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So far I have:

Chaos Lord
-Terminator Armour
-Daemon Weapon
-145 pts.

5 Terminators as retinue.
-Heavy Flamer
-Champions
205 Points


10 CSM
-Aspiring Champion with power sword
-Plasma Gun and Flamer the rest have Bolters.
-Mark of Chaos Glory.
210 Points

8 Khorne Berzerkers
-Skull Champion with Plasma pistol
198 points.

The Terminator Lord and retinue have proved themselves to be a monster close combat unit so far.

Khorne Berzerkers need a Rhino definately and I'm thinking possibly a Defiler(?) for ranged support.

Looking through the psychic powers a Sorcerer with Lash of Sumbission seems like an amazing combination at drawing out those ranged units that Khorne Berzerkers have trouble getting. Or keeping away the better close combat units.

Focus on your Troop choices. 2/3 of your missions are going to require Scoring Units, and if you haven't got them, you can't win.


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Focus on your Troop choices. 2/3 of your missions are going to require Scoring Units, and if you haven't got them, you can't win.

Have your Chaos Lord join with your bezerkers for that super close combat capability, try using 2 (5-man Raptor units) for scoring. A Vindicator would fill out your army well also try a twin linked las-cannon Predator for mobile ranged.

@LordWynne:
Raptors don't score. They can contest, but that is something different.

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@OP:
I agree with Gazelle. Troops are the backbone of the army and the unit to win you games most of the time.

Ill chim in on the troops. Can never have enuff troop choices. A rhino for the zerkers will really help them out as well.

I regards to your terminator unit, I suggest your replace the champion upgrades with an icon of khorne. At the moment you’re spending 50 points to give the unit +1A whereas an icon of khorne is 30 points and provides +1A to the entire unit.

while more troops is ALWAYS good for chaos, you need to start looking towards some transports. a few rhinos, and a good strategy for getting that lord and ret into CC (probably a land raider, as deep striking is quite unreliable)

candy.man wrote:I regards to your terminator unit, I suggest your replace the champion upgrades with an icon of khorne. At the moment you’re spending 50 points to give the unit +1A whereas an icon of khorne is 30 points and provides +1A to the entire unit.

not bad advice if you need to free up 20 points, but don't forget that if the icon dies, everyone looses the attack bonus.

if you can get the bits, giving a fist and 2 melta's to your CSM might not be a bad call. you are a little light on anti-tank atm. drop the plasma pistol on the Zerk champ for a power weapon or fist (but i advise meltabombs if you arent taking a fist).

Orange
as a chaos player your strengths are your hq and troops section. my advice is to skip fast attack elites and heavies, except for obliterators from the heavies.

if you're going to run terminators upgrade their twin linked bolters to combi weapons. everything needs a rhino. plague marines and berserkers are good the other cult troops are not imo.

consider a land raider to drive out front. it's expensive and won't kill much but it could save your rhinos alot of pain and help your troops to arrive in tact. think of it as a piece of terrain you control. good luck
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Orange
as a chaos player your strengths are your hq and troops section. my advice is to skip fast attack elites and heavies, except for obliterators from the heavies.

if you're going to run terminators upgrade their twin linked bolters to combi weapons. everything needs a rhino. plague marines and berserkers are good the other cult troops are not imo.

consider a land raider to drive out front. it's expensive and won't kill much but it could save your rhinos alot of pain and help your troops to arrive in tact. think of it as a piece of terrain you control. good luck
AF

I have a Land Raider for the loyalists which is a beast for taking out tanks, and I have thought about using one for my Termies. Just a matter of points.

What do you think about Thousand Sons? I'm liking the idea of having AP3.

Let me ask you. How often do your opponent's get cover saves?
How often do you play against MEQs?
How much of the gaming group loads up on small arms?
How many points are you willing to spend on a troop squad?
Are there lots of Eldar players?

Next, I would go out an purchase a copy of Codex: Blood Angels.

Orange
thousand sons look pretty good on paper but I would really encourage you not to buy any of these guys. They are waaayyyy too expensive for what they do and after you pwn your friends with their ap 3 bolters a couple times they'll get wise and stay in cover. Spawn lesser demons thousand sons - the infernal trinity of bottom tier chaos marine units.

If you're going to run a chaos land raider I'd advise not putting any terminators inside of it, just because it costs too many points and the real strength of the chaos land raider isnt so much what it shoots but what it prevents your opponent from shooting - your rhinos.

Wildstyle is right if you want to play your best possible game run your chaos space marines as blood angels right now it's the best marine codex (with the possible exception of space wolves)
AF

Sanctjud wrote:Let me ask you. How often do your opponent's get cover saves?
How often do you play against MEQs?
How much of the gaming group loads up on small arms?
How many points are you willing to spend on a troop squad?
Are there lots of Eldar players?

Marines are massively popular where I game. Part of the reason I chose to do Chaos is to stop inter Space Marine heresies.

There's a Dark Angel player who goes heavy on veterans, mostly infantry backed up with Ezekiel or Belial. The veterans are suited and booted for close combat, which my Terminators have no real problem with. They can take a whole ten man squad in one round of assault whether charged or not. Just the Deathwing CC unit I have trouble with sometimes.

The most threatening tank I usually come up against is a Predator, Annihilator and Destructor variants, I'm thinking of Obliterators as anti armour fire. Their rules look spectacular.

Chaos troops are all pretty pricey, my marines atm with 10 men and icon and champion is over 200. Unless there's some sneaky ways of cutting points and retaining effectiveness.

And only one person I know plays smelldar.

Focus on your troops choices. Also, I'd suggest a daemon prince.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Orange
as a chaos player your strengths are your hq and troops section. my advice is to skip fast attack elites and heavies, except for obliterators from the heavies.

I have a very minor quibble with this. I agree that CSM's strongest units are indeed Troops and HQ, but I would also lump in Heavy. It is difficult to go wrong with ANY CSM troop choices, although some are stronger than others. Just max out special weapons (NOT heaviy weapons) and you're pretty much good to go. HQ is strong in that we have some dead killy stuff at a bargain price. Personally I think DP's and Kharne are the main bargains, but others can be used to good effect. For our heavies we have Oblits and Defilers, but even Havocs or Preds can be very strong chocies. Max out your Troops/HQ/Heavies and you're likely to have a strong list.

1 up

I agree dont take heavy weapons in the troop squads. I feel like plague marines and berserkers are good the other troop choices I dont care for; noise marines are fluffy so that's fun, as for normal chaos space marines they're versatile but just not really good at anything. that to me is a problem. thousand sons are really silly though. horrendously overpriced. For the HQs yeah demon princes.... I feel like kharne is missing something personally. if he had eternal warrior and a 4++ he'd rock, but he's still a pretty tough fighter. there's something wrong to me about kharne having to fear space marine terminators in a fight, but they'll pretty consistently clobber him. oh well. I feel like havocs are situational - I mean it depends on what kind of opponents your facing and what other capabilities the army has. you dont want to rely on obliterators for all your anti tank, even though they're strong they die too quick. predators are a definite out for me. alot of people like defilers, and you see them in tournament builds alot. I've never cared for them but I'm willing to grant that some of those guys may know something I don't.

But yeah maximum HQs troops and heavies the rest of the stuff you can pretty much ignore. Agree.
AF

@AF:
Why are preds out? Any tactical reasons?
I don't like the static nature, but I do realize that they are best Rate of Fire for points.

In addition the AC/LC is the best points:anti-transport ratio in the CSM Army List IMO.

Both the anti infantry and anti armor roles of the predator are better performed by other units. That's true in the smurf codex too.
AF

What other units perform better than the AC/LC Pred in either codex? Just curious what you have in mind.

Chaos space marines with meltaguns in the chaos codex landspeeders and attack bikes in the smurf book

I was considering buying a predator...How do they hold up? I would usually just prefer a vindicator over a predator...

Also, just buy a couple CSM sets. If you really want to, you can paint them to match one of the chaos gods. As far as I know, these can work as plague marines/berzerkers/noise marines/thousand sons, since they're all just variations of a vague theme, like,vague doctor

My advice is not to. They're a merely "ok" unit. In a codex with oblits and 4 special weapons per squad I just can't see it.
AF

@AF:
120-130 points for 2 Lascannons and an Autocannon.
It contributes on turn 1.

170 points for 10 CSM with 2 meltas will contribute....what? turn 3?

So... for more points you get 2 shots at turn 3.
For less points you get 6 lascannon and 6 Autocanno shots by the time the CSM get to the action.

If you give the CSM a rhino ('cause who doesn't), they get past the 200 points mark.

In addition... again, different roles.
It's hard to compare them.

CSM are the mainline, the jacks of all trades.
Preds are the cover fire option that focuses on anti-transports.
Speeders/attack bikes are generally suicidal/utility options that require the approach to opperate.

Speeders can get 2 with MMs and contribute turn 2 but are not as tough and with less shots.
__________________________
@Samus_aran115:

Vindi has its age old issues.
Preds are preds, not much has changed with what they do.


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AbaddonFidelis wrote:In a codex with oblits and 4 special weapons per squad I just can't see it.
AF

Oblits are a nice unit, but they are overtaxed at their jobs. The AC/LC pred alleviates this strain without sacrificing a troop choice to 'NEED' to be on anti-transport duty. In addition, the troopers w/ special weapons can't reach-out-and-touch-someone like the pred can do.

As for 4 special weapons... yes if you are talking about Havocs and Chosen.
For troops, it's not exactly that. It's 2 for CSM/PMs. It's only 4 if you count the combi-weapons available for the Champ and the Rhino.

The melta carrying CSM are nearly certain to kill their target. By comparison each lascannon only a 1 in 6 chance of rolling on the damage table if you assume it gets past the armor. Even against a rhino the chances are worse than that. Also CSM are scoring can fight in close combat and are far more resilient.
AF


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Why wouldn't you count the combi weapons? 4 for a marine squad 6 for a havoc or chosen squad.

1.25 chance of destroying a Rhino with four meltas (I wouldn't usually count combi-weapons as they're expensive and single-use only) as opposed to a .44 chance with a LC/AC pred

The Pred can fire earlier than the CSM and has a vastly superior range. It also has superior protection against light anti-tank fire and anti-infantry power. Depending on how you outfit your squads, the predator can also be half the cost.

If a squad of CSM shoots a tank, they cannot assault the contents. That will put them at a disadvatange, especially if the occupants were carrying melta/plasma of their own or benefit greatly from getting the charge. Good luck reaching Eldar/Dark Eldar transports if they don't want to let you.
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For a dedicated anti-transport/light tank role, the Predator is a superior buy. For anti- heavy tank, objective taking, anti-infantry, and close combat purposes, the CSM are superior. The two really don't compete as far as roles are concerned.

The melta carrying CSM are nearly certain to kill their target.

I wouldn't say that. It is not always certain and even with rhinos, that 6" double melta die is not sure deal to be in range.

I have used double melta squads for a long time. They are reliable, but I wouldn't say reliable in killing their target.
______________________________

Lascannons are infinitely superior past the 18" effective range of the meltas on foot or the 27" rhino drop-off shot.
The high str on the lascannon wins out above 6.01"
True, the AP1 is nice on the Melta.

But this is what you would be effectively comparing:

2 melta shots by (being nice) turn 2. (205 points)
vs.
4 Lascannon and 4 AutoCannon shots over two turns (120-130) (the price difference is due to loyalists getting a discount for no reason )

To be absolutely clear the AC/LC is suggested with respect to busting transport units.
The meltas are all-comers in terms of anti-tank but require a close operational range (the balancer if you will).

I do not count the combi-weapons because not everyone takes them, nor are they 'actual' special weapons past one use. In addition the rhino is a completely seperate unit.

RustyKnight wrote:
If a squad of CSM shoots a tank, they cannot assault the contents.

For a dedicated anti-transport/light tank role, the Predator is a superior buy. For anti- heavy tank, objective taking, anti-infantry, and close combat purposes, the CSM are superior. The two really don't compete as far as roles are concerned.

To correct you, they can charge the contents if the CSM shoots the transport they were in. The only issue is, the meltas should be there as back up if the AC/LC has better targets...but in general, removing the ability of the enemy to redeploy troops early is a huge benefit the CSM w/ meltas can not do as early.

Thank you for the rest of the post, good stuff.

I can see why predators are good, but really, there are better options. A heavy choice is one of the most important one you can make, and I'd prefer a defiler over a predator any day

Ruby
I don't agree with your math.
melta:
2/3 hit then 10-20/10-14 to penetrate 1/2 to destroy.
That's 20-30/60-74
that's approximately a 1 in 3 chance of destroying any armored armored target per meltagun, as opposed to:
lascannon:
2/3 hit then 10-15/10-14 to penetrate 1/2 cover 1/3 to destroy
that's 20-25/180-246
that's approximately a 1 in 10 chance for each lascannon.

The melta is obviously the more effective anti tank weapon. Delivering it is a tactical challenge CSM are a close quarters army anyway.
AF


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Sanct
Lascannons are easier for an opponent to play around. They're more likely to have to shoot at front armor and targets in cover. Melta weapons do not suffer from this problem are cheaper are more abundant can be fired on the go etc. It's a close range weapon true but CSM are a close range army so that works. Idk why you wouldn't count the combi weapons they're in the codex. If someone doesn't take them that's on them.
AF

@Samus_aran115:
/sigh... just saying it's 'better' helps not.
Why? Is there an explanation?

Defilers are big targets, that is a con.
Their armor is thinner up front, that is a con.
The Battle Cannon means it attacks different thing and does not fit the same role.
The identity crisis can be a bad thing, while it can be a good thing in the sense that it's somewhat flexible in what it attacks.

Defilers are more ... in your face offensive while Preds are more defensive...which some lean towards one or the other granted.

Oh it helps.... It helps.