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Yeah, I think snipers as presented are fairly solid. Joetaco summed it up pretty well. They're not the super-awesome badasses dominating the battlefield that some posters want, and I'm okay with that.

I do think there should be an option to pick out key enemy targets within a squad, perhaps each 'to hit' roll of a 6 can be allocated to a target?

helgrenze wrote:I believe the premise for a sniper taking out an AV11/12 vehicle is based on the "lucky/skilled shot". That is finding just the right place to disable personel inside or a chink in the armor.
A prime example of a hard tank that could be taken out with a single "lucky"shot is from WWII. Some German tanks were known to leak fuel and could be set ablaze (they used Gas not diesel) by causing a large enough spark.

Umm, what German tanks used petrol? That was a design feature of early Shermans, and particularly unusual. They did have a reputation for catching on fire, but it's debatable whether this was due to the petrol engines or other features, such as the ammo stowage.

The Odessey wrote:This is very true, the second highest scoring (god that's a horrible way to put it) German sniper (More on him later, the name excapes me) killed ten drivers of of slow moving Russian half-tracks (this was in his autobiography).

What Russian halftracks? Halftracks were common in US and German forces, but not the Russians.

sebster wrote:

helgrenze wrote:I believe the premise for a sniper taking out an AV11/12 vehicle is based on the "lucky/skilled shot". That is finding just the right place to disable personel inside or a chink in the armor.
A prime example of a hard tank that could be taken out with a single "lucky"shot is from WWII. Some German tanks were known to leak fuel and could be set ablaze (they used Gas not diesel) by causing a large enough spark.

Umm, what German tanks used petrol? That was a design feature of early Shermans, and particularly unusual. They did have a reputation for catching on fire, but it's debatable whether this was due to the petrol engines or other features, such as the ammo stowage.

The Tiger II, like all German tanks, it had a gasoline engine; in this case the same 700 PS (690 hp, 515 kW) V-12 Maybach HL 230 P30 which powered the much lighter Panther and Tiger I tanks. The Tiger II was under-powered, like many other heavy tanks of World War II, and consumed a lot of fuel, which was in short supply for the Germans.
Jentz, Thomas; Doyle, Hilary (1997). Germany's Tiger Tanks - Vk45 to Tiger II: Design, Production & Modifications. West Chester: Schiffer Publishing. ISBN 9780764302244.
Jentz, Thomas; Doyle, Hilary (1993). Kingtiger Heavy Tank, 1942-45. London: Osprey. ISBN 1-85532-282-X.
Jentz, Thomas (1996). Panzertruppen 2: The Complete Guide to the Creation & Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force 1943-1945. Schiffer. ISBN 9780764300806.

Does that answer your question? Or do I need more references?

helgrenze wrote:Does that answer your question? Or do I need more references?

Nope, that's plenty. I was quite mistaken, and thankyou for the correction.

getting rid of half tracks was easy. smaller german ones front wheels were very large and could easily be blown. [the flaws of the first models.]

Heres a thought not having to do with power of the weapon but whynot give sniper weapon weilding units the ability to allocate wounds. Simple and Scout Sgt Tellion of the Space marine has the same rule . It to me at least gives the edge snipers have in real life.

Captain Solon wrote:
It is easier for snipers to do that duty. it's definatly not as hard as being a medic, but definatly not as easy as a judge.

HURR DURR? lets here your amazing sniper stories Solon. I doubt (this is coming from someone who does not know the reality and horrors of war) that its easier for a sniper to kill people than it is for a normal infantry man to kill people. Arguably yes the sniper would be a sharpshooter and would likely be in a forward concealed position, but thats already in the game (better BS on sniper units (except for marines), infiltrate and camo cloaks (and equiv))

Captain Solon wrote:by that same note they can realise that if:

'me go shoot big boom boom it go stop.'
'or, kill the guy with the biggest gun and he might stop shooting.'

doesn't always work.

there are people who would stick thier head out while they're being fired upon by an heavy "anti-infantry" weapon? Gatling Canon comes to mind. though I suppose the turret of a humvee is enough. once again, I say that I wouldn't shoot at it, I don't want to die~

oh yeah, there are people who do that, not many people like that left are there?

why would they have to stick out their head?

I mean, I'm sitting in heavy hedgerow. I can see through it.

if I'm in a building/ruin, I kick out some of the wall.

A heavy bolter can punch through wall [forwhatever reason] and hit me even if I'm hiding.

I'm really no safer from micro-missiles behind cover.

You're debating different uses of sniper fire.

You get one kind of sniper which would lie in waiting near the enemy base camp and try to pick off the highest ranking officer he/she could find. These guys weren't really expected to survive after the shot. Popular movie reference: there's plenty, but take Forest Gump

Then you get the battlefield application, which is more or less there to provide reach and suppressive fire. I believe Full Metal Jacket had a decent enough representation of this kind of sniper. Seriously wound one member of an ordinary patrol and wait for the rest of them to overcome their fear and try to help the wounded fellow - then pick them off one by one. That has nothing to do with target priority at all.

You know the SVD Dragunov was originally developed to give the military a better reach, not to be a sniper.

I won't go into more detail than that, I'll just get shot down with cold hard facts, but suffice to say in WH40K we get the sort of snipers that provide cover fire and kill whatever troops they can. Vindicare assassins are an aberration that's only there for the cools.

P.s. There's also the little matter of gameplay balance. If I were to bring a squad of Rangers, would you *ever* let your psychers out of their vehicles?

Rather than heavy sniper rifles, I would like to see a BS bonus. Attribute it to the scope and the "Heavy" status of the weapon. The plus is always the "I wound anything" with T stat on a 4+ and the rending. The problem I have is the demise of a marine scout with a now BS 3. I like the reasoning for the lessened BS skill on a scout marine but it is truely a stupid use of a raw recruit having a 1 shot 50/50 to hit and wound weapon. Either let me take elite scouts like DA have or don't wast my time.

I know this would make the current BS 4 scouts almost automatic but still they only wound on a 4+. The current emphasis on decisive CC really already puts a big minus on fire-dedicated troop choices but I would like to see them be a viable choice.

I think current sniper rifles are fine.

But the presence of an actual heavy sniper rifle would be a great squad upgrade as a heavy weapon. Perhaps a heavy bolter reworked for use as a sniper rifle with special ammunition? Would be an interesting weapon....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DAaddict wrote:Rather than heavy sniper rifles, I would like to see a BS bonus. Attribute it to the scope and the "Heavy" status of the weapon. The plus is always the "I wound anything" with T stat on a 4+ and the rending. The problem I have is the demise of a marine scout with a now BS 3. I like the reasoning for the lessened BS skill on a scout marine but it is truely a stupid use of a raw recruit having a 1 shot 50/50 to hit and wound weapon. Either let me take elite scouts like DA have or don't wast my time.

If you want elite scouts go play DA or SW.

Codex marines don't have them. Your codex should not have everything.

Sniper rifles should really just stay as they are and give a +1 bonus to BS showing the advanced scope and alterations that take place on the sniper rifle.
They aren't bad at the minute but they don't have the impact that many would like. There is always he chance that they are just being used wrong...

Imp. Monkey

So you want ratlings to have BS5?

I'd just like to note that adding a strength value to the sniper weapon could reasonably add a chance to reroll wounds if the str value meets or exceeds its target's toughness, ala poisoned weapons.

Captain Solon wrote:why would they have to stick out their head?

I mean, I'm sitting in heavy hedgerow. I can see through it.

if I'm in a building/ruin, I kick out some of the wall.

A heavy bolter can punch through wall [forwhatever reason] and hit me even if I'm hiding.

I'm really no safer from micro-missiles behind cover.

sure you're safer, the enemy can't see you when you're behind a solid wall till you show yourself through a gap. hug the floor and hope the enemy won't bust through anyway. and besides, they, uh, why are we talking about this?

Imperial Monkey wrote:Sniper rifles should really just stay as they are and give a +1 bonus to BS showing the advanced scope and alterations that take place on the sniper rifle.
They aren't bad at the minute but they don't have the impact that many would like. There is always he chance that they are just being used wrong...

Imp. Monkey

did you know Sniper weapons used to always hit on a 2+ but had no rending?

Lotet wrote:did you know Sniper weapons used to always hit on a 2+ but had no rending?

I didn't, although I only started playing halfway through fourth Edition so I was probably a bit late for that.

Valkyrie wrote:Do we really have to go into the whole real-life discussion?

But that's what makes these debates fun! And repetitive! And asinine! And well, quite frankly, stupid! *haha*

Alright, joking aside, I think that Joetaco said it best. It was QFT'ed already, so I won't repost it, but just to reiterate what he meant, snipers rifles in 40K do in fact mirror many of the capabilities that sniper rifles today are capable of. From the occasional "lucky head shot/tank shot" to the most skilled of users, 40K has, I think, accounted for all of these intangibles that real human nature brings to the game.

Personally, I think Sniper Rifles are fine just the way they are in the game, with the exception of having a better AP value. AP 6, seems a bit weak, since many of today's rifles are capable of penetrating more than just a wife beater/t-shirt.

I llike sniper rifles the way they are, thank you. I often kill MCs with them; though it would make sense if they had some AP at least. It's a high-power, high-velocity round for goodness sake, it should be able to kill a guardsman in flak armor without allowing a save, at least.

+1 to hit and I would be a happy dandy.

I think sniper rifles are fine as it is. If you want to have elites with a high BS firing sniper rifles, then you should make a unit which you think is more appropriate for using Sniper Rifles than scouts (which aren't the only ones that use sniper rifles anyway!).

Melissia wrote:I think sniper rifles are fine as it is. If you want to have elites with a high BS firing sniper rifles, then you should make a unit which you think is more appropriate for using Sniper Rifles than scouts (which aren't the only ones that use sniper rifles anyway!).

I agree. Sniper rules are fine. The problem is the limits on which units take them. You wouldn't give sniper rifles to any old guardsmen. You would want to give the weapon to someone who would actually do something with it. Since SM scouts are now BS 3 it means that chapters are (In short) arming their worst shooters with sniper weapons and that doesn't make much sense. And, scouts are the only unit who can take sniper rifles in the SM codex.

Imp. Monkey

I was thinking of Ratling Snipers when I said that. They're BS4 compared to the normal BS3 of a Guardsman.

CrazyThang wrote:
All that aside, the sniping rule is fine as it stands. BS is still how well the shooter can hit. The lack of strength (wasn't there something that said treat str x weapons as str 2 vs. vehicles now or something?) simply represents your one shot actually wounding someone in a large, mobile squad. A 6 to rend represents a (probably lucky) headshot. Imho of course.

Joetaco isn't the hero here I am :( I said that first...

I guess he just worded it slightly better. /jealousy

I guess I should have said fixed wound rather than lack of str. And mentioned vehicles.

Actually this is kinda something I touched on with my Sisters fandex.

The Novitiates had "marksman autorifles" as an option for weaponry, which were 30" sniper rifles that could instead be used as 24" rapid fire weapons. This represents SDM rifles-- Squad Designated Marksman, accurized versions of normal weapons.

Then I created an elites choice (inspired by the various Sisters models which have scopes on their boltguns) which used accurized bolters which are also SDM weapons, and the squad sergeant has a heavy bolter converted into anti-materiel rifle (IE, a heavy sniper rifle).

The latter was the true sniper unit. The former was merely a unit of novitiates (Sisters who have yet to take their vows) essentially being trained in marksmanship in a live fire environment with the targets being whatever opponents are in the field.

Does it make sense to modern soldiers? Nope, but it is how the Imperium works.

I am a fan of a sliding scale for the sniper rifle to represent the skill required to fire and the toughness of the shot. I say use ballistic skill X. X being your choice of 1 - 5.

Heres the idea. You choose your BS based on the skill needed for the shot your want to take.

For instance. You just want to hit the target and you don't care where. BS 5 AP6

This would be the sniper table:

Full body BS5 AP6
Upperbody BS4 AP5
Chest BS3 AP4
Vital Organ BS2 AP3
Headshot BS1 Auto Rend, no roll to wound

All other shots still only wound on a 4+

So your ballistic skill narrows as your target size goes down and your Ap gets better as your target more important areas.

All shots have to be of the same type and you delcare before firing.