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Using Deathknell formation makes you put the whole formation in reserve

Normally you should come in 2nd turn without assets

But drop pod forces to come in on 1st turn


So would the entire formation come on 1stturn since drop pod is forced (due to drop pod assault)

Apocalypse has another reserves system than regular 40k. Basically half of the units you have in 'strategic reserves' comes in on turn 1 and the rest on turn 2. Formations is usually considered a single unit in this regard.

So if the Deathknell formation is all you have in reserves, then yes, it comes on automatically on turn 1.

I thought that was only possible is you took the Careful Planning tactical asset.

Without that asset, I believe it's half come in on turn 2 and the rest on turn 3 (assuming all units are in strategic reserve).

But Drop Pod assault states that it must come in on turn one.... since the drop pod is part of the formation... would the whole formation then also be forced to come in on turn 1?

Warboss - you are incorrect.
In Apocalypse reserves come in starting turn 2 - half of the units. Final half turn 3.

Basically nothing works here - so, as it is Apocalypse, agree between you what you do. An acceptable solution seems to be to come in turn 2 to avoiud the drop pods giving a free strategic asset in essence....

Strategic Reserves replaces the normal 40K Reserves rules.

I see no reason for that to not allow Drop Pod Assault to function as normal. Strategic Reserves is the Reserve set-up used for the game as a whole. Drop Pod Assault is a deployment rule that applies to a specific unit, that allows it to come on in turn 1 instead of when it would normally arrive.

There is no rules conflict here.

Except formations must be deployed together, so if there are models in the formation that are not in droppods then you do have a conflict - the formation MUST arrive together, and part of it is trying to turn up turn 1 and part turn 2.

thanks nos and insanisak....


now you are understanding the dilemma we had over the weekend. We're still not sure how to play it.

This seems to be one of the worst of the formations because it has mixed drop pods with terminator units.

Most other formations are all terminators or all drop pods, so they don't have this problem.

As I said - best is to put it in to normal reserve, ignore the Drop Pods rules.

But if you ignore Drop Pod rules, and only had the formation in the reserves they wounldn't come on the table until turn 3 right? (and that's deep striking, which means they aren't going to be able to move and assault until turn 4)....

Kinda makes the whole formation useless.

So I'm reading two interpretations.

Example A:
1) No unit may enter play from strategic reserves on the first turn (page 23 Apocalypse)
2) Up to half of a players Drop Pods may arrive on the first turn (Page 69 SM: Codex)
3) A formation must deploy in the same turn (page 100 Apocalypse)

So #2 being specific overrides #1, and #3 applys: End result the formation drops turn 1

or

Example B:
1) No unit may enter play from strategic reserves on the first turn (page 23 Apocalypse)
2) Up to half of a players Drop Pods may arrive on the first turn (Page 69 SM: Codex)
3) A formation must deploy in the same turn (page 100 Apocalypse)

#1 is the one rule in the Apocalypse codex that can't be broken so it plays. #2 is ignored and #3 applys on turn 3 when the entire formation can deploy: End result entire formation comes down turn 3.

Is that right?

You can half your reserves turn up Turn 2, so you can have it appear then.

Number 3 is not being specifically overridden by 2) anyway, so your scenario A is invalid.

You can half your reserves turn up Turn 2, so you can have it appear then.

Ok so worse case scenerio Turn 2. That's a little better. Thank you Nos that clears up something I wasn't quite sure of.

Number 3 is not being specifically overridden by 2) anyway, so your scenario A is invalid.

I think you meant #1 wasn't overridden by #2 so let me explain my logic and then you can help me understand better.

1) No unit may enter play from strategic reserves on the first turn (page 23 Apocalypse)

This is the general rule for Strategic reserves on what to do with reserves on turn one. Pretty simple.

2) Up to half of a players Drop Pods may arrive on the first turn (Page 69 SM: Codex)

This is the codex rule, that allows for at least one drop pod to come in turn one, which would override the general rule for Strategic Reserves right?

3) A formation must deploy in the same turn (page 100 Apocalypse)

You can' t just put one unit from a formation on the board. If one goes they all go.


So which part is incorrect?

Because 2) does not override 3) - you are only given permission to bring the drop pods in on turn 1 (and even then potentially only half of them, depending on how many 'pods you have), you are not given permission to bring the other components in.

So you cannot breask 3) as you are only given permission to bring part of the unit in, not the entire part.

As nothing results in "break no rule", the most sensivble compromise seems to be to ignore droppod assault.

Actually, the drop pod assault says you must select half(rounded up) that arrive on your first turn. You cannot ignore a must. You have no choice end of arguement.

Also, when it comes to rules, start with the BRB then move to the codex. Or in other words codex overrides rule book.

So if I am reading this right for Apoc (don't play it) Deathknell drop pod? says they have to enter play all at the same time, Drop Pod Assault says you must choose half of your drop pods to enter play on the first turn. The rule book says nothing can enter play from reserves. Reverse order of coarse.

1. Rule book says nothing can enter play from reserves.
2. Drop Pod assault overrides rule from rule book.
3. Deathknell says the entire unit must enter play together.

Since the second part of the equation happens before Deathknell happens would it not be that Deathknell must deploy, because you HAVE to deploy at least half.

I would go with the Drop Pod assault over-riding the requirement to deploy the detachment all together, personally.


The rule requiring nothing to enter play on the first turn is a general rule of Apocalypse.
The rule requiring detachments to deploy all at once is likewise a general rule of Apocalypse.
The rule allowing you to deploy half of your Drop Pods in the first turn is a special rule for certain armies, rather than a general rule of the game.

The more specific rule wins.

Kapitalist pig - except you are a) ignoring that y9ou MUST have all models arrive together and b) you are wrong in that codex > BRB, it is specific > general.

Insaniak - so you would play that only the drop pods arrive? Or all of the formation? Would you also follow the rule trhat only half (rounded up) of the drop pods turn up?

in that case what about daemons? they must start in reserve, but half the units must come down turn one?

personally amongst friends it was easy to sort out

Actually you are assuming that I am forgetting about, all the models must deploy together.

If you actually read the last part of my last post it should become clear what I was saying, but just in case here we go.


Since the drop pod over rules nothing can come in from reserve on first turn in an Apoc game, AND since they must all deploy together, then since at least half MUST enter play the rest by following the rules of Deathknell MUST as well.

I just did not write that out for you to read, I thought it might be obvious. So I took the liberty to not put it down.

As far as I know, any codex that specificly states something different to the BRB that you take the codex over the BRB. I just think you are being way to picky on how you look at things and like to point out where people could/might/are wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - so you would play that only the drop pods arrive? Or all of the formation? Would you also follow the rule trhat only half (rounded up) of the drop pods turn up?

I would play it that half of the drop pods arrive, as per the Drop Pods Assault rule. The others would arrive as per the normal Reserve rules (also as stated in DPA) for the game being played... so in this case would follow the Strategic Reserves rule.

Ok so sounds like we are making headway, so let me understand... it's all in the wording?

1) "No units may be committed [on the first turn]" (page 23 & 199 Apocalypse)
2) "At the beginning of your first turn, you MUST choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a 'Drop Pod Assault'." (Page 69 SM: Codex)
3) "all the models in a battle formation (apart from casualties) MUST be either on the table or off it" (page 100 Apocalypse)

I just wanted to get the phrasing accurate instead of my paraphrasing.

I agree with Kapitalist-Pig. Sounds like that the Drops Pod Assualt rule opens the door by deep striking in the first turn, and the Battle Formation MUST follow the Drop Pod.

Except you have not been given permission foer the FORMATION to break the "cannot enter turn 1" rule, only the *drop pods* can do that.

So you are still breaking the reserves rule by bringing the entire formation in.

I think what it comes down to is that you have to follow normal drop pod assault rules as they are the most specific. They grant an exception to reserve rules in normal 40k, and should therefore in apoc as well. After following drop pod assault rules you then differ to the strategic reserve rules. Only if your army contains enough drop pods do you have to adhere to the part about the formation coming in as a whole.

If you have insufficient pods for the formation to all come in on turn 1 under drop pod assault rules, then the rest would come in together from strategic reserves.

What part of MUST do you not get?

Since the drop pod assault rule says you MUST take half of the drop pods and put them into play on the first turn, you then MUST bring the full formation in because the formation says that the formation is either all on or all off (excluding casualties).

There is now way that you can argue against that. Not any logical way at least.

I will say it again. Drop Pod Assault says you MUST bring in half the drop pods in your army (rounded up) into play on the first turn. Deathknell says that the entire formation MUST either be on or off the table (excluding casualties). If you MUST bring in the drop pod/s you MUST bring in the rest.

Or lets rework the way we are looking at the series of events to have a clearer view of this whole thing.

1. No units in reserve can enter play on the first turn (Apoc Rule Book)
2. Deathknell Formation: All models in a battle formation (apart from casualties) MUST either be on the table or off of it (Apoc Rule Book)
3. Drop Pod Assault: ... At the begining of your first turn,you must choose half of your drop pods (Rounding up) to make a 'drop pod assault'. Units making a drop pod assault arrive on the player's first turn....

So now that we have that all worked out, lets look at it this way.

If my formation says that all my units in this formation MUST be on the table or off of it, then by Drop Pod Assault rule they all MUST enter play on the first turn. You have no choice, permission is not needed since you have NO CHOICE, YOU MUST, do this thing by the rules of drop pod assault and the formation.

Except that the rule does not provide a specific override to the strategic reserves and formations rule, so you are still wrong on this.

I am not arguing against the "must", you entirely miss it.

To turn it around on you; the rules say you MUST bring in half the droppods, rounding up. IF the only droppods yo uhave in your army are in your formation, your "solution" to bring in the entire formation breaks the drop pod assault rules, as you are now bringing in ALL the drop pods.

Sorry, your logic is flawed as is your understanding of the rules interactions. Hence, as this is apocalypse and really NOT meant to be pick up and play, agreement between people seems best - and the way to break the fewest rules (strategic reserves and formations AND the drop pod assault rules can all be broken with your method) is to delay till turn 2.

At this point there is no point arguinig further, as there is no RAW answer to this.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:If my formation says that all my units in this formation MUST be on the table or off of it, then by Drop Pod Assault rule they all MUST enter play on the first turn. You have no choice, permission is not needed since you have NO CHOICE, YOU MUST, do this thing by the rules of drop pod assault and the formation.

Except you are skipping the part of the Drop pod assault that says HALF of your total drop pods. Since drop pod assault is more specific, you have to follow that rule if it conflicts with the formation rules.

In the event that your army has enough drop pods to select all of the formation as the half, then yes you could only take all or none of the formation. However, if you do not have enough pods in your army, the formation and drop pod assault rules will come into conflict. In that case, you defer to the more specific rule which is drop pod assault, and you follow that rule.

Therefore, drop pod assault overrides the formations rule when you do not have sufficient drop pods in your list to allow you to bring them all in at once while following the drop pod assault rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that the rule does not provide a specific override to the strategic reserves and formations rule, so you are still wrong on this.

I am not arguing against the "must", you entirely miss it.

To turn it around on you; the rules say you MUST bring in half the droppods, rounding up. IF the only droppods yo uhave in your army are in your formation, your "solution" to bring in the entire formation breaks the drop pod assault rules, as you are now bringing in ALL the drop pods.

Sorry, your logic is flawed as is your understanding of the rules interactions. Hence, as this is apocalypse and really NOT meant to be pick up and play, agreement between people seems best - and the way to break the fewest rules (strategic reserves and formations AND the drop pod assault rules can all be broken with your method) is to delay till turn 2.

At this point there is no point arguinig further, as there is no RAW answer to this.

Like I said before..... this is only a problem with the Deathknell formation..... a formation that contains more than one drop pod (such as the Iron Cyclone Formation, which has all units in drop pods) actually states that only half of the drop pods, rounded up, in the formation come in on turn 1... the rest on turn 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that the rule does not provide a specific override to the strategic reserves and formations rule, so you are still wrong on this.

I am not arguing against the "must", you entirely miss it.

To turn it around on you; the rules say you MUST bring in half the droppods, rounding up. IF the only droppods yo uhave in your army are in your formation, your "solution" to bring in the entire formation breaks the drop pod assault rules, as you are now bringing in ALL the drop pods.

Sorry, your logic is flawed as is your understanding of the rules interactions. Hence, as this is apocalypse and really NOT meant to be pick up and play, agreement between people seems best - and the way to break the fewest rules (strategic reserves and formations AND the drop pod assault rules can all be broken with your method) is to delay till turn 2.

At this point there is no point arguinig further, as there is no RAW answer to this.

Actually I am not break that many rules, just the 1. The first turn rule about reserves not being able to come on the table.

Dracos I am not ignoring the part about the half I think both you and Nos are missing the key and most important area of the Formation. If you were to really just think about it, it should come to you as no surprise. I guess I am gonna have to spell it out for you since you are entirely ignoring the Deathknell formation rules. Since Deathknell formation says you MUST either have all you models on the board or off the board(excluding casualties). Anytime a model would come on the board THEY MUST ALL COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!! No questions. It is a triggered effect of the formation. I do not understand how you do not get this. I think it is quite obvious.... Do you not understand that since Deathknell makes a requirement that all of the formation is either on or off that drop pod assault triggers them all HAVING TO BE ON THE BOARD?????.

Also I am not breaking the Drop Pod Assault rules, I choose the half and then the rest is triggered by the DeathKnell Formation. You are ignoring what both of them do TOGETHER!!! I understand that you are saying that in the Deathknell Formation rules, it does not say that if some of the models were to come on, the rest must as well. Because it is implied in the phrase "All the models in a battle formation (apart from casualties) MUST BE EITHER ON OR OFF THE TABLE"

If you could explain to me how half of your drop pods which are part of the Formation could be on the table, and the rest of the formation is not, based on the rules for this formation (excluding casualties)? You both need to look at how the rules work together, not how they do not. You are still not thinking logically, because I can show how I get from the first step all the way to the third with no problems. All you are spouting is that they do not work together. When in fact I am explictly telling you how they work. You are trying to again be to picky with the words. LOOK AT THEM. Just look, do not rail against them, do not argue with them, just READ them and the meaning that comes with them. Once you do that, the rules will work together like I am saying.

KP - enough with the caps and !, you just get ignored.

i know what you guys are talking about, but here is what is supposed to happen:

the number 3 rule states: 3) A formation must deploy in the same turn (page 100 Apocalypse)

by taking your specific formation, they have to be put in reserves. but with rule 2: 2) Up to half of a players Drop Pods may arrive on the first turn (Page 69 SM: Codex)

What Nos is saying is: Your drop pods might be able to come in on turn 1 because of rule 2, but because you have to keep half of your squad in stratigic reserve, the drop pod therefore must also be kept in reserve because of rule #3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rule #2 does not allow you to deploy your Formation specific, so the formation specifically has to stay in reserve because of rule #3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now second, i wanna shun you for being a space marine player and bitchin about the rules that you can and cant have....i mean, REALLY? >.< try being a necron or dark eldar player. You could not survive!

i try to bend rules for necrons all the time because of how under-powered we are. but i never try to out-do my rule bending. you on the other hand have no reason to try to bend rules. stupid space marines! DIE DIE DIE! >.<


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos I am not ignoring the part about the half I think both you and Nos are missing the key and most important area of the Formation. If you were to really just think about it, it should come to you as no surprise. I guess I am gonna have to spell it out for you since you are entirely ignoring the Deathknell formation rules. Since Deathknell formation says you MUST either have all you models on the board or off the board(excluding casualties). Anytime a model would come on the board THEY MUST ALL COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!! No questions. It is a triggered effect of the formation. I do not understand how you do not get this. I think it is quite obvious.... Do you not understand that since Deathknell makes a requirement that all of the formation is either on or off that drop pod assault triggers them all HAVING TO BE ON THE BOARD?????.

i think (inside the bold) you are missing a word there...isnt it "Anytime a model...from stratigic reserve....All come on"? if that be, then stratigic reserve is turn 2 or greater. you would then need to look up the rules for actual stratigic reserve and units being placed in stratigic reserve.

Kyric wrote:i know what you guys are talking about, but here is what is supposed to happen:

the number 3 rule states: 3) A formation must deploy in the same turn (page 100 Apocalypse)

by taking your specific formation, they have to be put in reserves. but with rule 2: 2) Up to half of a players Drop Pods may arrive on the first turn (Page 69 SM: Codex)

What Nos is saying is: Your drop pods might be able to come in on turn 1 because of rule 2, but because you have to keep half of your squad in stratigic reserve, the drop pod therefore must also be kept in reserve because of rule #3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rule #2 does not allow you to deploy your Formation specific, so the formation specifically has to stay in reserve because of rule #3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
now second, i wanna shun you for being a space marine player and bitchin about the rules that you can and cant have....i mean, REALLY? >.< try being a necron or dark eldar player. You could not survive!

i try to bend rules for necrons all the time because of how under-powered we are. but i never try to out-do my rule bending. you on the other hand have no reason to try to bend rules. stupid space marines! DIE DIE DIE! >.<


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos I am not ignoring the part about the half I think both you and Nos are missing the key and most important area of the Formation. If you were to really just think about it, it should come to you as no surprise. I guess I am gonna have to spell it out for you since you are entirely ignoring the Deathknell formation rules. Since Deathknell formation says you MUST either have all you models on the board or off the board(excluding casualties). Anytime a model would come on the board THEY MUST ALL COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!! No questions. It is a triggered effect of the formation. I do not understand how you do not get this. I think it is quite obvious.... Do you not understand that since Deathknell makes a requirement that all of the formation is either on or off that drop pod assault triggers them all HAVING TO BE ON THE BOARD?????.

i think (inside the bold) you are missing a word there...isnt it "Anytime a model...from stratigic reserve....All come on"? if that be, then stratigic reserve is turn 2 or greater. you would then need to look up the rules for actual stratigic reserve and units being placed in stratigic reserve.

Heres the thing, you have no choice when it comes to drop pod assault. It says you must deploy half rounded up. There is no choice. If you have any amount of drop pods with this rule you must deploy at least half. By the rules of formation either all of your formation is either on or off the board. So if only one of my models/units comes on the table (that is in this formation) they must all come on. How does that not make any since? Really it is an all or nothing rule. I understand that you think I am bending the rules to my advantage, but your wrong, I am discussing the way that I think it would play out. I do not play Apoc games. I just think it is to much. Also, with the rules written the way that they are, and presented, this is what seems to be right to me. If you want to discuss it please bring it on and we will work it out.

Kyric who is bitchin? I certainly am not, I do not know where you are getting this from, especailly since I am making a clear argument. If you wanna shun me go right ahead but do it because you actually have a reason. Do not just jump up on the boards and say someone is bitchin about something and decide to lay into them. That is low class and I think that shows how weak your arguement is. Stick to your guns and argue with honor and credibilty. I will say that if you go after someone on the boards you open yourself up, that is if you start talking smack they get to about you as well. So to make a long story short I really just could not give a about what you think seeing, how you have no basis for your arguement or a reason to go after me.

Nos sorry about the caps and exclams, I was just trying to make sure you understood what the important parts were. I will try and restrain myself from doing that and just bold/italics them from now on.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote: It says you must deploy half rounded up. There is no choice. If you have any amount of drop pods with this rule you must deploy at least half.

You have two different statements there, only one of which is actually backed up by the rules.

Drop Pod Assault doesn't allow you to deploy 'at least half' of your pods. It requires exactly half of them to arrive on turn 1, and the rest to arrive using the normal reserve rules.

By the rules of formation either all of your formation is either on or off the board. So if only one of my models/units comes on the table (that is in this formation) they must all come on. How does that not make any since?

It's not so much that it doesn't make sense as it's backwards. The rule requiring half of your pods to come on is an exception to the normal rules for deployment. If you're playing an Apocalypse game, those normal rules require your detachment to come on all at once.

Drop Pod Assault is the more specific rule, as it applies to a specific unit type whereas the rule requiring detachments to deploy together is a general rule that applies to everybody. As such, it breaks the general rule for how you deploy your detachments in an Apocalypse game. What you're trying to do is apply the more general deployment rule to over-ride the Drop Pod Assault's specific requirement to bring half of your pods on in turn 1.