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insaniak wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: It says you must deploy half rounded up. There is no choice. If you have any amount of drop pods with this rule you must deploy at least half.

You have two different statements there, only one of which is actually backed up by the rules.

Drop Pod Assault doesn't allow you to deploy 'at least half' of your pods. It requires exactly half of them to arrive on turn 1, and the rest to arrive using the normal reserve rules.

By the rules of formation either all of your formation is either on or off the board. So if only one of my models/units comes on the table (that is in this formation) they must all come on. How does that not make any sence?

It's not so much that it doesn't make sense as it's backwards. The rule requiring half of your pods to come on is an exception to the normal rules for deployment. If you're playing an Apocalypse game, those normal rules require your detachment to come on all at once.

Drop Pod Assault is the more specific rule, as it applies to a specific unit type whereas the rule requiring detachments to deploy together is a general rule that applies to everybody. As such, it breaks the general rule for how you deploy your detachments in an Apocalypse game. What you're trying to do is apply the more general deployment rule to over-ride the Drop Pod Assault's specific requirement to bring half of your pods on in turn 1.

Actually I am looking at the rules and saying that since Drop Pod assault makes you bring (any amount of) models on the table you must by formation rules bring the rest on. Additionally, are you not breaking the rules for both the drop pods and Formation rules if you do not follow what I am suggesting? If you, as many of you think, can deploy half of your drop pods on turn one,and keeping the rest of the formation in reserves, you are breaking the Formation rules. Also, if you delay your drop pods to turn 2, you are breaking the drop pod assault rules.


Again for you to understand you must look at each of the rules and see the key parts to it. You play with these general rules in Apoc,
1. Nothing can come in from reserves on the first turn.
2. Either all of your formation is on or off the board. <--------------- Major part here {all or nothing statment}
Theses rules are agumented by the more specific rules of the codex.
Drop Pod Assault: You must bring in half(rounded up) of your drop pods on turn 1.
This breaks the first rule. Yes? I think we can all agree to that. But wait there is more. If any/all of these drop pods are part of (I am guessing) any formation, and by the formation rules, either everything is on or off the board, {there it is again} you must bring the rest of the formation on. See how I did that? I took the more specific rule, used it in the right way, and then used the formation rule, also in the right way. I am not trying to get around any rules. I am not trying to bend them. I am looking at what they exactly say and go from start to finish in clear and obvious steps.

Here I will put it to you this way.

I am going to put all of my formation (including Drop Pods) into my reserves. Have to since Drop Pods are a part of the formation.
Turn 1. Drop Pod Assualt kicks in. Half of my drop pods must enter play on this turn. Oh look the Formation Rules say that either all of my formation is on (some of them being drop pods) or off (cannot be since my drop pods are part of the formation) the board. Since I must bring some of the models on to the board the rest must come on as well. If I am not mistaken it does not say to defer any models, or wait until everything can come on. It is a function of the rules, all on or all off, no in between, no "if this rule is modified by some wargear or whatever statement." It simply is that they are all either on, or off the table.

Step 1: drop pod assault triggers. Choose half of my drop pods to come on to the table.
Step 2: check for formations rules. Either all of your formation is on or off the table.
Step 3: Make sure I follow both. IE. Drop pod comes on, rest of formation comes on because the rules say all are on or off.
Step 4: Deploy rest of formation. Followed the rules.

I see that you are saying that I am breaking the rules. Again, I am saying that by the way the rules work I am not.

Like umbrellas. Apoc is the top umbrella that's the 'standard' deployment you're using, the Drop Pod Assault rules affects the rules for Apoc deployment as it's under the Apoc umbrella.
Concentric circles is another image one could use.




You could think of it another way "no more than 25% (rounded down) of one's units may be held in reserve" (a made up rule) wouldn't effect an entire DPA situation either for example - It may mean that you would need to send down empty pods however as the squads would be forced out.
Ie 12 DP with 10 squads inside that's 22 units meaning a total 5 may be held in reserve half now - half later, The 6 DP come in turn one, no problems, but the 6 held in reserve would have to be empty - you've filled your quota for reserves, holding a squad back would make 7 units in reserve >_<. But the specifity of the DP rules meant that the 6 would have been 'ignored'

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Actually I am looking at the rules and saying that since Drop Pod assault makes you bring (any amount of) models on the table you must by formation rules bring the rest on.

Yeah, I got that. Which was why I pointed out that it was backwards.

Additionally, are you not breaking the rules for both the drop pods and Formation rules if you do not follow what I am suggesting?

No. You're only breaking the formation rule, which you can do because DPA is more specific.

As opposed to breaking the Drop Pod Assault rule and the Strategic Reserves rule if you do follow what you are suggesting.

I think that you and your opponent are just going to have to come to an agreement. Apocalypse is the ultimate expression of "just for fun" 40k and a lot of things cause you to tweak some rules. Phase Out comes to mind...

I'd probably just ignore the Drop Pod Assault rules for this formation. Or take Careful Planning and have done with it.

Kp - please answer the case given earlier about breaking the drop pod assault rules (which your method most certainly can do)

1) you have 3 drop pods, ALL in the formation, and no other drop pods.
2) DPA requires that you MUST bring in half (so 2) on turn 1
3) YOur proposed solution, which you claim breaks no rules, is to bring *all* drop pods onto the table in turn 1.

IF 2 is true You have then broken DPA rules. You have NOT adhered to the rules, as you have NO PERMISSION to bring *all* of the pods onto the table.

Hence why your method is still "wrong", as it still breaks a rule.

wasn't this formation specifically built for drop pods? if so, and it states that you have to keep it in reserve, then it stays right? (not familiar with this form)

And KP...i shun you because you are a space marine player, and something goes wrong rule wise for you, you gotta fight it and argue it. thats fine and dandy to a point, but as a SM player, you have MANY rules that us 3rd and 2nd ed players DONT have.

so some small change is gonna make you think a little harder about the game. this is a rule that you could do without as you could do it on turn 2 and STILL be fine.

whereas a necron player...we have NO power vs your vehicles, all we can do is glance it to death. our only dedicated tank unit is a single lascannon shot for 60 points...its kinda nice to have some delays in our opponets to give us just a little hope to beat you!

im not directly shuning you, but every space marine and IG player just really really....BLEEP!........blah blah blah....im keeping as a nice guy

anywho. go play another army. like tau, necrons, or DE.

You are a good arguer, and i say AMEN BROTHA! but you dont need to argue for Space marines or IG. they are already the strongest played armies right now.

Hell, argue for me! i wanna deep strike and be able to use my Gauss flux arc!..........but no.

Anywho, it isnt YOU that i am shuning. just leave space marines alone. they dont need help right now.

Kyric - there are no 2nd ed players out there, oldest are the 4 3rd ed codexes left, with DE being the oldest by far if memory serves (they were a 3rd ed launch army, so 1998 for the main dex, 2000 for the reprint?)

Nope. DE dex says on it *2nd edition* In a little emblem on the left corner of the (EDITCover(DONE). it might have been the last release for 2nd ed, but that still makes it 2nd ed. ^^

Umm no, that means its the second edition of the DE codex. It was released in 3rd.

edit: It has the 2nd edition stamp on it because it was nearly identical to the first DE codex, including the cover. The only way to distinguish between them when looking at the covers is the stamp.

Kyric - as above. 1) DE didnt exist as a codex in 2nd (hence release army, look at 40k wiki!) and 2) the entire system changed heavily between 2nd and 3rd - an army that tried to use its 2nd edition version in 5th would struggle, somehwat...

alright alright! O.o you got me. sheesh. no1 ever explained that. i dont have any DE players here where i live. i just assumed and thought maybe you forgot... SHEESH O.o


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anywho. i was just trying to make a point...play by 3rd ed rules vs your 5th ed crap >.<

Kyric wrote:And KP...i shun you because you are a space marine player, and something goes wrong rule wise for you, you gotta fight it and argue it. thats fine and dandy to a point, but as a SM player, you have MANY rules that us 3rd and 2nd ed players DONT have.

so some small change is gonna make you think a little harder about the game. this is a rule that you could do without as you could do it on turn 2 and STILL be fine.

whereas a necron player...we have NO power vs your vehicles, all we can do is glance it to death. our only dedicated tank unit is a single lascannon shot for 60 points...its kinda nice to have some delays in our opponets to give us just a little hope to beat you!

im not directly shuning you, but every space marine and IG player just really really....BLEEP!........blah blah blah....im keeping as a nice guy

anywho. go play another army. like tau, necrons, or DE.

You are a good arguer, and i say AMEN BROTHA! but you dont need to argue for Space marines or IG. they are already the strongest played armies right now.

Hell, argue for me! i wanna deep strike and be able to use my Gauss flux arc!..........but no.

Anywho, it isnt YOU that i am shuning. just leave space marines alone. they dont need help right now.

What does any of that have to do with the actual topic?

Your personal opinions of the power of various armies are completely irrelevant to a discussion of how the rules work. Please stick to the topic.

it has to do with the fact that he lost the argument to nos and you. but he keeps trying. and as i said, if you wanna argue for something that actually NEEDS arguing for, argue for the necrons.

Kyric wrote:it has to do with the fact that he lost the argument to nos and you. but he keeps trying.

That doesn't make him some sort of power gamer... just someone who thinks his argument is right. There are no 'winners' or 'losers' in this forum. Just people presenting a point of view.

and as i said, if you wanna argue for something that actually NEEDS arguing for, argue for the necrons.

Which would be a little odd in a discussion of a Space Marine special rule...

V_V you totally miss the point...... *Rolls Eyes*


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btw, not calling anyone a winner or loser. im just saying that i think there is more proof that they should be in on turn 2 or later. the guy is not a loser. hes good arguer, and he should argue for necrons (AS A JOKE...Hang with me here!) because necrons need it most. eh eh? get what i mean? *hint hint Nudge Nudge*?


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Anywho, Have a good weekend ALL! ^_^

a little OT...but i looked at your webpage insaniak, and those conversions are pretty kick ass....Anywho, Later! and good luck arguing this pig

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kp - please answer the case given earlier about breaking the drop pod assault rules (which your method most certainly can do)

1) you have 3 drop pods, ALL in the formation, and no other drop pods.
2) DPA requires that you MUST bring in half (so 2) on turn 1
3) YOur proposed solution, which you claim breaks no rules, is to bring *all* drop pods onto the table in turn 1.

IF 2 is true You have then broken DPA rules. You have NOT adhered to the rules, as you have NO PERMISSION to bring *all* of the pods onto the table.

Hence why your method is still "wrong", as it still breaks a rule.

Okay, sorry went on a gaming tangent went 2 for 2, but lets get back to the topic.

I think we need to think of these rules as guide lines for playing the game. The first part I think we can all agree on that DPA ignores nothing can come in on first turn rule. Great thats out of the way. Now lets look at how DPA works with the Formation rules.
The DPA makes you drop half of your drop pods. By the wording of the Formation rules, again exactly what they say, either ALL of your formation is on or off the table. Or in different terms. All your models in the formation are on the table, or all your models in the formation are off the table. If you have any amount of models on the table, then by the Formation rules you must have ALL of them on the table. Same goes for off. Since we have already established that DPA makes you bring in half of your drop pods in on turn one. By following the Formation Rules you have to bring every model in the formation on the table.;

Now I get that you are saying that in using this method it is breaking mulitple rules. But then again I am breaking the same amount of rules as would you all by not following it the same way. (As I understand what you are suggesting)

You are saying that either, A. you wait till turn two to bring on the Drop Pods with DPA, which breaks rules for DPA. Or B. That DPA works on one, but you ignore the formation rules about your formation either being on or off the board. Both of these breaks rules. My arguement breaks rule 1, no models my enter on turn 1. If you follow what I am saying, DPA says you must bring on half of your Drop Pods, but does not say no more the half, or restricts more from coming on for other rules, in fact it says that you bring the rest in using normal rules, IE bring on the rest when you would roll for them as normal. Since the formation says that they must either all be on or all be off, you do not roll for them as normal, because they must all be on or all be off. I look at it this way. Rule 1 is ignored because DPA ignores it. DPA rule triggers Formation rule requirement of either all on or all off. I am not breaking the DPA rule as you suggest I am actually following it, because I have models in the formation (half my drop pods)on the table, all models in said formation must either all be on or off the table. Since DPA only mentions that you must bring in half it is not being specific enough for you to say that either all models in a formation are all on or off, is ignored. I think the sticking point to your arguement against what I am suggesting is that, you think that half is specific enough.

Just for consumption and maybe a little more obviousness lets look at exactly what DPA says.

C:SM page 69. "DPA: Drop pods always enter using the deepstrike rules form the mission special rules section of the WarHammer 40k rulebook. At the begining of your first turn, you must choose half of your drop pods(rounding up) to make a 'drop pod assault'. Units making a drop pod assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of remaining drop pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that arrives via drop pod may not assault in the turn it arrives."

Okay since that is out there can you point out to me where I am breaking the DPA rules. I see nothing about the rest not being able to come on because another rule makes them come on. They would be rolled for as normal, but since the formation rules say that either all are on or all are off, you must have them be on.

Might I ask what the strategic reseves rule is? Is it the you cannot bring on anything on turn one? Just want to make sure I know what we are talking about here.

You're making it all far more complicated than it needs to be.

It's this simple: where a given unit's special rule contradicts a general rule of the game, the unit's special rule wins. Otherwise, there would be no point having the special rule.

Apocalypse says that formations must be deployed together, and that no units can arrive on turn 1. These are both general rules, as they apply to all units in the game.

Drop Pods have the Drop Pod Assault rule, that says that half of them are deployed in turn 1, and the rest follow the reserve rules.

So, Drop Pod Assault is in conflict with the Apocalypse rules. As DPA is a special rule that applies to a specific unit, it over-rides the general Apocalypse rules.



That's really all there is to it.

KP - you state that DPA doesnt state you "cant" bring in more than half, it states you MUST bring in half - so if you bring in more have you brought in half, as you MUST do? No, you have brought in MORE than half.

So if you bring everything in turn 1 you have broken DPA.

insaniak wrote:You're making it all far more complicated than it needs to be.

It's this simple: where a given unit's special rule contradicts a general rule of the game, the unit's special rule wins. Otherwise, there would be no point having the special rule.

Apocalypse says that formations must be deployed together, and that no units can arrive on turn 1. These are both general rules, as they apply to all units in the game.

Drop Pods have the Drop Pod Assault rule, that says that half of them are deployed in turn 1, and the rest follow the reserve rules.

So, Drop Pod Assault is in conflict with the Apocalypse rules. As DPA is a special rule that applies to a specific unit, it over-rides the general Apocalypse rules.



That's really all there is to it.

Alright, lets do this one last time. You guys seem to think that DPA requires only half come in. As in half and no more. If you look at the last post that I have put up. The only requirement for DPA is that you choose half (rounded up) to come in on the first turn. DPA says that the rest would be rolled for as normal. That is where the rule ends. It does not go on to further state nothing else can come on, or that the rest has to wait to be rolled for. It states that the rest would be rolled for as normal, but the problem is that the formation rules explictly say that you either have all your models on or all your models off the table. Which negates them waiting. You must bring in the rest otherwise you are breaking the formation rules. Again the only rule that I am breaking is the first turn no reserve rule. Which is specifically negated by DPA. It is a chain of events.

Once I drop half my pods on turn 1, I have completed the requirements of DPA: So saying that if I bring in more I would break this rule is false. If you read DPA again there is no requirement for them to follow the reserve rule, because it says you would roll for them as normal. Normal, for this instance, is that the formation rules come in to play, and the rest of the formation must come on.

I also think you guys are putting restrictions (that are in my opinion not there) on DPA. Saying that if I would have to bring in the rest after DPA have been fullfilled that I have broken the DPA rules.

Again, please show me where DPA says that I cannot do this. I implore you to do so, as I can show you where there is no restriction, and that the Formation rules override the rest of the formation waiting till later.

Excetp you are still breaking DPA, as you have no permission to bring the other drop pods on.

You have also brought on more than half, while dreop pods states you MUST bring on *half*. If you have brought on more than that, havbe you brought on half? No? then guess what...

In other words: you lack permission to do what you do, therefore you are breaking rules.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Alright, lets do this one last time. You guys seem to think that DPA requires only half come in. As in half and no more.

That's correct. The rule allows you to bring on half. It does not allow you to bring on more than half, or less than half.

If a rule allows you to have two oranges, you can't have three. That would be more than is allowed.

It does not go on to further state nothing else can come on,

Nor, which is more important, does it say that anything else can come on.

It states that the rest would be rolled for as normal, but the problem is that the formation rules explictly say that you either have all your models on or all your models off the table.

So, once again, you have a general rule (Formations must be deployed together) in conflict with a specific rule (Drop Pods deploy half of their number in turn 1) ... so the specific rule wins.

The Formation rule can not break Drop Pod Assault. That's simply not how the rules work. Specific rules take precedence, unless (as in cases like WBB being negated by Sweeping Advance) the general rule addresses that specific situation. That principle is what allows Relentless models to move and fire heavy weapons. It's what allows Drop Pods to reduce their scatter instead of mishapping. It's what allows Orks to use their unit strength instead of their Ld value. And on ad infinitum.

You can not choose to arbitrarily over-rule the specific rule with the general. That way lies madness. The game can only function if you observe the normal hierarchy. If you try to apply it backwards, almost every single special rule in the game suddenly becomes invalid.

You must bring in the rest otherwise you are breaking the formation rules.

But you can not bring them on, because DPA says you bring on half, and DPA is more specific.

Again the only rule that I am breaking is the first turn no reserve rule. Which is specifically negated by DPA.

...for half of your Drop Pods. Not for the entire formation.

If you bring on more than half, you are not bringing on half. DPA says to bring on half. So bringing on more than half is breaking DPA. Three oranges are more than two.

Again, please show me where DPA says that I cannot do this.

The rules rarely deal with what you can not do. The rulebook would be a mile thick if it had to list all of the things you can't do.

Instead, it tells you what you can do.

So what you need is a rule saying that you can ignore DPA's requirement to bring on half of your pods.

It does not go on to further state nothing else can come on,

Nor, which is more important, does it say that anything else can come on.

The formation rule does however govern this.

It states that the rest would be rolled for as normal, but the problem is that the formation rules explictly say that you either have all your models on or all your models off the table.

So, once again, you have a general rule (Formations must be deployed together) in conflict with a specific rule (Drop Pods deploy half of their number in turn 1) ... so the specific rule wins.

The Formation rule can not break Drop Pod Assault. That's simply not how the rules work. Specific rules take precedence, unless (as in cases like WBB being negated by Sweeping Advance) the general rule addresses that specific situation. That principle is what allows Relentless models to move and fire heavy weapons. It's what allows Drop Pods to reduce their scatter instead of mishapping. It's what allows Orks to use their unit strength instead of their Ld value. And on ad infinitum.

You can not choose to arbitrarily over-rule the specific rule with the general. That way lies madness. The game can only function if you observe the normal hierarchy. If you try to apply it backwards, almost every single special rule in the game suddenly becomes invalid.

You must bring in the rest otherwise you are breaking the formation rules.

But you can not bring them on, because DPA says you bring on half, and DPA is more specific.

Again the only rule that I am breaking is the first turn no reserve rule. Which is specifically negated by DPA.

...for half of your Drop Pods. Not for the entire formation.

If you bring on more than half, you are not bringing on half. DPA says to bring on half. So bringing on more than half is breaking DPA. Three oranges are more than two.

Again, please show me where DPA says that I cannot do this.

The rules rarely deal with what you can not do. The rulebook would be a mile thick if it had to list all of the things you can't do.

Instead, it tells you what you can do.

So what you need is a rule saying that you can ignore DPA's requirement to bring on half of your pods.

Except your way doesnt work.

Formation is less specific than DPA, as DPA applies ONLY to tghe Drop pods in your formation (which is not all the models in your formation...) so it forces you to bring them in turn 1 as per DPA, it deos not allow you to break first turn reserves which you are trying to do.

You are breeaking no first turn reserves without permission to do so, or you break DPA (by bringing more than half the drop pods on) with your method - so you break at least two rules.

Brining in JUST the Drop Pods only breaks at most one rule (formation) and even that is arguable - and the BEST THING about it is that it is ALSO the method that provides least benefit to the SM player. In other words when forced to break some rules (which you do not acknowledge you are doing, but you ARE doing so) do so to give the least advantage.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:You are saying that the formation rule is less specific about the models, when in fact it is just as specific as DPA, if not more so.

I suspect you're missing the point about specificity.


When we talk about a rule being more specific, this is in relation to the model being affected.

So when we are attempting to determine how the rules affect a Drop Pod, a special rule that specifically targets the Drop Pod is more specific than a rule that applies to all formations... because it applies to a specific model, instead of all models.

DPA is specific about drop pods, and drop pods only.

Exactly.

Which is why it over-rides the formation rule where Drop Pods are concerned. And is why it doesn't allow you to break the Strategic Reserves rule for the rest of the formation.

But since it says that they would be rolled for as normal there is disagreement. The formation rule is the normal in this instance since they are all directly part of the formation.

The normal rule for reserves in an Apocalypse game is the Strategic Reserves rule. The formation rule in question is simply a rule governing deployment... it has nothing to do with how reserves work.

So rolling for the rest of the Drop Pods 'as normal', in a game of Apocalypse, means following the Strategic Reserves rule. Which means that you need a specific rule in order to over-ride the prohibition on deploying turn 1, and you need to start bringing everything else on in turn 2.

insaniak wrote:

I suspect you're missing the point about specificity.


When we talk about a rule being more specific, this is in relation to the model being affected.

So when we are attempting to determine how the rules affect a Drop Pod, a special rule that specifically targets the Drop Pod is more specific than a rule that applies to all formations... because it applies to a specific model, instead of all models.

DPA is specific about drop pods, and drop pods only.

Exactly.

Which is why it over-rides the formation rule where Drop Pods are concerned. And is why it doesn't allow you to break the Strategic Reserves rule for the rest of the formation.

But since it says that they would be rolled for as normal there is disagreement. The formation rule is the normal in this instance since they are all directly part of the formation.

The normal rule for reserves in an Apocalypse game is the Strategic Reserves rule. The formation rule in question is simply a rule governing deployment... it has nothing to do with how reserves work.

So rolling for the rest of the Drop Pods 'as normal', in a game of Apocalypse, means following the Strategic Reserves rule. Which means that you need a specific rule in order to over-ride the prohibition on deploying turn 1, and you need to start bringing everything else on in turn 2.

A couple of things first. DPA allows what ever formation you are in to break the no first turn reserves. They are models in the formation, you cannot have it both ways. Additionally, how am I breaking the DPA rule, when and I have explained this multiple times, you would roll for them as normal. I get that you are saying that you think that DPA has this extra, line, qualification, or something that prohibits anything else (drop pods) from coming on the table. There is no language that you can back this up with. I have shown you that there is language that allows for other models to come on.

Secondly, since I am putting myself out there (NOS) please try to do the same and suggest something that might be an anwser to the question as well. I have explained in the past posts how either of your ways would not work as well.

So we continue......
Insaniak, since the general reserves rule says that no units can enter play on the first player turn, and that rule has been overridden by DPA, the formation rule is included in part of breaking that rule. I think you guys are missing my point that DPA's only requirements, and rules restriction is that you must bring half your drop pods in on turn one, nothing else, no further restrictions. So the formation puts a restriction on anything in the formation. Think of it this way. All the models in your formation gain the following text, For remainder of game all models in formation must be deployed together. (paraphrase I think we all know what that sentence means) They have to follow it. There is nothing in DPA that would Void it. Yes I get that DPA is specific to models, but that does not override a rule that says you must deploy everything together, or nothing at all. I also have offered up the fact that I am breaking rules, but in a legal way. You Nos, continually spout this and I am quite frankly tired of it, since you are not putting anything helpful forward.

So..... since we are this far in and this is just to lighten the conversation, no where in DPA does it say that you are allowed to deploy models inside said drop pods on the first turn, only that the drop pods must enter play on the first turn, thus forcing what ever inside out into your reserves and to be rolled for seperately by the rules of Strategic Reserves.(Totally a Joke, but think about it)

Now back onto the elbow grease and hardcore discussion. The formation rule overrides, strategic reserves because it is more specific then strategic reserves. Saying all of your model in a formation must either be on or off the table. DPA being subject to the formation rule, and not overriding it at all, (no text to exclude it) must follow this rule. The hitch is that since Drop Pods are a part of the formation and have a rule that overrides the no reserves rule on first player turn, you are forced by the formation rule to deploy everything.

Alright till tonight where I expect ( and this is just a jest I cannot control anyone and how they post) some suggestions along side, (and totally joking) the jumping up and down and screaming look he's breaking the rules and I have nothing further to put forward.

On a side note if we cannot laugh at ourselves what are we doing then, causing our bodies to break down and die earlier then they really should!
To the game store and hopefully a couple more wins before I move!

Except you only have permission to bring the Drop Pods in, no other models.

Ypou also break the drop pod rule if you bring other drop pods onto the table, more than half, as DPA *requires* that half arrive - if MORE than half arrive you HAV E BROKEN the DPA rule.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:A couple of things first. DPA allows what ever formation you are in to break the no first turn reserves. They are models in the formation, you cannot have it both ways. Additionally, how am I breaking the DPA rule, when and I have explained this multiple times, you would roll for them as normal.

We've been over this ground multiple times now. I see no purposes in continuing to repeat the same thing over and over again, and I think I've explained it about as many different ways as I can come up with.

I get that you are saying that you think that DPA has this extra, line, qualification, or something that prohibits anything else (drop pods) from coming on the table.

No, I don't, and the fact that you are still claiming that I do suggests that you aren't actually reading what I've been posting.

Secondly, since I am putting myself out there please try to do the same and suggest something that might be an anwser to the question as well.

I did. In my first post in this thread, and several times over the course of this discussion as a part of the process of explaining to you how the rules interact. So, again, since you don't seem to be actually reading the opposing arguments to your interpretation, I think I'm done here.

If the drop pods have to come in, and they're part of a formation that can't be broken it would seem to me that the entire formation comes In.

Apocalypse is supposed to be crazy. This is another example.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except you only have permission to bring the Drop Pods in, no other models.

Ypou also break the drop pod rule if you bring other drop pods onto the table, more than half, as DPA *requires* that half arrive - if MORE than half arrive you HAV E BROKEN the DPA rule.

Execpt that the formation rule does give me permission because (and I cannot say this to many more times before I get tired of it!) The DPA rule says and I quote, "the remaining models are rolled for as normal". Since (and try and focus on this part NOS because it is the important part) that the formation is the normal. Yet again, and all by itself so you can see it and not have it hidden in a block of text,


All your models in a formation MUST either be ON or OFF the table. Drop pods are part of the formation. The formation must be together.

Once you can grasp that particular thought, you will understand what I am saying. Stop saying that I am breaking the DPA rules, because I have fulfilled them, Half my drop pods must enter play on my first turn. That is the only requirement, there is no other. The remainder of the drop pods are rolled for as normal, which is the formation rule in this instance, SINCE THEY MUST BE ON OR OFF the table.


Look at it this way you have a bunch of models tied together by a string (string is formation rule) sitting on a counter top. Some of the models are pushed off the counter top prematurely (DPA RULE). That string which ties all the models together pulls the rest down. (ignoring weight of coarse). That is how these rules interact.

I will point out to you Nos that since drop pods are part of my formation, they break the first turn no reserves rule, which then, because they are part of the formation pull in the rest.

Additionally I would like to appaulogize to insaniak, I thought I directed a comment at Nos but I did not and am going to fix it.

I'm certainly not introducing anything new to this discussion, but I'd like to support Insaniak's and others' stance that a specific rule introduced in a codex always trumps a general rule introduced in the rulebook.

The drop pod assault rule overrides the apocalypse stratigic reserve rules just as it does the BGB's reserve rules.