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mercer wrote:Ah. Cool about Guard. Yeah keep meltas on Guard blobs.

Lascannons hit 50/50 and the large blast is going for light armour or troops. For how much it costs and how often it hits it's a waste really.

Ogyrns fun? lol. They don't do anything lol.

Yeah, the lascannons don't hit often, but what would I do for list 1 if I took them off? I've already got max troop, fast attack, and heavy support in that list, and even if I gave my Plasma CCS some carapce armor, and gave the other 3 Melta Vets metla bombs on the sergeant I'm still out 10 points. Also, It gives the 2 demolishers some range and it's ok vs AV. And it's also good against the same kinds of troops that the Demolisher Cannon is good against. If I took them off of list 2, I know where the points would go.

And yes, actually, Ogryns are actually much better than the majority of people give them credit for. I think that most people look at them and think "Wow, those are gnarly assualt troops, but they're expensive for 3 wound assualters". They'd be correct in that assumption, except that assualt is their primary purpose, not their only one.

I use them for three things: assualting, drive-by shooting, and screening. They're best with a Lord Commissar who has a power weapon and in a unit of 5, and mounted up in a chimera.
>Assualting is rather obvious (I think), but I rarely use them as counter assualt. If I do use them as counter assualt, it's only when I can get a multi charge and tarpit multiple enemy assualt units for at least a few phases.
>For shooting, it has to be from a Chimera. It gives them mobility and watching 15 S5 shoots come of the back of a chimera does wonders to your opponents psyche. It doesn't kill a whole ton of guys, as it suffers the same drawbacks as the Punisher (but punishers can't whip out 25 attacks at S6 in a turn), but it allows you to finish off remnants of units you didn't kill with something else. This allows the more important guns the opprutunity to shoot something else.
>Ogryns make a very effective screen when they're not in assualt or have been dismounted. Toughness 5 is really, really hard to deal with on terminator sized models. They're also large models, and can actually provide cover to vehicles. And at 3 wounds a piece, it takes a lot of small arms fire to kill them. If your opponent really takes the time to shoot them with S10, then they've wasted a perfectly good opprutunity to shoot at something that more devastating than ogryns.

My whole thought process behind putting them in the first list (of the 2 new ones) is because they'd be mop up. Without the numbers or Lord Commissar in there, they'd be pretty pitiful in assualt and probably wouldn't make their leadership, so I was going to run them around in the chimera and shoot and mostly dead units. BUT since I'd spaced the PBS, I'm probably going to switch them out for that.

Edit: Hmm, instead of arguing about this, It's probably better to just say "I think that any tool used properly is a good tool to use, but some tools are better than others."

mercer wrote:They don't do anything lol.

25 S6 attacks on the charge for 250 points would disagree.

Also, the idea of a ripper gun drive-by is hilarious. Watching 5 ogryn all trying to cram into that little hatch to start blasting away with auto-shotties.

Classy.

Finally some time to throw up the revised lists. Have at 'em!

List 1.1
I took the lascannons off the russ's, and changed the ogryns to a PBS. I added demolitions to both of the air-mounted Melta Vets and gave melta bombs to the other two Melta Vets.

HQ:
Company Command Squad [165]
Plasma x4
Chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer

Elites:
Psycher Battle Squad [165]
5 extra Sanctioned Psychers
Chimera

Troops:
Veteran Squad 1 [160]
Sergeant has Melta Bombs
Melta x3
Chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad 2 [160]
Sergeant has Melta Bombs
Melta x3
Chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad 3 [200]
Plasma Gun x3
Carapace Armor
Chimera with Hull Heavy Flamer

Veteran Squad 4 [130]
Demolitions
Melta x3

Veteran Squad 5 [130]
Demolitions
Melta x3

Fast Attack:
Vendetta [130]

Vendetta [130]

Hellhound [145]
With Hull Multi Melta

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher [165]
With Hull Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Demolisher [165]
With Hull Heavy Flamer

Leman Russ Battle Tank [150]

Total: 1995 points

List 2.1
I dropped a HWS of autocannons and turned it into a commissar for platoon 3. I took the extra 40 points there and turned the CCS's special weapons from flamers to plasma and added melta bombs to Platoon Commander 3. I kept the lascannons on the tanks here because I figure this list has less anti AV than list 1.

HQ:
CCS [110]
Regimental Standard, Plasma x3

Troops:
Infantry Platoon 1
>Platoon Command Squad 1 [50]
Flamer x4
>Infantry Squad 1-1 [120]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun
Commissar with Power Weapon
>Infantry Squad 1-2 [75]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun
>Infantry Squad 1-3 [75]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun
>Heavy Weapon Squad 1 [75]
Autocannon x3

Infantry Platoon 2
>Platoon Command Squad 2 [50]
Flamer x4
>Infantry Squad 2-1 [120]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun
Commissar with Power Weapon
>Infantry Squad 2-2 [75]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun
>Infantry Squad 2-3 [75]
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs
Meltagun

Infantry Platoon 3
>Platoon Command Squad [75]
Platoon Commander has Melta Bombs
Melta x4
>Infantry Squad 3-1 [100]
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher
Commissar
>Infantry Squad 3-2 [65]
Autocannon, Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack:
Vendetta [130]

Vendetta [130]

Hellhound [145]
With Multi Melta

Heavy Support:
Leman Russ Demolisher [180]
with Hull Lascannon

Leman Russ Demolisher [180]
with Hull Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tank [165]
With Hull Lascannon

Total: 1995 points

Still going to ask, which one to people think is better? I'm still leaning towards list 2.

They're about the same.

The only thing I don't like is the PCSs with 4x flamers. I'd take a meltagun out of the 4x meltagun squad and drop platoon 3's grenade launchers so that you can run all 3 PCSs with 3x melta, or something.

Ailaros wrote:
The only thing I don't like is the PCSs with 4x flamers. I'd take a meltagun out of the 4x meltagun squad and drop platoon 3's grenade launchers so that you can run all 3 PCSs with 3x melta, or something.

I'm curious as to why. I'm seeing redundancy for anti AV as being one of the reasons why, as well as having the capability spread out more within the army itself. But I think the 2 full Flamer PCSs add some anti horde to the list, which I think it'd be lacking in otherwise.

Flamers are tough to use, and 4 in a single squad is rather uneccessary, especially when you have potential use for the points elsewhere.

When I have PCSs that I'm trying to run on the cheap, I usually do only 2 of them.

Ailaros wrote:Flamers are tough to use, and 4 in a single squad is rather uneccessary, especially when you have potential use for the points elsewhere.

When I have PCSs that I'm trying to run on the cheap, I usually do only 2 of them.

Hmmm...fair enough. I had not even thought about how hard they were to use on foot, as I've been running them in a chimera for so long. You do have a point though. My last question then do you really think there's enough anti horde in my army if I ran the 3x Melta PCSs instead of the Flamer PCSs?

Yeah, probably. In 1.1 you have extra heavy flamers and in 2.1 you have lots of power weapons.

Plus, in both cases you are bringing a hellhound and 3 russes.

I mean, I guess I don't KNOW, know, but I suspect you'll be fine. I guess the only thing I can do to add to my case is inspire you to try it out.

I think i like the first reviesed list better, it seems more surviable, even if it is just more mech gaurd. It's pretty balanced and you'll have enough troops for abjective games. I am curiouse where those two left over vets going in the vendettas or on foot?

DeadGaurd wrote:I think i like the first reviesed list better, it seems more surviable, even if it is just more mech gaurd. It's pretty balanced and you'll have enough troops for abjective games. I am curiouse where those two left over vets going in the vendettas or on foot?

Those two unmounted Melta Vets go into the Vendettas.