEQ and a dead artillery piece.
Trading a vehicle for 1 dead MEQ is not a fair trade IMO.

At roughly 15 points each, I have to go with meh. Smurfs are good at bringing bunches of light AI as it is, I don't see much of a need for HB in general. They seem decent on a predator, but I still see no reason not to use that pred as AV instead. 85 points is not a bad deal at all, but S5/AP4 weapons are best used in the form of heavy flamers. The difference in range is significant, but the HFs ability to break cover is very substantial. If you want a tank to deal with AI, you should use all of the tanks abilities, including the ability to block shots, threaten with tank shock, and be an obvious pest.

I would probably use predators geared for AT, and razorbacks for AI if I were to play Meq. Sticking HF onto transports makes them good targets, but that is not always a bad thing, at least if you can manage with only 2 turns of movement out of most of your transports. Landspeeders seem like the best platform for HF, while they would be pretty bad for HB.

HF can also hit multiple tanks if given the chance, and as remote the possibility is to find multiple AV10 targets waiting to get hit, you can do it. Combine that with the HFs ability to tear apart light infantry at the same time, and you have a fantastic weapon for a fast moving platform. Further, you could stick MM onto your Landspeeders along with a HF, use two in a squad, then go Tervigon hunting. The MM will be able to hit the Tervie, while you roast the swarm in between. Same can be done with a FD exarch and his squad.

HB are meh, HF are sweet.

Wrexasaur wrote:HB are meh, HF are sweet.

Yes, but How many Marines can get a Heavy Flamer?

A lot of people are not fans of razorbacks, but sticking HF on one, along with 5 marines w/ a flamer and PF sarge, makes for a pretty awesome AI unit.

What does it matter who can take a HF? There are several units that can, and IMO should over HB. If HB are the only option, as is the case with a pred, then taking it to supplement AI is an option... not a terribly good one, though. That tank can't move and fire both weapons, so it is no more than a tin can with guns on it much of the time. You can stick it behind BLOS or something, letting it stalk an open lane, but that doesn't seem very practical.

How often are you awe-inspired by the might of a Dev. squad with 4x HB. Not often, says I. It doesn't matter who can take it, as long as the units that benefit the most from HF (RB, LS, LR, etc...) do so when it suits the list.

If you have a choice between taking HB and not taking HB, stick with other weapons. IMO.

-----------

Can a RB move 6 inches and fire both it's HF and allow the flamer inside to fire since it is a defensive weapon? No, it doesn't have a top hatch... hmmm. NM.

I voted "Meh. Indifferent"
Its not that I dislike the HB its just that all my Chimeras have duel HBs so that my IG Vets don't have to lug any heavy weapons around with them

schadenfreude wrote:Heavy flamers are not better against MEQ because they force vehicles to get close to MEQ without moving fast.

Yeah, but to be fair, with one exception there are really two kinds of hull weapons, those on vehicles that you're barreling into their stuff, and those on vehicles who will never shoot it because they're shooting other stuff (like ordnance).

schadenfreude wrote:HF dooms the vehicle, which is why HB is better

So in this specific case, HB's are better. How does that make them good?

I mean, we can split hairs over tenths of marines killed, but they're both bad weapons in this case, not one is good and the other is bad.

I voted Meh. For Space Marines there are plenty of other ways to kill the usual targets of Heavy Bolters (infantry).

They can't hurt most transports, have a rate of fire that is decent but not impressive and force troops to stand still to use them. Most importantly they take up a space that could be used by a MultiMelta, Missile Launcher or Lascannon.

I voted meh. I take them on preds, as it makes that unit a saturation of fire unit, so it can take on infantry and light transports. The only other time I take them is when I use a regulare LR, as it comes with it. My Landspeeders are MM/HF or missile platforms. My razorbacks are lascannon TL plasma. So the other two platforms that are compelling for them I use other weapon options that are better (though more costly, but you got to spend a little sometimes) Full tacticals I don't think really want HB, since all it does is add more medium strength anti infantry to a sqaud that already has other options. A flamer and missile launcher is all you need, and its pretty cheap to give it to them. I don't play with devastators, since they cost so much. If I did, I would look at the cost of the HB compared to the ML, realize they are the same, and take the weapon that can be used in two different ways as opposed to just one.

schadenfreude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:The heavy flamer is often more of a liability than an asset against MEQ.

But a heavy flamer is still better against MEq than a heavy bolter.

In any case, none of these weapons discussed are good against marines. How does this make heavy bolters somehow good?

Heavy flamers are not better against MEQ because they force vehicles to get close to MEQ without moving fast.
HF dooms the vehicle, which is why HB is better
It's better to run away and completely ineffectively shoot HB than it is to close range and kill 1 MEQ with a HF.
Zero dead MEQ is better than 1 dead MEQ and a dead artillery piece.
Trading a vehicle for 1 dead MEQ is not a fair trade IMO.

You clearly dont see my point. HF are not killy against MEQ. They are crowd control. Many times people will be scared to put their squads anywhere near something that can use a flamer template.

HF are S5, therefore wounding on 3's. It is not out of this world that one can expect 6 hits to generate 4-6 wounds (people think worst case scenario when playing it out in their minds!)
Every marine has a 3+ save, true. But that is still a 33% chance to fail. Therefore it is also not out of this world to assume that from 5 hits you may see 2-3 deaths, and every failure is costly with marines (15-20 ppm)

People are scared to go near Heavy Flamers. Its not a killy tactic, its a phychiological one. What if its in range? What if it gets 5-7 hits? What if it rolls well on wounds? What if I completely whiff my saves?

And boy does it work.