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Typical Melissia, gloss over anything that contradicts your bigoted view point.

I have provided background sources, I even quoted your own source, which you failed to do and it does not support your argument at all.

Whatever, sources that include Codex: Assassins (First Edition), Dark Heresy, Dark Heresy: The Radical's Handbook, The Eisenhorn Omnibus.

And a quotation, 'Pariahs are often treated like outcasts or lepers, rejected by their parents and banished from their settlements. Local superstitions warn about touching them, saying that to do so would bring bad luck.'

Now since you have not provided one single quote I ask you to now provide one which states that people don't know about Untouchables, and no, simply saying what about the Ciaphas Cain series is neither a quote or example

Gogsnik wrote:Perhaps I should have restrained myself to simply saying factions but since I wasn't making a direct quote it didn't seem important but I hadn't taken into account a tedious pedant like yourself;

If you can't see fit to continue the discussion without the need for name-calling, I would recommend finding a different way to spend your time.

If ordinary people are as ignorant about Untouchables as you seem to think, despite all the background which tells us the opposite, then why would Betancore have a clue what Eisenhorn was talking about?

Because he's not 'ordinary people'... he's a part of an Inquisitor's retinue, and had been for some time...

insaniak wrote:Because he's not 'ordinary people'... he's a part of an Inquisitor's retinue, and had been for some time...

Which then neither prooves nor disprooves Betancore's knowledge of Untouchables prior to being Eisenhorn's pilot. Again, ignoring Codex: Assassins.

Gogsnik wrote:'Pariahs are often treated like outcasts or lepers, rejected by their parents and banished from their settlements. Local superstitions warn about touching them, saying that to do so would bring bad luck.'

Which does not mean that they know what a Pariah/Untouchable/Blank/etc is, but rather, it is evidence of the Blank's aura having an effect on normal humans-- they believe the Blank is "cursed". Notice the use of "local superstitions". This doesn't indicate any sort of universal knowledge of the existence of Blanks. Indeed, despite your not liking Cain as a source Commissar Ciaphas Cain-- trained at the Schola Progenium and knowledgeable far beyond any ordinary civilian-- had no idea what a Blank is, or even that such a thing could exist, until Inquisitor Vail told him about it.

Think about it this way: people might "know" about "witches", but that doesn't mean they know what a psyker is, or anything at all about psykers aside from that they're dangerous. They wouldn't know about sorcery, or quite frankly WANT to know about it, and they'd probably be scared ****less if they found out. And the majority doesn't know much about the ruinous powers aside from that they're bad and they'll be killed for worshiping them, if they even know that much (it varies from world to world).

As for me providing a quotation, you have already simply dismissed every source I have mentioned thus far out of hand, so I am not going to bother finding different ones, and instead use your source to argue. Note that I have not dismissed your sources, instead I merely suggest you are misinterpreting them. I can see why you might interpret the statements the way you have, but I believe you are very much mistaken.

The Fox Lord wrote:@Melissia: Agreed, most people outside of the Inquasition or uper admistration wouldn't know much, if anything about Blanks. The only Blanks I can think of being widely known, and then more as ghost stories & boogymen, are The Sisters of Silence.

Double agreed. The whole point of Pariahs is that they're....pariahs. They blend into the background as "unseen" people and live short, miserable lives.

I wouldn't expect that as soon as, as Dark Heresy puts it, folks, meet someone strange who makes their skin crawl they jump to the quite remote conclusion that that person is an Untouchable but the background clearly shows that ordinary folks having an understanding of the term.

I agree with your points about Psykers, ordinary folks may not know the technical reasons for why a psyker is a psyker but if someone mentions the term or points the finger then most people know what they mean and the same goes for Untouchables otherwise there would be no superstitions about them of any kind, no-one would be able to say, never touch an Untouchable, if they have never heard the term Untouchable or heard about people with strange and chilling effects on those around them.

Originally I said, 'the effects of such an individual cannot be missed' and that is exactly what every source says with a variation of 'ordinary humans can barely stand to be in the same room as one'. You then argued that the effect of an Untouchable can only be recognised by a select few which is nonsense when the background says the opposite; that people can't stand to be around an Untouchable.

You asserted first that the effect cannot be felt by any save a select few which then changed to people can feel the effect but wouldn't know what it means and I provided the original source which says that people have superstitions about Untouchables which strongly suggests that 1. as I originally said, the effect of an Untouchable cannot be missed because it provokes such a strong reaction and 2. people are aware of people who are Untouchable enough to be able to warn each other about Untouchables.

To highlight the point I am making, and which it seems you have missed, we can look to Necromunda where some people believe that 'outside', 'the sun' and 'other worlds' are myths. However, despite believing these things to be myths, if someone mentions 'the sun' then those people know what the other person is talking about and my position on Untouchables and ordinary Imperial Citizens is the same, in accordance with the background, that people have heard the term Untouchable. It does not follow from what I have said or argued that every single person has heard the term, there will always be someone who doesn't know this or that and just because Sandy Mitchell chose to have his character not know the term is not conclusive evidence.

I have never said, nor would say, that ordinary people have a deep understanding for the biological and technical reasons as to why a person is an Untouchable or that they would be highly educated about the causes for the effects Untouchables casue only that they can feel those effects and have heard the term Untouchable just as they have heard the term Psyker which you have just raised.

you have already simply dismissed every source I have mentioned thus far out of hand

No I haven't. You mentioned two novels, one which is a rip-off of the Flashman series which in any event highlights that Cain was 'baffled' when Vail mentioned the term and the other which also has flaws but which I was able to quote to reinforce my argument where you had said no-one knew Bequin was an Untouchable even though the book itself doesn't say any such thing - people may have superstitions about Untouchables but that doesn't mean they are going to listen to them, Bequin could be a case in point but the book does not say one way or the other.

I believe you are very much mistaken

And I believe you are very much mistaken since you have failed to answer my questions to you (something I notice you do a lot when people ask you to provide evidence) and have provided no quotes from sources which say that the term Untouchable is one known only to a select few as you have said.

I am not going to bother

No, I don't suppose you will and I don't find it very surprising.

Gogsnik wrote:the background clearly shows that ordinary folks having an understanding of the term.

Prove it.

You make this claim, yet provide no evidence for it. That is the entire basis for contention.

I've provided plenty of evidence but what I should have done is followed your example and just not bothered.

Why don't you provide some evidence to back up your claim and we can continue the discussion from there.

Gogsnik wrote:I've provided plenty of evidence

Then direct me to it, for I have not yet seen you post evidence that actually proves this statement:

Gogsnik wrote:the background clearly shows that ordinary folks having an understanding of the term [Pariah/Blank/Untouchable/Etc.].

(clarification mine)
Enlighten me. What was this supposed evidence?

Seriously? That's your tactic for debate is it, simply ignore everything someone says?

You know exactly what sources I have used, and what quotes I have used and how I have explained how those sources and quotes back up my assertion that ordinary people know the term Untouchable.

And let us be clear, when you first attacked me it was not because I had said ordinary people knew the term Untouchable it was because I said, 'the effects of such an individual cannot be missed'.

You claim the opposite, you claim that the effects of an Untouchable cannot be felt by anyone save a tiny number of peoplel and that the term/word Untouchable is known only to a tiny number or people.

I invite you again to provide a source and a quote which explicitly backs up your claim. Provide a source and a quote which tell us in no uncertain terms that only a tiny number of people know the term Untouchable. I will happily recant my posiition if you can.

1: Yes, I do know what sources you have used. The quotes you provided have not proven your point that "clearly" everyone knows what a Blank is. There are local superstitions about particular Blanks-- just like there are superstitions IRL about specific people (she's a witch I tell you! etc etc). But there is no proof that there is some sort of universal knowledge that would make someone think "oh, they're a Blank!".

2: You said this:

Gogsnik wrote:Since the effects of such an individual cannot be missed there isn't even the possibility of accidentally recruiting such a person and since even in the more 'liberal' Chapters psykers are viewed with suspicion, it seems more likely that any Untouchables discovered by Astartes would be destroyed on sight.

And THAT is what I was opposed to-- the entire sentence. Not that one part. I do not believe Astartes would destroy a Blank, especially if they knew what the Blank really is.

3a: I never claimed that.
3b: And I provided a source for this.

4: I did. For the Emperor by Sandy Mitchell makes it quite clear that most people wouldn't know-- if a Schola-trained Commissar doesn't know, then the common citizen would know even less. And most people who are around Jurgen don't know of his power/curse, either. You dismissed the source out of hand, however.

1. I never said ordinary people would say "oh, they're a blank!" I said people knew the word.

2. You're are entitled to that opinion but that is all it is. To date there are no Pariah Space Marines.

3a. You did claim that. I said the effects cannot be missed, you said that the aura can only be recognised by those who know what to look for.
3b. No you didn't.

4. The book does not say anything about what other people know or do not know about Jurgen other than that they avoid him and he avoids them (the effects of his nature being unmissable as I say), saying that because one man, Cain, was unfamiliar with the word blank does not proove what trillions of other people know or do not know, that is merely your supposition. Also it is unclear if Cain actually did attend a Schola, he says he did but Vail found no evidence of it and makes reference to Cain being a pathological liar so who knows what education Cain recieved and if he actually was telling the truth and did attend a Schola the Drill-Abbots are not likely to promulgate the same superstitions that ordinary folk will about so called 'Untouchables'. Other than the fact that the series is a rip-off of Flashman and meant to be humorous, Cain's constant lying and embellishment makes the series a doubly unreliable source of background.


Since you either lack the means or integrity to provide a source and quote to back up your assertions I am going to disengage myself from this conversation now because talking to you Melissia is like a broken pencil, pointless.

If people could avoid insulting each other, follow the forum rules and politely disagree that'd save me from having to lock the thread and hand out suspensions etc etc.

Asherian Command wrote:

Kogwar wrote:from what i understand blanks are surrounded by a ffeidl fo dread that woudl put off most chaplains and psykers heck they may be even kileld on the spot.

Uhhh. What? A Source would be good to prove that please. Chaplains are psychic sensitivity. They would not die. Librarians, are trained to deal with alot of stuff, i don't think they would be harmed, it would just be painful.

Eisenhorn book one chapter 5 I beleave I leant it to a friend so i can't check. Also in flight of i the eseinstein when Garro meets the sisters. I think they would be killed by more zelous chaplains who are shoot first ask later which alot are.

Melissia wrote:And just for laughs, make that Black Space Marine happen to be female

Well i wouldnt mind a hot black Space Marine chick runnin around with my army of Marines

edit: and would people please stop feeding eachother this half assed "troll food" that seems to keep the argument goin, you have allready made a MOD notice, congrats

Dark Heresy, tabletop rules, and the Cain books all say otherwise, Kogwar. The former basically has a penalty to fellowship as the downsides to being a Blank (half starting fellowship, and then a further -20 towards psykers).

Indeed, for Psykers, most blanks would be unpleasant to say the least-- but not necessarily painful or deadly. The strongest Blanks might be painful-- Jurgen caused an already mentally unstable psyker to spaz out and pass out foaming at the mouth, but that's not really a fair comparison as other psykers in the Cain stories didn't seem to know where the effect came from. And similarly, Eisenhorn found contact with another strong Blank physically painful I believe, but it didn't actually do any lasting damage.

Chaplains aren't psychic, I doubt they'd have any reason to kill Blanks. More likely than not they would forward them to the Inquisition (Astartes chapters know at least slightly more than the average human after all).

Melissia wrote:Dark Heresy, tabletop rules, and the Cain books all say otherwise, Kogwar. The former basically has a penalty to fellowship as the downsides to being a Blank (half starting fellowship, and then a further -20 towards psykers).

Indeed, for Psykers, most blanks would be unpleasant to say the least-- but not necessarily painful or deadly. The strongest Blanks might be painful-- Jurgen caused an already mentally unstable psyker to spaz out and pass out foaming at the mouth, but that's not really a fair comparison as other psykers in the Cain stories didn't seem to know where the effect came from. And similarly, Eisenhorn found contact with another strong Blank physically painful I believe, but it didn't actually do any lasting damage.

Chaplains aren't psychic, I doubt they'd have any reason to kill Blanks. More likely than not they would forward them to the Inquisition (Astartes chapters know at least slightly more than the average human after all).

I think you guys miss understand what i am sayign i am saying they have a unplesant arua about them and it is more likely the MARINES would kill the blank i was not insinuating the other way around.

Yes, they have an unpleasant aura around them. So does a thug or a criminal or a homeless person or (arguably, depending on how you view fanaticism) a ministorum preacher.

Blanks/Pariahs are real!

But from what i understand it is alot more intense and tangable.

Yet intangible enough that Blanks/Pariahs can go their entire lives as merely unpopular people who are unpleasant to be around.

That's why I think pariahs might be as common as psykers. Just like there's a lot of minor and nascent psykers there's a lot of "street people" or homeless who are probably pariahs of some degree. They just get ignored. Makes sense from a The-universe-is-balanced-with-opposties kind of way.

Untouchables occur in less than one in every billion.

Considering the attitude of the Imperium towards psykers, heretics and mutants, I can't imagine that average joe would know what an untouchable is or even of their existence. Just doesnt make any sense. All that occurs to the average imperial citizen (IMHO) is that they don't like a particular individual, possibly for no particular reason. Needless to say, Pariahs are another matter, generally just being loather entirely.

The Exorcists SM chapter are the only "blank" chapter I can think of check the link for more info on them.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exorcists

They're not blank wuite the opposite. They've actually been possed by demons. Something that impossible for blanks.

Melissia wrote:Yes, they have an unpleasant aura around them. So does a thug or a criminal or a homeless person or (arguably, depending on how you view fanaticism) a ministorum preacher.

Need I begin to address the ignorance behind the quoted statement?

I don't mean to thread necromancy this thread, especially after it has had a bit of nasty history. However I noticed it on page two after being posted weeks ago and re-read everybody's responses. Exorcist chapter is interesting.

The reason I ask is that I have been interesting in writing fluff for a possible Legion II, where due to their particular geneseed and training, they would range from mild blanks to omega-minus and beyond dependant on age and other factors.

It was my intent to write about how the Emperor knew all about Daemons and the Eye of Terror even during and before the Great Crusade. He wanted to have a specific anti-chaos legion, and they served this purpose well; although their Primarch could never be sucessfully located because the warp jump/theft by the chaos gods failed and killed him in transit.

They were eventually sent on a secret research mission along with elements of the ad-mech and a large "research sample" of human beings to the Eye of Terror via a zigzag route stopping along other points of interest. This trip took decades and it was some centuries before they returned to make their report.

They had performed experiments on daemon posession, warp influence, and warp travel. Including short "blind" (without a navigator) and "naked" (without activating the Geller Field) warp movements to thest the effects of the Warp on Blanks, non-Psychic material, and humans.

These experiments were done under the best practical psuedo-scientific conditions, but nowhere near what we would consider objective scientific methods.

Upon their return, almost everyone from the initial expedition except the marines themselves was dead or unaccounted for; and the marines themselves had taken significant casualties including several cruisers.

They reported directly and personally to the Emperor in a non-descript location in orbit over a dead world. In addition to the raw research data that they gathered, the leaders of the legion posed what they believed to be a reasonable question:

"Since all psykers, and almost all of humanity are totally vulnerable to warp related maladies given lengthy and significant exposure to the warp; and given that from our interrogations of people in various stages of possesion, we know about the Chaos Gods and have a working understanding of what they are and how warp entities function; what conclusion can we possibly come to about humanity's most powerful psyker besides the obvious? Are you or are you not attempting to enslave humanity into empowering yourself to become a True God, in this world and that one?"

This report was recieved and no asnwer to the question was given. the entire legion, still numbering in the high thousands aboard dozens of ships, was officially exiled forever from Imperial Space. These loyal Marines, however, complied with the order without question and travelled towards the nearest galactic area of unexplored space. Afterwards all history of the legion was erased forever from Imperial records by order of the emperor. The Horus Heresy occured many thousands of years later, and the Legion only learned of it, and the fate of the Emperor himself, only centuries after that. It did not make much difference to them, or change their outlook or goals in any meaningful way.

This Legion was formerly called the Nullifyers; although it is now an alliance among several ideological factions. They are pirates, salvagers and mercenaries in Xeno space; avoiding the Imperium of Man entirely where possible. Ever since the Inquisition has been made aware of their presence, it has attempted to hunt them down as traitors and heretics. Although the Inquisition itself is more or less ignorant of any of the above events, the mere existence of un-registered Space Marines is justification for extermination.

These attempts have been unsucessful so far, hindered by the difficulty of actually locating the Legion's main fleet; and even when possible, the Fleets willingness to escape into the Warp regardless of the present state of the warp currents and even directly into warp storms.

They are aware of the existence of Chaos Space Marines, but regard them with no more or less hate or respect than their loyalist counterparts; Both, by their view, serving fundamentally simular masters. The fate of Humanity, or the galaxy, is no longer their primary or even terticiary concern. They are superhumans, hardier and more veteran than most contemporary chapters (some having participated in the earliest parts of the Great Crusade), but totally without loyalty or Duty to anyone other than the Legion's leadership. (which is itself a coalition of the various ideological factions that have developed before and after their exile).