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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:1. Better than most other leman russes...?

2. Like all leman russes?

...which are much cheaper for the same survivability

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:3. Like most other leman russes?

unlike an LRBT. Spacing makes it so that you hit as many models with a plasma cannon shot as you do with a plasma gun bout of shooting. Meanwhile, the blast radius of a large template is longer than the maximum spacing range.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:4. Meh, efficient though, for all the horde/meq/teq killing goodness.

What goodness? Against tightly clustered troops whose commander doesnt' know what a plasma cannon is, sure.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:- Only AV11 in CC? Let's count how many infantry can even GLANCE that without gernades... Hmmm... that's what I though :p

Sure, but most infantry gets grenades for free, and most infantry has the ability to take meltabombs or haywire grenades for cheap. And that's just regular infantry, scary stuff has the tendency to bring melta pistols, eviscerators, S10 close combat attacks, power fists, thunder hammers, etc. etc.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:- Name a tank that isn't easy to blow up with a fast melta. Go ahead we'll wait.

Monoliths.

Not that it matters. All guard vehicles are roughly as durable as the next (with the exception of LRBT and it's variants against long range infantry heavy weapons fire). The difference is that a regular russ is much cheaper.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:- You should get an average of two hits per blast regardless of spacing against a horde army that is.

A small blast template has a 1.5" radius. You can spread your troops up to 2" apart (2.5" from the exact center of the template).

ComputerGeek01 wrote:- Yes cool things are expensive

So we should take cool things regardless of their cost because they are cool?

The real disadvantage to it is that you have way too much overkill going at one target and you're relying on scatter to efficiently spread the pain.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:1. Better than most other leman russes...?

2. Like all leman russes?

...which are much cheaper for the same survivability

-
Wrong. About point 1. Point 2 can be said about all tanks. It is arbitrary because we are talking about the effectivness of single tanks, not entire armies, yes while you can fit a chimera and a LRBT, the executioner trumps the LRBT, at an expenditure of points alot of people wouldn't pay.
-

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:3. Like most other leman russes?

unlike an LRBT. Spacing makes it so that you hit as many models with a plasma cannon shot as you do with a plasma gun bout of shooting. Meanwhile, the blast radius of a large template is longer than the maximum spacing range.

-
Ok, though if you spread the models out enough, you will hit alot less with the battle tank. As well as you have one template which is prone to scattering completely off course.
-

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:4. Meh, efficient though, for all the horde/meq/teq killing goodness.

What goodness? Against tightly clustered troops whose commander doesnt' know what a plasma cannon is, sure.

-
Or... you know, if they deepstrike... or get a one to consolidate out of close combat. Or other things that FORCE them to be clustered.
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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Also, the LRBT gets a single blast, that at best against a spreader, nets three hits. On one template that is likely to scatter.

which means they're more likely to still hit someone. The only way you can get only 3 hits with a large blast template is on a 2" spaced conga line. In which case no vehicle here is going to do a lot of damage. If you have "cloud" spacing, you're looking at much more like 7 hits against someone spread out, rather than 1.

-
Yes. Yes a vehicle is, things that don't have templates, or vehicles that have multiple templates... executioner dcomes to mind?
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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Executioner gets five templates that net 2 each, for a total of 10. Which are likely to get a hit or two.

5 shots, 2 hits, 2 models hit. Any intervening infantry or if half of the unit is hiding behind terrain and that equals less than 1 kill a turn for a 200 point tank.


-
Dense. Five templates, equal 10 hits. Assume an on target or two appear. Roll to wound, kill.

Don't bring up terrain, it is a large part of the game. However, you ALWAYS use it to skew results to favor your argument, since you cannot accept being wrong.
-
awesomesause.

Cute.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Wrong. About point 1.

Fine, VIRTUALLY the same.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Point 2 can be said about all tanks. It is arbitrary because we are talking about the effectivness of single tanks, not entire armies, yes while you can fit a chimera and a LRBT, the executioner trumps the LRBT, at an expenditure of points alot of people wouldn't pay.

But this is inane. Yes, if we're looking in a total vacuum in perfect circumstances the most damage a single imperial guard vehicle can put out is a pask executioner. How is this useful for list building?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ok, though if you spread the models out enough, you will hit alot less with the battle tank. As well as you have one template which is prone to scattering completely off course.

But a lot more than even all 5 shots of an executioner. Plus, spreading out means that you can still get the same amount of hits with a scatter more easily. In the case of a large blast template, this is several. In the case of an executioner, it's still just 1.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Or... you know, if they deepstrike... or get a one to consolidate out of close combat. Or other things that FORCE them to be clustered.

Right, I'll go ahead and whip out my lash prince, and... oh... we're talking about guard.

Yes, in the case of deepstriking, the executioner can do lots of damage, but this is assuming your opponent is going to be dumb enough to deepstrike right next to your executioner without bringing guns that will instantly put it down from that range.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Yes. Yes a vehicle is, things that don't have templates, or vehicles that have multiple templates... executioner dcomes to mind?

So you're saying that the executioner is good against a 2" spaced conga line?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Dense. Five templates, equal 10 hits. Assume an on target or two appear. Roll to wound, kill.

Definitely. If, of course, your opponent is clustering his troops in front of 5 plasma cannons...

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Don't bring up terrain, it is a large part of the game.

Any other large parts of the game you'd like me to ignore?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

awesomesause.

Cute.

Not as cute as you:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:6. Hehehehe. So. You're saying it is an awful lot like a chimera with dual heavy flamers? >.>

Shoot. I didn't read "against spiky marines". Oh, well. >.>

Anyway, I like the vanilla LRBT. It's just classic, and it costs less than some of the others. I never feel bad about putting sponsons on it, like I do with some of the other varieties.

IMO, for experience LRBT as first choice, with a wide options of sponson weapons and the excellent main cannon its a undoubtful option for the people who wants the best "tank for everything"

DEmolisher is my second option, is good as the LRBT but with shorter range and upper armor and artillery

other options i haven't used yet, but seems that the old executioner is a really good friend for foot-slogging guardsmen

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Or... you know, if they deepstrike... or get a one to consolidate out of close combat. Or other things that FORCE them to be clustered.

Right, I'll go ahead and whip out my lash prince, and... oh... we're talking about guard.

Yes, in the case of deepstriking, the executioner can do lots of damage, but this is assuming your opponent is going to be dumb enough to deepstrike right next to your executioner without bringing guns that will instantly put it down from that range.

Or you know... since the guns have 36", it can easily shoot at units that deepstrike in THAT BIG RADIUS.

So many problems in your posts, I give up, you'll just always pull out something to attempt to get an upper hand. You're against most of dakka with your so-called "arguments".

You know what? I quit this thread, you're almost a stubborn donkey-cave. You really just love giving out horrid advice.

I am adding you to the ignore, and being done with you, the rest of dakka can have three page arguments with you.

See ya.

The Punisher will be able to dump Heavy 20 on a squad of CSM and hopefully destroy them.

There are apparently at least 10 people on this forum that smoke copious amounts of crack on a daily basis, and chase it with a thimble-full of heroin. These people voted for the Punisher and Vanquisher. Others have already made the case against the Punisher.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:I agree with the general who-blah about the executioner. It can mess up almost anything on a C:CSM list. Turrets make this even more killy, and its almost certain to make back its points unless they target it first.

My personal toy: the Vanquisher. I love everything about this tank. It can outshoot Tau and Eldar, and gives the +1d6, without the melta rule (stormraven anyone?). This kills Land Raiders and other things from almost twice the distance. And theres no risk of scatter, it hits or it misses, so you dont have to worry about being close to the enemy your shooting at (well, more worried then you are about being assaulted) IF you run out of armor to shoot at its Str. 8 AP 2, so light up some TEQs, like Abaddon.

What does its horrendous accuracy have to do with not being close to the target? A LRBT or Executioner is no more or less accurate at any range as long as it is WITHIN range. Those Tau and Eldar (by the way, no extra die against waveserpents) die just as easy to autocannons. Land Raiders can be destroyed by any number of other options that will do the job better, as well as being more effective against any number of other targets.

The Vanquisher sucks, plain and simple. You miss half the time (50%), then hope the LR doesn't have cover from smoke or a rhino (50%), then hope to penetrate (56%), then hope to roll at least a 4 on the damage chart so you can at least stop it from delivering its payload in your face (50%). So we're looking at about a 7% chance to immobilize or destroy a Land Raider in one shot, and you'll only get at best two before its in your face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:
But a lot more than even all 5 shots of an executioner. Plus, spreading out means that you can still get the same amount of hits with a scatter more easily. In the case of a large blast template, this is several. In the case of an executioner, it's still just 1.

We recently had this debate, and again as usual you spout complete nonsense based in imagined theoryhammer that doesn't occur in reality (much like your completely BS analysis of autocannons based on some sort of nth dimension chaos math). A LRBT usually either hits 4-5 models, or scatters way off base. Against the same cluster of models, a direct hit or low scatter from a plasmagun will tag 2-3. Do you realize that a 3" template can easily tag two models 2" apart? No, of course not, your analysis is again based on the Ailaros-math where 2" magically becomes 4" because that supports your flimsy argument.

With three shots rather than one (since both can buy sponsons, although then you're mixing AP values), you're likely to get at least one direct hits, so even if every other shot scatters way off-base, an executioner is practically guaranteed to kill at least something. Your suggestion to just spread out to max coherency isn't always an option. If you're trying to huddle in a piece of cover, you're clustered. If you're trying to avoid cover so it doesn't slow you down, you're clustered. If you just assaulted something, you're clustered. If you just piled out of a destroyed transport, you're clustered. If there is impassable terrain like buildings on the table, you're clustered. But what's the point, it didn't sink in before and it won't sink in now. As my fellow Inquisitor so aptly stated, you are "as stubborn as a donkey-cave". I'm not 100% on what that means, but it sounds right.

Ok everyone Thank You for you comments and I mulled it over ,and built a Leman Russ Vanquisher with heavy bolter hull gun and plasma cannon sponsons .

You built possibly the worst possible variant you could have! Wow, you really deserve a medal and I'm not at all kidding. You're trying to get one tank to do everything, mixing roles and APs willynilly, all to accomplish nothing! I think you just broke the universe! Please come back with battle reports, because I'm genuinely dying to know how that crazy amalgam does.

I like the Exterminator with Plasma Sponsons and a hull heavy bolter

Douhet wrote:Ok everyone Thank You for you comments and I mulled it over ,and built a Leman Russ Vanquisher with heavy bolter hull gun and plasma cannon sponsons .

Terminus wrote:You built possibly the worst possible variant you could have!

lol. Lemme think....

....

Nope, Terminus is right, I'm pretty sure that that is, in fact, the worst possible variant you could take.

Executioner,lots of AP2 marine/light vehicular death and it ignores FNP as well.You can put a LC on it as well to add a little more punch.

Douhet wrote:Ok everyone Thank You for you comments and I mulled it over ,and built a Leman Russ Vanquisher with heavy bolter hull gun and plasma cannon sponsons .

I...bu...wha...

Terminus wrote:You built possibly the worst possible variant you could have!

This.

Seriously dude, did you pay any attention to this thread at all? Or to Guard in general? I can't even begin to describe the sheer amount of fail in that tank that you just built.

L. Wrex

EDIT: And to that extent, why even bother with this poll? The clear winners are the LRBT and the Executioner. Why ask for people's opinions and then ignore them utterly? I can only believe that this entire thread was an arbitrary exercise in pointlessness.

Terminus wrote:You built possibly the worst possible variant you could have! Wow, you really deserve a medal and I'm not at all kidding. You're trying to get one tank to do everything, mixing roles and APs willynilly, all to accomplish nothing! I think you just broke the universe! Please come back with battle reports, because I'm genuinely dying to know how that crazy amalgam does.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:This.

Seriously dude, did you pay any attention to this thread at all? Or to Guard in general? I can't even begin to describe the sheer amount of fail in that tank that you just built.

L. Wrex

Ok, I get that sarcasm is hard to read from a forum, but this was a pretty clear case of that very phenomenon. Lighten up guys!

I've always found the combination of 2 vanilla LRBT and a Punisher pretty useful. Making a squadron if you want an additional Basilisk or other HS choices. The Punisher (Pask = optional) does very well agains monstrous creatures and the 20 dice just give a sense of fulfillment.

i think the punisher should only be runned with pask in it haha. imo.

Ailaros wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Wrong. About point 1.

Fine, VIRTUALLY the same.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Point 2 can be said about all tanks. It is arbitrary because we are talking about the effectivness of single tanks, not entire armies, yes while you can fit a chimera and a LRBT, the executioner trumps the LRBT, at an expenditure of points alot of people wouldn't pay.

But this is inane. Yes, if we're looking in a total vacuum in perfect circumstances the most damage a single imperial guard vehicle can put out is a pask executioner. How is this useful for list building?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ok, though if you spread the models out enough, you will hit alot less with the battle tank. As well as you have one template which is prone to scattering completely off course.

But a lot more than even all 5 shots of an executioner. Plus, spreading out means that you can still get the same amount of hits with a scatter more easily. In the case of a large blast template, this is several. In the case of an executioner, it's still just 1.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Or... you know, if they deepstrike... or get a one to consolidate out of close combat. Or other things that FORCE them to be clustered.

Right, I'll go ahead and whip out my lash prince, and... oh... we're talking about guard.

Yes, in the case of deepstriking, the executioner can do lots of damage, but this is assuming your opponent is going to be dumb enough to deepstrike right next to your executioner without bringing guns that will instantly put it down from that range.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Yes. Yes a vehicle is, things that don't have templates, or vehicles that have multiple templates... executioner dcomes to mind?

So you're saying that the executioner is good against a 2" spaced conga line?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Dense. Five templates, equal 10 hits. Assume an on target or two appear. Roll to wound, kill.

Definitely. If, of course, your opponent is clustering his troops in front of 5 plasma cannons...

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Don't bring up terrain, it is a large part of the game.

Any other large parts of the game you'd like me to ignore?

that little part made me laugh pretty good.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

awesomesause.

Cute.

Not as cute as you:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:6. Hehehehe. So. You're saying it is an awful lot like a chimera with dual heavy flamers? >.>

WTF was that?

Eh, I voted Executioner, as mine has done some good work for me the last few games. I have consistently run a LR vanquisher in my list, but I'm probably going to drop it in favor of bringing back my LR demolisher or maybe my basilik, both of which have been benchwarming lately.

Guys, guys, guys! I just figured out how to make the Executioner better. What you clearly need to do is give it a lascannon to give it another shot, and if you add Pask, you can make the lascannon BS4 also!!! Oh, and since that gives us a BS4 tank, lets toss a HK missile on there.

No? No one?

Seriously, didn't we just have one of these Russ conversations within the last 5 days? This couldn't have been lumped in there?

Also, LRBT or LRD for the win. The jobs all other tanks are designed for can be done so much better with something else:

Executioner = Plasma CCS in chimera (and that breaks my heart)
Eradicator = Colossus
Exterminator = Hydra
Punisher = ANYTHING
Vanquisher = Deep Striking Melta Stormtroopers

All the above are cheaper versions of what it would take to field the effective version of the tank. And I say that admitting full well that I'm a treadhead who LOVE russes.

A plasma CCS is far from comparable to an executioner. The executioner has three times the effective range, averages more hits, never overheats, and is a lot more durable.

So you'd pay 45 points more for something that (as Ailaros pointed out) averages 1 hit per blast template and only gets 5 shots if it stands completely still? The odds of losing a plasma guy are 8% per shot. That's more than zero, I understand, but there are a lot of other nifty benefits that outweigh that:

- Cheaper
- More potential hits (with roughly the same average at BS4)
- Can move and fire
- Can bail out and still fire in case vehicle gets stunned (as opposed to being worthless for a round)
- Can take orders to twin-link (No more TMCs)
- Weapon destroyed doesn't eliminate > 50% of the firing power.
- Even a worst case hit on the vehicle for a given weapon, assume lascannon (6 for Pen'ed, 6 for Exploded) still doesn't eliminate the plasma killing power.

I'm not saying it doesn't have drawbacks. I'm saying if I had a 230 point hole in my army, I'd take the CCS first and then use the excess points for upgrades elsewhere any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, I am neglecting one solid benefit that would make me consider taking the Executioner: The intimidation factor.

Nothing scarier than having an army full of vendettas, executioners, and demolishers. Of course, if you can maintain a cool head in spite of all of that, then shock and awe isn't an issue. At any rate, my previous comment still stands.

And I already pointed out that his argument that you only average 1 hit per template is misguided and wrong.

Weapon destroyed may eliminate 50% of the firepower, but it has to crack AV14. A shaken or stun glancing hit eliminates 100% of the firepower, unless you want to disembark and risk your 5 guardsmen to return fire... if you still have five left aver overheats. It's a lot more than 8% of you consider all the shots and weapons. And you have to be within 12" of your target to really make the best of it, which exposes you to all sorts of assaults and meltaguns.

So yes, I'd pay 45 more points for a more lethal and survivable tank (that gets 4 shots if it moves by the way) that can draw enemy firepower, and then use my CCS for something more useful, like keeping my army together with a standard and issuing reliable orders with a vox.

The CCS vs. Executioner debate is a serious apples vs. oranges debate for me. they both serve different roles and i have a need for both.

Ailaros wrote:LRBT.

As said, it makes marines who don't feel pain feel pain. As well, if you give it the bolter boat upgrade, you can be good against demons as well (lots of shots to get through those obnoxious ++ saves).

The executioner wouldn't be so great here. The thing is that your opponent can always spread out so that you're only hitting a single CSM/demons per hit, whereas you're always taking down at least a couple with a battlecannon hit.

*cringe* Don't mention those tanks. I have nightmares about those tanks!

As far as the plasma russ vs vanilla goes- your paying points for something that i often find less effective unless your vs'ing TEQ's. But CSM doesn't really operate terminator heavy, and the points you save goes into more annoying bodies between the CSM and the tank.

Jihallah wrote:*cringe* Don't mention those tanks. I have nightmares about those tanks!

I'm bloody serious too, I have Nightmares about Vanilla russ tanks! The bane of my CSM existance (The Number ONE bane!)


-edit- woah woah woah. Everyone has missed a HUGE point in this CSM vs Russ discussion.

Rhino's.


Argue spacing all you want, but when that spacing has to be in the foot print of a rhino, you tell me how you are going to avoid several hits!

Honestly, one turn kill on a CSM squad, blow the rhino, basilisk/leman russ the survivors. The only hope they have is you rolling a 1 to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:

Douhet wrote:Ok everyone Thank You for you comments and I mulled it over ,and built a Leman Russ Vanquisher with heavy bolter hull gun and plasma cannon sponsons .

Terminus wrote:You built possibly the worst possible variant you could have!

lol. Lemme think....

....

Nope, Terminus is right, I'm pretty sure that that is, in fact, the worst possible variant you could take.

It's like he gave birth to an abomination which immediately gurgled "Kill me pleeaasssssssssssssee, put me out of my misssssssssssseerrryyy"

I see a huge advantage with the template firing Russ Variants. The lack of using BS makes them much better for the fact that even if it scatters, it will probably still be on target.

The Executioner, while expensive, is a mighty deterrent to any weedy infantry running around in the open. Even in cover, your bound to get lots of hits since the models need to be in the cover to actually benefit from it. I will gladly take 5 S7 AP2 Shots that can annihilate any infantry and almost always wound on a 2 (on Infantry at least).

The Punisher is points inefficient, but not a bad tank if it is used correctly. It can mow down MC's and IC's just through weight of fire. It doesn't even have to deny Armor Saves, just force scads of saves and watch them drop. And when facing light infantry, I would take nothing else (i.e. Nids, Orks, Eldar)

Haven't been able to use the Eradicator, but I imagine it is sick nasty in city fighting and dense terrain. Throw on some Heavy Flamers and a Bolter on the front to make it really deadly to infantry.

Same with the Exterminator, I like the concept, but it needs to be cheapened up.

The Vanquisher gets an unnecessary bad rap, yes it has niche, but so does every unit that isn't spammed to death. It's a great and mobile Tank killer. Naked it is great for armor killing, boltered out it's great for being your mobile fire base (with more punch than a Chimera), Plasma and Multi meltas make it incredibly lethal at too short of range to be worth it, Heavy Flamers are silly for this tank. So it really isn't that bad, and dogmatically relying on numbers is also very silly.

The Demolisher is a great all around killer. It really can dish it out and take it too. I used to run it more when there was an Ordnance Damage Table (always hoping for that 6 on a penetrating roll!), I plan on getting the new all plastic kit too as I am trying to only have metal infantry, if any at all. Can't really go wrong when taking this tank.

Of course the LRBT is the best for the Points and has the greatest balance of Damage output to cost. I still have my Russ from the Old Guard Battle Force when you got 20 Catachans, 2 Sentinels and a Russ. I love that tank.

To Terminus used it in a battle vs my friend who plays Tau hulled his hammerhead 1st turn, also killed alot of his kroot. I'm not writing a major battle report on it since it was a friendly "get back in game after a vacation" game and while i appreciate your advice I would like to note that every tank has a weakness and Iwon by the by so thank you for your concern . oh and forgot to mention i took Knight Commander Pask as an Upgrade.

The Vanquisher is probably the worst statisticaly, It does however (IME) have a talent for beating the statistics, the fact is that even with pask and a Lascannon it costs less than the targets its designed to take out (ie, landraiders) . and the fact is that a very large number (i would say a majority) of people play marines of one sort or another (blue, red, green, emo, bikey, spikey, puppys, etc...) and at some stage they are going to field a Land Raider. So this tank wich is supposedly narrow in priority target scope manages to be relavent against quite a few armies. Te fact that it is ineffective vs Monoliths is a bit moot considering a) most sensible people just shoot everything else and cause a phase out, and b) Very few people play Necrons due to the aforementioned (at least IME).

And for those of us who dont like to see our supposedly experienced veterans CC'd into mush after they kill something, the Pasquisher is a fun option, which will start saving people money now that it comes as an option with the new Russ kit (yes, interchangeable weapons ) and they dont have to go buying more stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just @ anyone in particular who wants to argue about the Max spacing issue, let me put it like this. If you are in a position to keep your entire force at max coherency you are either playing on a table with effectively 0 terrain/cover or your playing static. the first of which doesnt happen very often and the second is probably a bad idea.

The only time your squads will be at max coherency will be turns 1-2 since you deployed them that way.

Personaly i think its a cheap and crapy tactic and if you did it playing against me i would call you something very unkind

So, I think it's also important to remember that a regular russ can take plasma cannon sponsons if you want. Really, this is a question of if three plasma cannons is 40 points better than a single battlecannon.

If your opponent excersizes proper spacing, the executioner will kill one, maybe two. The battle cannon will kill more like 4-6. In the case of spacing, the fact that the battle cannon's radius is greater than the maximum spacing means that it has a huge leg up, even if it has fewer shots.

If your opponent is more reasonably spaced, but is in cover, both battlecannon and 3 plasma cannons are likely to kill about 4, so no real difference.

If your opponent is in close-order drill in a circle out of cover, the executioner kills about 15-20 to the battlecannon's 6-10.

What does this mean? It means that which does more damage is HIGHLY dependent upon your opponent. If your opponent is a consistant idiot and deepstrikes in front of your executioners, but attacks something else, or they rush into close combat right in front of your executioner, then yes, the executioner will do more damage. If your opponent is competent, however, the executioner will do much less damage.

As such, the executioner is basically a regular russ that you spend 40 points more to handle a few other jobs less poorly, and to waste noobs. Insetead, I'd rather handle those other jobs (like MC duty) with better weapons, and assume that my opponent won't be an idiot around plasma cannon blasts. Plus, if my opponent was really such a noob, and I knew this in advance, I'd just bring a deathstrike for much cheaper.

Ailaros wrote:If your opponent is in close-order drill in a circle out of cover, the executioner kills about 15-20 to the battlecannon's 6-10.

if your opponent is in close order drill, you're not playing 5th ed.