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Again, maybe you glanced over it,
I said I don't count combi's because they are not true special weapons. In addition they cost alot for the whole package of one shot.

In addition, the rhino is a completely seperate unit, hence I would not roll it into the sum of special weapons.

Lascannons can be played around, I do not deny it. They will come up vs. cover saves alot more often (meltas have to deal with cover saves sometimes as well), but to have the oppurtunity to affect vehicles on turn 1 appeals to me and I'm sure others instead of turn 2 (but more likely 3) from the Melta CSM.

But hell, both can be in the same list...

In addition, AC/LC costs less...realistically there will be 2 AC/LC preds to the kitted out CSM squad if we are making comparisons.

Just because Chaos is a close range army doesn't mean they need to shoe-horn themselves to dealing death within 12"...the heavy support options are there for support...and the AC/LC pred does that, at an afforable cost.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:Oh it helps.... It helps.

Again, just saying so is not helpful.
Why is it better for you?

Yes. It is helpful


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Sanct
if I get to shoot the gun I get to count it. How much it costs is beside the point. The marines do other things besides killing light armor the predators are limited by comparison. But yes getting to shoot the predator turn 1 is an advantage over the CSM.
AF

if I get to shoot the gun I get to count it

By all means, I was only trying to make it clear...because from the way put it it sounded like you gave them more special weapons than they had access to.

I was only making it absolutely clear where you got your 4, then went to explain my rationale for it, but it's veering way off-corse I will admit.

How much it costs is beside the point.

It's not that balanced nor objective if points are put by the wayside. It is one of the primary ways of measuring value/worthiness. Which in turn can be used to measure 'better'.

Well if that's an important consideration for you the 2 combi meltas and 2 melta guns cost 40 the lascannon sponsons cost 60

But you can't have 2 melta guns without 10 CSMs.
You can't have Sponsons w/o the Chassis.
Hence the big numbers where effectively you have 2 AC/LC Preds for one kitted out squad of CSM.

The CSM are less expensive and more likely to kill their target. And they score. And they fight in cc. That's why I advised op not to take the predators.

10 CSM + 2 meltaguns + champ w/power weapon & combi-melta + rhino w/combi-melta = 255

Two las/AC preds = 260?

There's no argument that troops are necessary, or that meltaguns are good. But you need some long-range fire support as well.

Predators can put out four 48" range transport-busting shots a turn, starting on T1. Troops in Rhinos usually won't get into melta +2d6 range before turn 3 at the earliest. And sometimes you need those scoring units moving somewhere else; or don't want to move them in to get that shot, because they'll get assaulted and killed by Thunderwolves or Assault Terminators or something.

Preds give you a cost effective way to get more fire support/anti-transport & speeder shots into your army. That's a Good Thing. A single pred gets the same number of las shots as a pair of oblits, adds the autocannon, and costs less. Oblits have fantastic flexibility, but are generally not as durable and are more expensive.

Less expensive?

10 CSM, 2 Meltas, IoCG, Champ (combi melta as you suggest) Rhino, Combi Melta is 250 points.

This is 10 points more or 10 points less than the 120/130 AC/LC preds.

Less expensive but not by a whole lot (that's assuming the Champion doesn't go with a special close combat weapon).
________________________

CSM score yes, they fight in CC, yes.
Preds contest, they are no locked in combat...so provided they are not shaken/stunned they can still shoot/shock.

My suggestion for Preds was for the anti-transport role.
They are a supporting option, while CSM are required in the list at the very least and have other roles to deal with...they just don't deal with the role of anti-transports as cost effectively as the Preds.

The preds will have more output in the long run and have a longer list of available targets, but have to deal with cover saves.
CSM will take on targets only of oppurtunity, but will get a better result at less output.



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@Mannahnin:
Which have been said, but (correct me if I'm incorrect AF) I don't think he values that kind of longer range cover fire.

And so, no matter how we explain it, it will not impress him...even if the preds have twice the output, it just isn't enough for him I believe.

sanct
1. who said anything about icon of chaos glory.
2. yes predators cant contest. space marines score. pick 1.
3. if you're going to contest with your predator then I dont want to hear how it has twice the output. unless you're planning on contesting your own rear objective you'll have to move it around to contest something else and hence forego shooting at full capacity.
4. meltaguns kill any kind of armor. not just transports.
5. space marines fight in close combat predators don't.
6. in a 2000 point game you simply dont have enough points to buy 1 2 or 3 units dedicated to each narrow speciality. In your example you're dedicating 1/8 of your total point allocation to dealing with 1 kind of target.
7. meltaguns are more effective at killing any kind of armored target than lascannons and autocannons.
8. and they cost less.
AF

@AF:
1. /shrug, it is standard for me to give them the icon as a 10 man squad is an investmetn you want to stick, but if you don't use them, then you don't use them.
2. You 'HAVE' to have two troops, other than that, you don't 'NEED' more than than to win. Having more troops makes things 'safer' but it does not automatically mean winning at objectives either.
3. Not all objectives are in the middle of the board, there is much freedom where you put them...what's the problem?
You can place them 12" away from a board edge, while the deployment zone in pitche battle is 12"...
4. Yes, and I did note that...and I did note that the AC/LC is there mainly as anti-transport.
Just because meltas kill any kind of tank, doesn't make them efficient for all roles and situations.
5. /sigh. Predators can be charged right? They don't always need to be in the back if they need a better firing lane.
6. I will say the opposite. AC/LC preds deal with one kind of target? I did not say that and it is not true. Again, their primary role is anti-transports... most lists are mech. If it's not mech it is flexible enough to take on light tanks, heavier tanks, and medium infantry.
7. True, but they need to get there... and get there and be within 6". Certainly there are options of getting them there, but other than drop podding (which is gimmick itself), but they will not contribute at full efficiency early in the game. Some people value early aggression.
8. CSM w/ 2 meltas and rhino costs more than a AC/LC pred... It's only when you deck them out that they are cheaper than 2 AC/LC preds, but by a small margin if one does not go for things IoCG.

w/e. I've pretty much said what I have to say about this. I dont find your arguments persuasive. we can disagree.
AF

yes, troop choices... i would go for 2 squads of marines and 2 squads of berzerkers, that way they can all keep an eye on eachother... obliterators would be a good addition

AbaddonFidelis wrote:w/e. I've pretty much said what I have to say about this. I dont find your arguments persuasive. we can disagree.
AF

That's because to you, the game is as simple as "meltaguns are more effective at killing any kind of armored target than lascannons and autocannons." To the rest of us, we understand other factors such as "terrain" and "timing" and "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". Yeah that Meltagun is better at blowing up a trukk. But I want- nay, i NEED that trukk dead on turn one. You do that with a CSM Meltagun.

i NEED that trukk dead on turn one

Exactly...
AF, people value different things. You have what you like and we are noting down other options... like an anti-tank/transport option that reaches out turn 1.

Seriously, we are not spending time and energy setting people up to fail. Certainly we can suggest fun options, but even with crap options we try to be more constructive than telling people not to use a certain unit.

We are not pursuading you, we are saying that your point of view is not the only one, nor is it the only competitive one. We can agree to disagree, but there is no progress if we accept just your opinions as canon.