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So selective preferred enemy: chaos marines that only some units get against some other units? Too complex

Not how I was saying it.

That would definitely not be fit for 5th edition. It's exactly as I said.

Choose an enemy squad and get preferred enemy against them for the game as they are believed to have one of the fallen with them.

grayspark wrote:
On the topic of preferred enemy, how about upgrading squad leaders to be part of the inner circle? Giving preferred enemy against a chosen enemy squad believed to house the fallen, or perhaps the enemy army as a whole? Seems to fit for the veterans (Sternguard and Vanguard)

Interesting, the wording seems to imply it is given to a squad leader. (Also DA don't have stern or vanguard)

Oh and "believed to house the fallen"? They usually know who they are hunting (well the inner circle/deathwing/ etc.). This would also be quite odd in a non Deathwing army, since they are the ones called in to specifically capture the Fallen and they know who they are looking for. Oh and prefered enemy would make little sense because they don't want to kill them.

They know exactly who they're hunting. The Ravenwing and Scout Veterans both operate as a combined intelligence gathering agency for the Inner Circle--who usually are operating based off a vision from Luther or intelligence gathered from other Fallen who've been interrogated.

Kanluwen wrote:They know exactly who they're hunting. The Ravenwing and Scout Veterans both operate as a combined intelligence gathering agency for the Inner Circle--who usually are operating based off a vision from Luther or intelligence gathered from other Fallen who've been interrogated.

No... only the Deathwing knows the (almost) full story. Ok maybe I wasn't specific enough. They may know they are hunting someone but they don't know about them being Fallen/what Fallen even are. Does the clarification help?

Erm, actually no you're wrong on that note.

Ravenwing are initiated into the same "secrets" as the Deathwing.

Both branches know about the Fallen and the schism that occurred.
However, they don't know about Luther or the actual reasons for the aforementioned schism. That part is reserved for the Inner Circle, which includes the Masters of each Company.

Either way, preferred enemy is a stupid thing to have.

Ummm no they are not.

When an Unforgiven is promoted to the Deathwing he learns many of the secrets of the Chapter. The biggest of these secrets is that of the betrayal of Luther and the subsequent death of their Primarch, Lion El'Jonson, as well as the ongoing hunt for The Fallen, those Dark Angels who joined Luther in their betrayal of the Emperor and the Imperium.

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwing

(bolded for your convinience)

So only those in the Deathwing/inner circle know of the hunt.

And?

Lexicanum's Ravenwing Entry wrote:The Ravenwing is the Second Company of the Dark Angels Space Marines Chapter. Like the First Company, The Deathwing, the Ravenwing are not part of the Codex Astartes structure system - although the remaining companies of the chapter adhere to the Codex.

The Ravenwing is a highly specialised formation where speed is more important than heavy firepower. To this end, all of the marines in the company ride into battle on bikes or Land Speeders. The Ravenwings hidden role within the chapter is that of mobile hunters, eternally prowling for their traitorous ancestors, The Fallen. Instead of the usual dark green panalopy of the rest of the chapter, the Ravenwing's armour and vehicles are painted jet black, echoing the original colours of the Dark Angels Legion.

The current Master of the Ravenwing is Sammael, who rides to battle on the last known surviving Imperial Jetbike. In previous editions of the game the Master of the Ravenwing could be fielded on a bike or custom Land Speeder.

According to the novel Descent of Angels, by Mitchel Scanlon, the origin of the Ravenwing dates back to pre-Imperial times; originating from a mounted cavalry section of The Order who rode black horses and "could survive alone in the deadly forests of Caliban, heroic figures in matt black armour and winged helms".

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ravenwing

Bolded for your convenience.

how is preferred enemy a crap rule? it is nothing like the D&D version which requires you to declare what your character hates. unless I am mistaken, preferred enemy allows for re-rolls in close combat against your enemy... period. no declaration of "well I hate Orks" has to be made and set in stone for the rest of the life of the army.

Intersting, 2 pieces of contradictory fluff. I assert that since it does not say that THEY know what the fallen are, I am still correct (example: I hunt deer but don't know what they are called. A friend describes my hunting expirience as "Crazy was hunting deer" though I have no idea what deer are.).

I do agree that preferred enemy would not work though.

I played DA in 3rd ed and really liked them. The ability to take more termies and more plasma coupled with the ravenwing kicking butt (remember re-roll diff terrain tests and the 6+ jink save.) It seems to me that they need something to make them different again. They have always been a stubborn and shooty army - they need rules that reflects this.

The question is how to do this withour overpowering them (Space Wolves.)

1)Keep the termy squad size at 5 but slighty lower the pts. As the 1st chapter they have more suits of terminator armor than anyone else, it should cost less. The lower cost is balanced by the fixed small squad size. 35pts would be reasonable, it would encourage more DW armies and fits the fluff of the army.

2)Make the ravenwing relevant. Their cost is way to high for the supposed benefits they get. Lower their cost similiar to codex marines.

3)More plasma! Maybe its my fond memories of 3rd but plasma was great. I'm not sure how to do this without going overboard.

Do remember though: those terminators are also fearless and have Deathwing assault.

The bikes too are fearless.

Either way, preferred enemy is a stupid thing to have.

How is preferred enemy a stupid thing to have?

Most of the Space Marine codexes (Blood Angels, Space Wolf) are getting quite a few things with preferred enemy, and it suits them.

It also suits the Dark Angels, so why is it a stupid thing to have?

I would like to see commanders with better abilities... especially Belial. Commander of the 1st company doesn't have Iron Halo? Even wearing terminator armor? C'mon...

And improve Deathwing Assault, maybe allow for assault out of the teleport? or maybe a re-roll for teleport errors?

I'd like to see them come out after new DE, Necron, Tau, GK, and SoB codexes come out. Just saying...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:how is preferred enemy a crap rule? it is nothing like the D&D version which requires you to declare what your character hates. unless I am mistaken, preferred enemy allows for re-rolls in close combat against your enemy... period. no declaration of "well I hate Orks" has to be made and set in stone for the rest of the life of the army.

grayspark wrote:How is preferred enemy a stupid thing to have?
Most of the Space Marine codexes (Blood Angels, Space Wolf) are getting quite a few things with preferred enemy, and it suits them. It also suits the Dark Angels, so why is it a stupid thing to have?

As it only works in the right circumstances. Like Favoured Enemy in D&D - my Ranger has Preferred Enemy: Aberration and Magical Creatures. You think my DM throws Magical Creatures my way that often? I'll tell you, he does not. Really all FE guarantees me is that I will be facing less of those creatures. I essentially waste a feat each time I favour a new enemy.

I see Preferred Enemy as a very similar entity. How many Fallen armies are there? Honestly, I've seen one. And you're not gonna convince your SM opponent to "pretend" to be The Fallen just so your units can kick his ass a little more. Let's suumise a vanilla SP costs about 15 points without Preferred Enemy: The Fallen. A Dark Angel rank-and-file marine would costs perhaps 16 points with Preferred Enemy: The Fallen. I think its about 10 points per unit, right? So if your DA army is fighting Orks, Tau, Eldar, Space Marines, CSM, Daemons, Inquisition, DE, BT, BA, Tyranids - I think you see where I'm going with this - you're basically spending points on a buff you will almost never use. That is a crap rule, and a stupid thing to have.

You couldn't fix it so DA have Preferred Enemy: Everyone, as that would be completely broken and would essentially just be a massive increase in stats. Preferred Enemy: Chaos is a bit better, but really your army is going to be facing a lot of different forces, so again you're wasting invisible points on a buff you're not receiving. As a USR it's completely pointless. Purchasing the ability as a unit upgrade is cool, as is giving them the rule for free. However the latter option then just "boosts" the basic statline of the unit for no extra cost, and is then unfair.

plasma cannon attack bikes for raven wing
Ravenwing speeders (maybe only the storm) get scout usr and teleport homers as upgrade
would love to see some type of plasma cannon on dw termies for HW option

I know that tyranids have preferred enemy (read it in a battle report) but i am not familiar with the rule or how the tyranids employ the rule but it seemed to work for the player that fielded the tyranids.

Tek wrote:
You couldn't fix it so DA have Preferred Enemy: Everyone, as that would be completely broken and would essentially just be a massive increase in stats. Preferred Enemy: Chaos is a bit better, but really your army is going to be facing a lot of different forces, so again you're wasting invisible points on a buff you're not receiving. As a USR it's completely pointless. Purchasing the ability as a unit upgrade is cool, as is giving them the rule for free. However the latter option then just "boosts" the basic statline of the unit for no extra cost, and is then unfair.

so has preferred enemy changed since the Black Templars codex? my buddy who plays them uses the favored enemy pretty darned well...

My Wish, HHmmm

1) That Cypher is caught trying to "Free" the Emperor and because the Dark Angels failed to stop the attack and are connected to Cypher, they are delcared Traitors.

or

2)They don't get redone for 5th ed because they are going to be the Ultreamaines of 6th ed(And because the BTs covet the DAs spiffy cool robes. )

3)They end up following a call to arms that leads them to fight beside the SW 13th company.

You couldn't fix it so DA have Preferred Enemy: Everyone, as that would be completely broken and would essentially just be a massive increase in stats. Preferred Enemy: Chaos is a bit better, but really your army is going to be facing a lot of different forces, so again you're wasting invisible points on a buff you're not receiving. As a USR it's completely pointless. Purchasing the ability as a unit upgrade is cool, as is giving them the rule for free. However the latter option then just "boosts" the basic statline of the unit for no extra cost, and is then unfair.

I don't know why me suggesting Preferred enemy for a few specific units, or to choose an enemy squad to get preferred enemy against, suddenly becomes the entire army getting preferred enemy. It obviously wouldn't fit the fluff for everybody to get it, I was suggesting that you have a few specific units, Deathwing, and Ravenwing, to suggest 2, that would get it as they were chasing down the Fallen, and that's the reason they're currently in the battle. If you all think that preferred enemy against the entire army is too strong, then the squads should have to choose an enemy unit (Like the Sanguinor choosing an independent character to reroll against) and have preferred enemy against them, due to the fact that the fallen is thought to be hiding in that unit.

I see where the preferred enemy thing could be useful but you may be paying for a special rule that you may never use.

I'd also like to see something like the Damocles Rhino that lets you re-roll the scatter dice/reserve dice.

grayspark wrote:
I was suggesting that you have a few specific units, Deathwing, and Ravenwing, to suggest 2, that would get it as they were chasing down the Fallen, and that's the reason they're currently in the battle. If you all think that preferred enemy against the entire army is too strong, then the squads should have to choose an enemy unit (Like the Sanguinor choosing an independent character to reroll against) and have preferred enemy against them, due to the fact that the fallen is thought to be hiding in that unit.

Dude, I apologise. I was referring to the rule in general. Your idea is a total fix AFAIC. That's very cool. Although if you're playing against a Nid or Ork army your DA would look like idiots expecting a member of the Fallen to be concealed in that squad!
As a paid upgrade, I totally support the idea of Preferred Enemy. I just dislike it as a natural USR.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I would like to see commanders with better abilities... especially Belial. Commander of the 1st company doesn't have Iron Halo? Even wearing terminator armor? C'mon...

+1.

the DA special characters are kind of gimp. i mean, with characters like the Sangiunor and Mephiston, it's like the devs don't even want people to play SM armies other than BA. give DA an angel of their own, call him the Reclaimer, or the Risen (get it?), give him a stupid BS like 9. with an honor guard with a bunch of plasma cannons or something, so he can gun down anything on the field in the same way bloodthirsters and avatars carve up anything in front of them.

put Azmodai back in the codex, and make him the DA version of Mephiston (except a chaplain to their librarian), able to lead a special squad of close combat goons that can 'tank' a chunk of melee armies while the tacs and devs do their business from the back.

i don't know, i could be full of it, i've been out of the game for a long while, but looking over the codices it seems pretty obv that DA need a lot of work.

hemingway wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I would like to see commanders with better abilities... especially Belial. Commander of the 1st company doesn't have Iron Halo? Even wearing terminator armor? C'mon...

+1.

the DA special characters are kind of gimp. i mean, with characters like the Sangiunor and Mephiston, it's like the devs don't even want people to play SM armies other than BA. give DA an angel of their own, call him the Reclaimer, or the Risen (get it?), give him a stupid BS like 9. with an honor guard with a bunch of plasma cannons or something, so he can gun down anything on the field in the same way bloodthirsters and avatars carve up anything in front of them.

put Azmodai back in the codex, and make him the DA version of Mephiston (except a chaplain to their librarian), able to lead a special squad of close combat goons that can 'tank' a chunk of melee armies while the tacs and devs do their business from the back.

i don't know, i could be full of it, i've been out of the game for a long while, but looking over the codices it seems pretty obv that DA need a lot of work.

And I would still take my 130pt Belial over a landraider costed IC any day.

The Only Problem i have with Dark Angels is bar deathwing and ravenwing they are kindof stepping on Gray Knight foot steps (wacth youtube vid on how to play them some guy did very good)
you can find it easy. Possibly Librarians as Elites like chaplains are to BA. its just making them monks in space cause have BA as vampires in space, and Space Wovles you get the point. I agree with most the common sense things like upgrade stats, Wargear to its 5th ed versions, more psychic powers. A character that make plasma weapons Twin-Linked. Add in new units that the Sm book has (stern/van guard vets etc) .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also above poster hes not an IC

ThatMG wrote:The Only Problem i have with Dark Angels is bar deathwing and ravenwing they are kindof stepping on Gray Knight foot steps (wacth youtube vid on how to play them some guy did very good)
you can find it easy. Possibly Librarians as Elites like chaplains are to BA. its just making them monks in space cause have BA as vampires in space, and Space Wovles you get the point. I agree with most the common sense things like upgrade stats, Wargear to its 5th ed versions, more psychic powers. A character that make plasma weapons Twin-Linked. Add in new units that the Sm book has (stern/van guard vets etc) .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also above poster hes not an IC

I mean in general. Wait... I read the BA 'dex... isn't Mephiston an IC?

And I fail to see how we are Gray Knights...

CrazyThang wrote:

ThatMG wrote:The Only Problem i have with Dark Angels is bar deathwing and ravenwing they are kindof stepping on Gray Knight foot steps (wacth youtube vid on how to play them some guy did very good)
you can find it easy. Possibly Librarians as Elites like chaplains are to BA. its just making them monks in space cause have BA as vampires in space, and Space Wovles you get the point. I agree with most the common sense things like upgrade stats, Wargear to its 5th ed versions, more psychic powers. A character that make plasma weapons Twin-Linked. Add in new units that the Sm book has (stern/van guard vets etc) .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also above poster hes not an IC

I mean in general. Wait... I read the BA 'dex... isn't Mephiston an IC?

And I fail to see how we are Gray Knights...

Mephiston is not an IC and Gray Knights becuase your terminators cost more that normal codex ones and all terminators come with storm bolters so i would play DA like Gray Knights e.g. not deathstar. You use lascannons to De-mech the opponents weakest armour value tanks and kill the units that pop out with storm bolter fire. the DA I think it inbetwen Gray Knights and white scars
e.g. storm bolter/Lascannon spam Or Bike/Speeder spam. It all depends whats in the new Gray Knight Book/Daemonhunters (I think or Hope they will make it Gray Knights and then make the Ordo Malleus dex what would have sisters wicth hunters normal Inquistors, assassins etc).

Our terminators are more expensive because they have fearless and deathwing assault...

Which still doesn't mean they should be restricted to units of 5 Terminators or with inferior Storm Shields, etc.

I've got a few ideas that might work to make the army unique.

- Give all DA marines Stubborn. This reflects the fluff and makes them harder to break in hand to hand.
- Bring them up to par and cost with Vanilla Marines in terms of wargear, equipment options (teleport homers, TH+SS etc), and stats.
- Make Deathwing the best terminators in the game. This can be done by creating a precision deep strike (similar to descent of angels), something similar to the old Lysanderwing rule where the termys all show up as one reserve choice, can specify the turn of their arrival, or by granting them an orbital bombardment for each Terminator Squad.
- Keep the Belial and Sammael options for allowing their units to count as troops.
- Sergeant Namaan as a scout squad upgrade that allows for ambush from any table edge or deep strike and assault on turn of arrival.
- Techmarine special character that allows for rerollable plasma weaponry.
- Tactical Supremacy: A special rule that allows them to re-roll deployment setup (dawn of war, pitched battle, spearhead)
- Ravenwing Strike: May pick table edge when outflanking from reserve, all outflanking units must come from the same table edge. Also, a return of the jink save and skilled rider rules would also be cool.
- Cypher back as a Nemesis character that the other army may choose to take for free above a certain point level, but grants the Dark Angels additional special rules (relentless for all infantry?). This would mostly be an option for fun games

Ultimately, what would make the army more deadly and fluffy in my opinion would be if the strategic precision of the Dark Angels was reflected in the reduction of risks associated with deployment, deep striking, and outflanking. Giving the army the potential to really create a coordinated strike that cripples an enemy force.