Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

CajunMan550 wrote:3 HBs Pask and Heavy stubber make this thing so much fun.

Ineffective, sure, but I will grant you that it would be a hoot and a half.

Here are my first 10 dice.... Here are my second 10 dice... Here are my second... TO LAST... ten dice...

It would almost be worth choking out the 600 points just to roll 126 dice with 3 vehicles.

... and then FRFSRFing your infantry...

CajunMan550 wrote:I really like it but with it you gotta go big or go home. 3 HBs Pask and Heavy stubber make this thing so much fun. It makes MCs go away. Which is its main job then after that its great for taking out squad strailgers by overwhelming them with wounds.

I keep being on the verge of doing this, feeling like it might just cross the threshold from "fun only" to "mildly competitive", and then I always remember the main gun has 24" range.

Meh. It's still better than a warfish.

Wait, 20 + 9 + 3 = 32 shots a piece, times 3 equals 96 . . . what did I miss?

You missed me not having ever seriously consided a punisher long enough to know the correct number of shots that the punisher cannon puts out off the top of my head.

I suppose it's one of those things like ogryn (a group of 6 costing as much as a pask punisher) which puts down 73 S5/6 shots down per turn, and also costs a lot for some reasonable potential but is difficult to justify the cost of. At least ogryn are tough as nails.

There is a lot of hate to the Punisher for both it's 24" range and it's AP-.

However; It has front AV 14, so getting the Gun in Range is not as much of an Issue; especially if you leave the Hull weapon as a Heavy Bolter, and then add a Pintle Heavy Stubber. This allows you to Put out 6 Shots whilst on the move getting yourself to within the 24" to put out 26 shots. The Other thing to consider about the "low Range" is that in every scenario you should be able to deploy within 30-24" to begin with, meaning you will be in range to start firing on first turn.

Second detractor to most is the AP-. In 5th edition everything grants a cover save anyways so AP only really matters against vehicles(which is not the Primary target of the Punisher anyways). That Heavy Bolter you should be packing? when it fires on any given unit there is a good chance that unit will be getting a 4+ cover save anyways. So why worry about that unit getting it's armor save(or the 4+ cover save, whichever is better) since it would be getting that save anyways?

24 inches means you are in range nearly everything your opponent has. It means you are close enough they can potentially position for side shots. Those 20+ shots don't do much when you are hitting on 4s, having to wound, at your opponent usually saving on 4s or better. Depending on what you shoot at, its not worth the point for what you kill with it. Guard can get more efficient, and more effective dakka elsewhere.

The situations where the punisher is actually good: firing at tough models with hard saves, because they are worth a ton of points usually. Taking them out with torrent of fire is often worth the investment. Examples include: bikers, light skimmers (like land speeders) jet bikes, MCs, and terminators.

But for the most part, it is not worth it, as autocannons in squads work as well (and don't take valuable heavy slots)

Kommissar Kel wrote: It has front AV 14

Yes, but it also has...

Kommissar Kel wrote: it's 24" range

Which means...

notabot187 wrote: side shots

... and most importantly, close combat, which puts all of its attacks on the vehicle's rear.

If you're close enough to shoot with your punisher cannon, you're dangerously close enough to get WAAAAUGHed by power klaws, or jetpack chaplain powerfisted, or jetbiked wychbladed, or eviscerated or meltabombed (or even just meltagunned), etc.

I think it was something GW designed to kill hordes like Nids but realy didnt think it through. only thing its realy good for is pouring a ton of fire on MC s and hoping you get lucky

notabot187 wrote:24 inches means you are in range nearly everything your opponent has. It means you are close enough they can potentially position for side shots. Those 20+ shots don't do much when you are hitting on 4s, having to wound, at your opponent usually saving on 4s or better. Depending on what you shoot at, its not worth the point for what you kill with it. Guard can get more efficient, and more effective dakka elsewhere.

The situations where the punisher is actually good: firing at tough models with hard saves, because they are worth a ton of points usually. Taking them out with torrent of fire is often worth the investment. Examples include: bikers, light skimmers (like land speeders) jet bikes, MCs, and terminators.

But for the most part, it is not worth it, as autocannons in squads work as well (and don't take valuable heavy slots)

The problem is that IG is one of the best armies for doing weight of fire. Lots of Infantry will generally give you all the shots you need to take out things like termies. And yeah, autocannons will generally kick ass against the light skimmers.

I understand to a degree all the hate for the Punisher tank on this thread, but how many of you have used them proxied in more then a game or two just to see how they'll do?

I use a punisher regularly, and here's what I've gathered:
1) They are a lot more useful than a lot of you are giving them credit for. They work in quite a bit more situations then you'd think. Plus, since no one puts them high on target priority; they're free to run rampant until your opponent realizes the biggest nusiance in your army is rolling through their front lines, killing a few key guys here and there.

2) 24 inches is still half way across a table. It's bigger than you think.

3) Run it with a heavy flamer on the front, and nothing else. There are two reasons for this. The first being it's short range for a tank, you'll be able to fire the heavy flamer most of the time anyways which will give you AP and deny cover saves too (more wounds too!). The second point, being why ONLY a heavy flamer, is that this tank you always move if possible. With short range, it has to chase the enemy down. But it also means 4+ to hit in combat vs. rear AV 11.
Also, as tempting as it is to run Pask, he's not worth it in a Punisher. Sure, his BS 4 means you'll hit more, but it equates to only 4 more wounds vs. T 4, before saves (6 w/o, and 10 with). When you pay for Pask, you pay for his Crack Shot ability, which only works when it doesn't move and only affects vehicles and monsterous creatures. Vehicles make poor targets for Punishers (unless AV 10, then they're ok) and it desperately needs support vs. monsterous creatures.

Yes, there are better tanks out there for the points, but it's not as bad as everyone says. So to the OP, if you're going to proxy it, run it in probably 5 or 6 games instead of one or two and see how you like it.

psst... *whisper* IG players, if you don't like it, we Tau players will be more than happy to take it off of your hands.

Executioners are better, in all honesty. An executioner with 2 plasma cannons will probably do enough damage to kill an MC, and will vapourize termies, turn marines into swiss cheese, murder almost any infantry unit, fires 5 shots, all blast, and a squadron will just wtfpwn anything that lives. Oh, and keep the lascannon on the front.

darkdm wrote:
Yes, there are better tanks out there for the points, but it's not as bad as everyone says. So to the OP, if you're going to proxy it, run it in probably 5 or 6 games instead of one or two and see how you like it.

^^^
agreed, though this can be said about pretty much every variant besides the godaweful autocannon one, basic leman and executioner

Play a few with it and show your opponent it's crap. Then sneak pask in there one game and while he keeps the tank on low priority, show him the error of his ways.

this is devious and inventive. but i stioll would like to see vulture stats/tactics/opinions/sims etc. ive got valkyries just looking for some more fire support one russ isnt cutting it more russes or a vulture?

Best example of thread necromancy I've seen in a while. You didn't happen to notice that the previous message was posted five years ago?