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If that explanation is correct, it actually makes Tyranids quite similar to Orks.

Melissia wrote:If that explanation is correct, it actually makes Tyranids quite similar to Orks.

It's not.

Xyptc wrote:The Tyranids do, without any doubt (as in, it's written everywhere in the 5th Ed Codex) make use of "the Warp".

This is unfounded. I just gave another cursory glance through the codex again and would love to see some references that give credence to the "it's written everywhere" that they make use of the Warp. They are affected by it for certain, and can travel through it (though apparently not of their own volition), as often witnessed with Space Hulks.
The problem is that powers are labeled (by the Imperium) as "Warp Field" and the like.
It is the focused psychic power of the Hive Mind, not focused power of the warp, so it SHOULD be labeled "Hive Mind Field" but that does not sound as . . . cool.
No one really thinks Tyranids refer to themselves (or their abilities/weapons/hive fleets) with any of the listed names, do they?

kirsanth wrote:It is the focused psychic power of the Hive Mind, not focused power of the warp

Psychic energy IS warp energy. It may be the hive mind's warp energy-- and with the hive mind being powerful enough to suppress the warp around it, this makes it generally more reliable-- but it's still described as psychic energy, which is STILL warp energy. That's the very definition of psychic power in 40k. Other psykers can use their powers without drawing upon the perils of the warp as well-- for example, Navigators can use their powers with impunity, and they are quite different in effect than standard psychic powers.

As long as it is described as psychic energy, it's still energy drawn from the warp. It may not be the same KIND of warp energy used by other psykers, but it's still warp energy.

It does not have to be, as I have read it.
Warp is emotional, generally speaking.
It's personal.

With the Tyranids, it is not personal, it's lunch.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, thanks for posting that link, Xyptc, that was a fun read.

kirsanth wrote:Warp is emotional

The Immaterium is itself a reflection of the Materium.

Just because Blanks, for example, have a "negative" presence in the warp does not mean they're emotionless. And just because a specific Tau is highly emotional does not mean his presence in the warp is strong. Similarly, a Psyker doesn't have to be emotional to be a strong psyker (in fact, ones that are in control of their emotions tend to be better anyway).

Much the same, the Hive Mind is all the souls of the dead Tyranids amalgamated into one collective.

Melissia wrote: the Hive Mind is all the souls of the dead Tyranids amalgamated into one collective.

Wha. . .??

Never read anything akin to that.

The Hive-Mind, as I have read, it is a pan-galactic consciousness.
It would be hard to describe any of the whole to have individual "souls"--if anything the Hive-Mind itself IS the Tyranid soul.

Well in my personal interpretation, the nids hive mind is definatly connected to the warp in some way or another because nids are affected by blanks(i.e. jurgen from "For The Emperor" by Sandy Mitchell). when he closed with them they were strongly affected by his...blankness?

kirsanth wrote:

Melissia wrote: the Hive Mind is all the souls of the dead Tyranids amalgamated into one collective.

Wha. . .??

Never read anything akin to that.

The Hive-Mind, as I have read, it is a pan-galactic consciousness.
It would be hard to describe any of the whole to have individual "souls"--if anything the Hive-Mind itself IS the Tyranid soul.

That's the impression that I got from reading the codex. It's been a few years, however.

Melissia wrote:That's the impression that I got from reading the codex. It's been a few years, however.

The newer codex is a lot more explicit.

Under 'Tyranid Psykers'
"Many Tyranid creatures are also psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather they harness a fraction of the Hive Mind's gestalt will"
It goes on to say the rules are the same, but Perils are basically an embalism or synaptic feedback.

While I agree that "in any fathomable way" leaves room for doubt, "but rather they harness" seems to explain what they do instead of using Warp energies.

I've always thought of the Tyranids are both a Hive and as a collection of marionettes.

Think about this;

The Tyranid Hive Mind is made up of the collection of all Tyranid organisms' consciousness. It is sentient and intelligent.
The Hive Mind's presence blots out the light of the Astronomican and interferes with other psychic abilities due to its overwhelming warp presence.
Tyranid psykers do not draw upon the warp for their powers.


This lends to the sense that because the Hive Mind's presence is made up of the Tyranids and the Tyranids themselves do not draw upon the warp for their powers... they are controlled directly by a warp entity... the Hive Mind.


Think about a marionette (puppet), the control handle is PART of the marionette itself, without that it becomes a doll...
The control handle and strings control the doll, making it a marionette.

Now for Tyranids;
The Hive Mind is PART of every single Tyranid organism, without the Hive Mind's influence the organism is little more than a wild animal.
The Hive Mind controls the animal and drives it, directs lances of warp energy through the organism, and makes the animal a Tyranid.

There has been some speculation that if a Tyranid organism were to be cut off from the Hive Mind for a sufficient time, it would devolve into nothing more than a ferocious beast. Catachan devils have been one notable point of speculation.

I propose that Tyranids do not draw upon the warp for power. They can't. It requires some sort of willful thought to pull that power into you and then unleash it.
Tyranids are controlled directly by the Hive Mind, which is a massive warp entity created from the conciousness of all Tyranid organisms. Being controlled directly means that the Tyranids are little more than conduits for the warp energy of the Hive Mind.

In_Theory wrote:There has been some speculation that if a Tyranid organism were to be cut off from the Hive Mind for a sufficient time, it would devolve into nothing more than a ferocious beast. Catachan devils have been one notable point of speculation.

The Anphelion Project answered that rather conclusively.
The do not devolve, they actual evolve and apparently reconnect with the Hive Mind--if you assume they are ever disconnected and not simply focusing such a tiny fraction of the Hive Mind as to be practically unconnected, until they can create a new leader-beast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, to relate to the topic, I think the idea of the Hive Mind as a C'Tan is simply wrong. For. . .moral reasons.

As I said before, with the statment written on page 33 of the codex GW has contradicted themselves with previouse fluff and made the whole issue of if tyranids use the warp or not a debatable point now. But outside this one statement I believe we can be pretty conclusive they do with the evidence given thus far.

But back to the main point it is an undebatable fact that the Hive Mind is not the Outsider, points given thus far are proof for such... good day. lol

Laughing God wrote:As But outside this one statement I believe we can be pretty conclusive they do with the evidence given thus far.

What evidence?

The how about fact that these units are considered psykers?

Why would a Blank disrupt them if it were not warp-based, as a Blank only has an effect on the warp and psychic powers?

kirsanth wrote:

Melissia wrote:If that explanation is correct, it actually makes Tyranids quite similar to Orks.

It's not.

Xyptc wrote:The Tyranids do, without any doubt (as in, it's written everywhere in the 5th Ed Codex) make use of "the Warp".

This is unfounded. I just gave another cursory glance through the codex again and would love to see some references that give credence to the "it's written everywhere" that they make use of the Warp. They are affected by it for certain, and can travel through it (though apparently not of their own volition), as often witnessed with Space Hulks.
The problem is that powers are labeled (by the Imperium) as "Warp Field" and the like.
It is the focused psychic power of the Hive Mind, not focused power of the warp, so it SHOULD be labeled "Hive Mind Field" but that does not sound as . . . cool.
No one really thinks Tyranids refer to themselves (or their abilities/weapons/hive fleets) with any of the listed names, do they?

Drawing out four key quotes to illustrate both the "problem" or "confusion":

p33, paragraph 4, Tyranid Psykers, "Many Tyranid creatures are also psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind's gestalt will."
P44, paragraph 2, "Zoanthropes are created solely to harness the psychic potential of the Hive Mind..."
p44, paragraph 3, "Despite their instinctive control over their otherworldly abilities, tapping into the power of the Warp is not without danger."
p62, Warp Blast, "The Zoanthrope taps into the raw power of the Hive Mind, unleashing it as a blast of pure Warp energy..."

The crux of the argument, and the solution, are both contained neatly within the first quote. Tyranids are psykers. They "use" the Warp, in some manner or another. This is the common term 40k applies to everything that touches the Warp beyond a certain threshold. On the other hand, Tyranids do not "draw on the Warp in any fathomable way". This implies that it is different to what we find in other races. That's fine, but it doesn't automatically mean "no Warp".

The second quote makes it absolutely clear that, for instance, a Zoanthrope draws on the psychic potential of the Hive Mind. The third quote makes it abolutely clear that the Zoanthrope is "using" the Warp, in some manner or another.

The solution is neatly expressed in the fourth quote, which details the Zoanthrope using the power of the Hive Mind, which comes in the form of... Warp energy.

From all of this it's fairly easy to extrapolate that the Tyranid Hive Mind is the Tyranid presence within the Warp, and that Tyranids which manifest psychic powers draw very specifically upon that collective presence, rather than simply harnessing a passing current of Warp energy as terrestrial pyskers have to. The Tyranids display a mastery over, or perhaps it's better to say level of integration with, the Warp above and beyond anything else in the setting. It's truly symbiotic.



I think the problem you're having is that you're looking at the Warp as a sea of emotion, souls, gods and so forth. That's partially true, but consider that those emotions, souls, gods, currents and the like are merely ripples on the canvas of the Warp. Before the Old Ones seeded psychic life in this galaxy, the Warp (as far as this galaxy is concerned) was calm. It is the presence of humans, Eldar, Orks (Orks being special in their effect on the Warp) and so on that creates the emotional reflections in the Warp (and gives birth to the gods). Think of it as someone having a swimming pool, and differnet people making waves in said pool (sometimes those waves can even come back and drown their creators).

The Tyranids do not do this to the Warp. Instead, the Tyranids project their collective minds into the Warp, and the collective network forms their Hive Mind (in much the same way that the cells of your body form 'you'). Returning to the swimming pool analogy, in the Tyranids case they've seized control of the water and are making it perform acrobatic tricks in mid-air.

Now, if a human and a Tyranid want to hit something with their Warp powers, the human generates a wave where as the Tyranids crush you by lifting the water up over your head and dropping it on you - technically the water has killed you, but it was able to do so because the Tyranids used their collective might to lift the water up over your head.


It is... similar to how the Orks work, but the Orks are still a step closer to how humans, Eldar and co interract with the Warp.

Orks don't suffer Perils of the Warp, however.

Instead, they risk drawing in too much WAAAGH! energy and causing their heads to explode

Melissia wrote:Orks don't suffer Perils of the Warp, however.

Instead, they risk drawing in too much WAAAGH! energy and causing their heads to explode

Indeed, but that Waaagh! energy is still "Warp" energy. It's just Ork-controlled Warp energy, rather than untouched Warp energy or (as is the case with most Perils of the Warp instances) a sentient Warp presence trying to attack the psyker.

The comparison here with the Tyranids is strong - they are not (often) attacked by Warp entities when using their powers either (indeed, the Shadow "drives Daemons insane within the Warp" when it's concentrated enough - suggesting that the Tyranid-imposed structure on the Warp literally shred the Daemon's structure), but rather run the risk of drawing too much of their own power into themselves and burning out.

IMO Xptc wins an internet.

Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying when I made the comparison much earlier in this thread.

Xyptc wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Melissia wrote:If that explanation is correct, it actually makes Tyranids quite similar to Orks.

It's not.

Xyptc wrote:The Tyranids do, without any doubt (as in, it's written everywhere in the 5th Ed Codex) make use of "the Warp".

This is unfounded. I just gave another cursory glance through the codex again and would love to see some references that give credence to the "it's written everywhere" that they make use of the Warp. They are affected by it for certain, and can travel through it (though apparently not of their own volition), as often witnessed with Space Hulks.
The problem is that powers are labeled (by the Imperium) as "Warp Field" and the like.
It is the focused psychic power of the Hive Mind, not focused power of the warp, so it SHOULD be labeled "Hive Mind Field" but that does not sound as . . . cool.
No one really thinks Tyranids refer to themselves (or their abilities/weapons/hive fleets) with any of the listed names, do they?

Drawing out four key quotes to illustrate both the "problem" or "confusion":

p33, paragraph 4, Tyranid Psykers, "Many Tyranid creatures are also psykers. They do not draw power from the Warp in any fathomable way, but rather harness a fraction of the Hive Mind's gestalt will."
P44, paragraph 2, "Zoanthropes are created solely to harness the psychic potential of the Hive Mind..."
p44, paragraph 3, "Despite their instinctive control over their otherworldly abilities, tapping into the power of the Warp is not without danger."
p62, Warp Blast, "The Zoanthrope taps into the raw power of the Hive Mind, unleashing it as a blast of pure Warp energy..."

The crux of the argument, and the solution, are both contained neatly within the first quote. Tyranids are psykers. They "use" the Warp, in some manner or another. This is the common term 40k applies to everything that touches the Warp beyond a certain threshold. On the other hand, Tyranids do not "draw on the Warp in any fathomable way". This implies that it is different to what we find in other races. That's fine, but it doesn't automatically mean "no Warp".

The second quote makes it absolutely clear that, for instance, a Zoanthrope draws on the psychic potential of the Hive Mind. The third quote makes it abolutely clear that the Zoanthrope is "using" the Warp, in some manner or another.

The solution is neatly expressed in the fourth quote, which details the Zoanthrope using the power of the Hive Mind, which comes in the form of... Warp energy.

From all of this it's fairly easy to extrapolate that the Tyranid Hive Mind is the Tyranid presence within the Warp, and that Tyranids which manifest psychic powers draw very specifically upon that collective presence, rather than simply harnessing a passing current of Warp energy as terrestrial pyskers have to. The Tyranids display a mastery over, or perhaps it's better to say level of integration with, the Warp above and beyond anything else in the setting. It's truly symbiotic.



I think the problem you're having is that you're looking at the Warp as a sea of emotion, souls, gods and so forth. That's partially true, but consider that those emotions, souls, gods, currents and the like are merely ripples on the canvas of the Warp. Before the Old Ones seeded psychic life in this galaxy, the Warp (as far as this galaxy is concerned) was calm. It is the presence of humans, Eldar, Orks (Orks being special in their effect on the Warp) and so on that creates the emotional reflections in the Warp (and gives birth to the gods). Think of it as someone having a swimming pool, and differnet people making waves in said pool (sometimes those waves can even come back and drown their creators).

The Tyranids do not do this to the Warp. Instead, the Tyranids project their collective minds into the Warp, and the collective network forms their Hive Mind (in much the same way that the cells of your body form 'you'). Returning to the swimming pool analogy, in the Tyranids case they've seized control of the water and are making it perform acrobatic tricks in mid-air.

Now, if a human and a Tyranid want to hit something with their Warp powers, the human generates a wave where as the Tyranids crush you by lifting the water up over your head and dropping it on you - technically the water has killed you, but it was able to do so because the Tyranids used their collective might to lift the water up over your head.


It is... similar to how the Orks work, but the Orks are still a step closer to how humans, Eldar and co interract with the Warp.

Ya what he said haha

I disagree with 'The Warp' as the base unit or foundation upon which all psychic resonance emerges.

The Warp, in 40k terms, is the psychic gestalt of several sentient races' emotions (namely Humanity and Eldar). That the warp is a giant pulsating hell-hole is a result of human/[Dark] Eldar negative emotions being so much stronger or more commonplace than positive emotions.

So although the Warp is a resonance of psychic energy, not all psychic energy has to originate from the Warp. Other races have psychic resonance like the Nids (Hive Mind gestalt intelligence) and Orks (WAAAAUGH!), but their psychic resonance isn't necessarily similar to that of the Warp, even though the effect can be similar or the energies can interact with each other.

To me, it makes far more sense to say that the only constant in 40k is that everything does have some sort of psychic presence, and like protons and electrons, they can interact to attract, repel, or form some sort of crazy blend between each other.

Like how lightning/weather can mess with radio (etc.) transmissions.

That does not mean that lightning/weather is radio (etc.) transmissions.

You may disagree, but you'd be wrong. The ability to manipulate warp energy is what defines a psyker. Navigators manipulate warp energy through their third eye, weirdboyz manipulate warp energy indirectly through the waaagh!, farseers use the warp to peer into the various paths of the future, and zoanthropes use warp energy indirectly through using the hive mind's power, as the hive mind itself is a presence in the warp.

As for your... theory... own what the warp is, I have to wonder where you get that from? There's no evidence to back up such a theory. If that were the case, one could not travel through the warp. The Materium is, effectively, a distinct realm, separate and yet connected to the materium. It would exist without emotions, and indeed did exist before living beings had emotions. The materium is effected by the immaterium, and vice versa, but they both exist separately. The chaos gods and daemons feed off of emotions, but the immaterium itself has no such need.

Tyranids do not travel through the Warp. At least not of their own power.

Do you have a source for this? If they do not travel under their own power, then it would be quite literally impossible for the Hive Mind to coordinate an attack on this galaxy.

Even Orks manage to travel through the warp under their own power (they just don't usually bother to aim).

ITs true they dont use the warp for travel.

They use a form of travel undifinable and defies ensteins laws of phyisics. Makes 0 sense. It would take them millions of years to actually reach terra, maybe more. good job GW.

But sometimes hivefleets get sucked into the warp and come out in a different time and place by accident, often times "changed" and mutated by the warp.

sourclams wrote:I disagree with 'The Warp' as the base unit or foundation upon which all psychic resonance emerges.

The Warp, in 40k terms, is the psychic gestalt of several sentient races' emotions (namely Humanity and Eldar). That the warp is a giant pulsating hell-hole is a result of human/[Dark] Eldar negative emotions being so much stronger or more commonplace than positive emotions.

The warp is simply chaotic energy. Sentient races helped give birth to the consciousness (Gods) found within...

AgeOfEgos wrote:

sourclams wrote:I disagree with 'The Warp' as the base unit or foundation upon which all psychic resonance emerges.

The Warp, in 40k terms, is the psychic gestalt of several sentient races' emotions (namely Humanity and Eldar). That the warp is a giant pulsating hell-hole is a result of human/[Dark] Eldar negative emotions being so much stronger or more commonplace than positive emotions.

The warp is simply chaotic energy. Sentient races helped give birth to the consciousness (Gods) found within...

The warp was not always so. The Old Ones war with the C'tan made it so. Once upon a time the Warp was a peacful place that reflected our docile galaxy. The eldar gods thrived there in peace and the eldar used to be able to reincarnate through its power. But the suffering and war changed it into a place of chaos, giving rise to the enslavers. Chaos always existed in the warp, just not in abundence.- Necron codex

Laughing God wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

sourclams wrote:I disagree with 'The Warp' as the base unit or foundation upon which all psychic resonance emerges.

The Warp, in 40k terms, is the psychic gestalt of several sentient races' emotions (namely Humanity and Eldar). That the warp is a giant pulsating hell-hole is a result of human/[Dark] Eldar negative emotions being so much stronger or more commonplace than positive emotions.

The warp is simply chaotic energy. Sentient races helped give birth to the consciousness (Gods) found within...

The warp was not always so. The Old Ones war with the C'tan made it so. Once upon a time the Warp was a peacful place that reflected our docile galaxy. The eldar gods thrived there in peace and the eldar used to be able to reincarnate through its power. But the suffering and war changed it into a place of chaos, giving rise to the enslavers. Chaos always existed in the warp, just not in abundence.- Necron codex

I wasn't speaking to the history of the warp, just what it currently is. I think we received our information from the same place;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos

Tyranids travel FTL via creating a gravity well. While not real physics, please just ignore that.
Mellissa, what are you smoking? really now, "the hive mind is the collection of all dead tyranids" What?