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Hi guys, trailing off from some older threads of mine I've been thinking about this alot lately.

Don't change the rule much. it gets complicated. but heres the idea:

Give snipers strength values.

Why?

Well, the justification is that they can hit soft body parts. however, My friend marbo's little pistol would probably be unable to do much more then S2.

whereas a guardsmens sniperrifle is S3
And a Ratling/Scoutmarines would be S4.

Why?

Well,

I Imagine that a even if I could target the soldiers soft spots, then if I was using a hyperpowered sniperrifle, I might be able to do this a little better.

I have two propositions:

1st:

The unit may hit with the value that would allow them to strike best.
that is, he may either fire on the 4+, or, [let's say he's a scout] so he'd have S4. the SM could then use the 3+ to wound roll. [4+ sniper basic, or the S4 By T3 3+ to wound.]

2nd:
The unit hit's as if a basic T V S roll, +1. [effectively means a S1 weapon could wound a T10 unit.]. in the example above, I'd wound on a 2+. [to a maximum of 2+.]

One problem with the second idea: that S1 V T10 I mentioned? yeah. it'd be on a six, right? So there would be that pretty little rend. thats a bit overpowered.
I move for then, that the weapon can not wound them normally, then he cannot use the rend rule. though that may be unnecesarily difficult.

I prefered the first one.

Snipers are fine as they are, the SX represents getting headshots etc, as if you would give it a strength value it would be either underpowered or overpowered depending on the user and opponent.

I suggest that the way snipers could be improved is to give them a better Ap value. All sniper rifles (one exception of the Exitus Rifle) are Ap6 or 5. Look at today's sniper weaponry: we have .50 cal snipers that can immobolise vehicles. Jump 40000 years into the future and you would think that we would have advanced a little with the tech.

Valkyrie wrote:Snipers are fine as they are, the SX represents getting headshots etc, as if you would give it a strength value it would be either underpowered or overpowered depending on the user and opponent.

I suggest that the way snipers could be improved is to give them a better Ap value. All sniper rifles (one exception of the Exitus Rifle) are Ap6 or 5. Look at today's sniper weaponry: we have .50 cal snipers that can immobolise vehicles. Jump 40000 years into the future and you would think that we would have advanced a little with the tech.

That's what miffs me about sniper rifles. If we can penetrate tanks now, why not then? Good point man.

And we give these heavy sniper rifles to every sniping unit we have right?

No. Basic sniping weapons are little better than a standard rifle with slight reworking on the mechanisms, possibly a longer barrel (depending on the rifle), and a powerful scope. Sniper rifles do not score kills due to sheer power (usually), they score kills due to the snipers skill and aim. They simply have the range and the ability to keep good stopping power at range to allow the sniper to do his job.

Granted a rifle built for sniping exclusively (PSG-1, M82 and its variants, etc.) will usually be stronger/more accurate/longer range than thev previously mentioned reworked rifles (like the M21 basically being an M14). Many times more powerful yes.

Remember in WWII, snipers had slightly retooled and higher quality but STILL basic rifles with scopes.

All that aside, the sniping rule is fine as it stands. BS is still how well the shooter can hit. The lack of strength (wasn't there something that said treat str x weapons as str 2 vs. vehicles now or something?) simply represents your one shot actually wounding someone in a large, mobile squad. A 6 to rend represents a (probably lucky) headshot. Imho of course.

EDIT:
Oh and penetrate tanks?! Yes that's why we use .50 cals against main battle tanks. It is called an anti-material rifle not a "kill everything HURR!" rifle. APCs maybe. Light transports? Sure, sometimes.

GAH! another "lets make snipers as god awesome as the guy from saving private ryan," thread.
i vote, we kill this thread

Yes we do have .50 cal rifles but they are actually alot harder to use then your typical sniper rifle. I could understand them adding a heavy sniper rilfe that is like the .50 cal but I imagine it would be a one per squad sorta thing.

As others have said what makes a sniper rifle so great is its range and ability to put a buller where you want. Ussually the head. Which I think is showen with the rending.

Sniper rifles, IIRC, against vehicles are str 3 +rending... so on a hit it should be str 3 +d6... if a '6' is rolled then +d3 is added for a range of 10-12 with rending
Isn't that the range of most vehicles save heavy tanks?

...
Nevermind. Answered below.

I'm pretty certain its +d3 if a 6 is rolled for pen.

That sounds right. Thanks!

Joetaco wrote:GAH! another "lets make snipers as god awesome as the guy from saving private ryan," thread.
i vote, we kill this thread

Not make them awesome, no need to be rude., but just make them that bit more workable.

you've got to agree with me, Not all snipers would be equal. better yet, they shouldn't even be able to destroy AV11. but, you know, it's justified.

Captain Solon wrote:

Joetaco wrote:GAH! another "lets make snipers as god awesome as the guy from saving private ryan," thread.
i vote, we kill this thread

Not make them awesome, no need to be rude., but just make them that bit more workable.

you've got to agree with me...

No, we do not.

I believe the premise for a sniper taking out an AV11/12 vehicle is based on the "lucky/skilled shot". That is finding just the right place to disable personel inside or a chink in the armor.
A prime example of a hard tank that could be taken out with a single "lucky"shot is from WWII. Some German tanks were known to leak fuel and could be set ablaze (they used Gas not diesel) by causing a large enough spark.

helgrenze wrote:I believe the premise for a sniper taking out an AV11/12 vehicle is based on the "lucky/skilled shot". That is finding just the right place to disable personel inside or a chink in the armor.
A prime example of a hard tank that could be taken out with a single "lucky"shot is from WWII. Some German tanks were known to leak fuel and could be set ablaze (they used Gas not diesel) by causing a large enough spark.

This is very true, the second highest scoring (god that's a horrible way to put it) German sniper (More on him later, the name excapes me) killed ten drivers of of slow moving Russian half-tracks (this was in his autobiography).

This explains the armor killing possiblilities of sniper weapons. The only thing that I'd change is AP value of snipers. Hot-shot rounds (the type used by guardsmen) are AP 3 in the new codex.

Sorry for the deviation of plot, still food for thought.

I like the rule as it stands, except I would add:
The controlling player may choose to designate a single target for each model with the Sniper special rule before any To Hit rolls are made. All rolls To Hit and To Wound are resolved against this target's profile.

Captain Solon wrote:Not make them awesome, no need to be rude., but just make them that bit more workable.

you've got to agree with me, Not all snipers would be equal. better yet, they shouldn't even be able to destroy AV11. but, you know, it's justified.

I don't agree at all, not all snipers were/are Vasily Zaytsev. the proper way to do a sniper (in my eyes) is represent an infiltration element to their tactics (already done), give them a weapon which does damage on where it hits rather than on the round itself (already done w/ 4+ wound), and give them the ability to damage light vehicles and eliminate high armor infantry on a good shot (done w/ rending)

Joetaco wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:Not make them awesome, no need to be rude., but just make them that bit more workable.

you've got to agree with me, Not all snipers would be equal. better yet, they shouldn't even be able to destroy AV11. but, you know, it's justified.

I don't agree at all, not all snipers were/are Vasily Zaytsev. the proper way to do a sniper (in my eyes) is represent an infiltration element to their tactics (already done), give them a weapon which does damage on where it hits rather than on the round itself (already done w/ 4+ wound), and give them the ability to damage light vehicles and eliminate high armor infantry on a good shot (done w/ rending)

Agreed.

Well said btw.

armbarred wrote:I like the rule as it stands, except I would add:
The controlling player may choose to designate a single target for each model with the Sniper special rule before any To Hit rolls are made. All rolls To Hit and To Wound are resolved against this target's profile.

think of it like this, you're playing a FPS and 10 dudes come from around the corner that you've been facing towards from your camp, do you
a) pick out the leader (who is the guy with a Chainsword)
b) fire at the first guy you see

in most games, you don't get to choose who you can shoot, if you don't fire then duck for cover then you will be shot by those dudes. you don't think ratlings keep thier heads out in view of the enemy do you? this in war and the enemy isn't going to wonder where the shots camp from if you took the time to pick out a leader (or heavy weapons guy)

besides, what if they all have the same hats, you're not looking at thier weapons, you're looking at thier heads

That is the entire point of a sniper. Lay and wait. Visually determine the best target, or you have intel that pre-determines your target. Then you wait and take the best shot possible.

Do we really have to go into the whole real-life discussion?

You want a whole squad of Vindicare Assassins?

Being able to pick any specific model
Better anti-tank
Being able to insta-kill
Wound on 2+

The only thing that would make Vindicare special in this case, would practically be the stealth suit...
But of course, the vindicare, only has 1 bullet each of these, whilst your would have inifinite...
But naaaaah, that wouldn't be overpowered.. at all...

armbarred wrote:That is the entire point of a sniper. Lay and wait. Visually determine the best target, or you have intel that pre-determines your target. Then you wait and take the best shot possible.

no, that's the best you can hope a sniper to do

Maybe here in australia, [and the general west] where we need to take 3 warning shots first.

I know you don't as a sniper.

anyway, thats the SNIPERS DUTY. not the best you can hope for.

yeah and the Police Officers Duty is to Protect and Serve
a Judge must provide Justice
and Doctor are there to Save Lives
it isn't so easy to do your duty

I'm sure a Sniper can be awesome, but when the battle starts and your comrades are dying you get a sense of mortality in that you can die just as easily as any of those guys. when the enemy is blasting in your general vecinity you know that sticking your head out is putting you at risk. you don't see everything in front of you, you only see what's in your scope, you spent 3 seconds to aim and you're probably gonna die, soldiers know this.

a Sniper always sets up in the best possible location, but what happens when the enemy isn't in the place you expect them to be?

Lotet. your aussie. the number one use of police men here is to raise revenue in the form of unfair speeding fine.

Judges don't.

Doctors have to. if they don't they get sued. [Patel is thought of, but my mother too.]

It is easier for snipers to do that duty. it's definatly not as hard as being a medic, but definatly not as easy as a judge.

well, you're less likely to shoot the guy that will cause the most damage than compare to shooting a random grunt. armbarred wanted for every sniper to pick his target, how can a sniper even shoot a guy who is fireing a heavy bolter at him iin the first place? I don't know about you but I wouldn't even try to take the shot till I've moved away to some new cover, by that time the regular infantry have probably dealt with the problem. there are plenty of things that can go wrong, I say Snipers work fine as they are

it's why we have Vindicare Assassins, naturally. they do everything you expect of them. they are exactly what the ideal sniper is meant to be. if there were hundreds of enemies attacking my allies I would just try to kill as many as possible, which isn't much. the Vindicare is your typical guy with talent and a life of training

besides, Eldar Rangers and Ratling Snipers don't even have Sergent types, they probably can't even grasp how much difference those people make

sorry if I'm repeating anything, I'm a big fan of Semantics

by that same note they can realise that if:

'me go shoot big boom boom it go stop.'
'or, kill the guy with the biggest gun and he might stop shooting.'

doesn't always work. but if I could focus 9 sniper rifles on a sergeant and a heavy bolter, I can pin them at Ld6 on average. it'd be a useful - if overpowered additon to the sniper class.

but it would make my friend telion useless.

Captain Solon wrote:
Don't change the rule much. it gets complicated. but heres the idea:

It works fine the way that it is. If it's complicated and makes less sense, I won't play it.

Captain Solon wrote:...but it would make my friend telion useless.

This is actually the problem some of us are trying show you in regards to pumping up the current "sniper" weapons. There are other varients on this sort of soldier that are supposed to be much better then your average sharpshooter but in order to not make them drastically OP, something else (Generic Snipers) needs to be toned down. Right now Snipers are very useful in specific roles, one example that comes to mind is an IG player in Tactics asking what to do about the Eldar player who fields an Avatar and basic guardians in a 500 pt game. The solution seemed to relay on Heavy Support from Hydras at a pretty high cost. But a few sniper rifles in with the veterans were an extremley cheap way of dropping 4+ wounds on the Avatar at long range as a second line of defence, that did not exclude or interfear with the primary method. This brought the IG veteran squads from being seen as a detrimental overhead cost to acctually contributing to the fight.

Having genric Troops that are able to hurt MC's, Avatars, GD's and hero's on a 4+ at that kind of range regardless of what your opponent paid in points for their toughness is more then enough reason to take them now. Ok, so it doesn't penetrate Terminator armor, feel free to walk down the center of the board with your 200+ pt HQ if that's how you really think . You have tanks? I have melta's. Use the right tool for the right job.

I think a big problem with snipers, is that people immediately expect any guy armed with a sniper rifle to be this super specialist guy that gets nothing but headshots.
(On an RL note, to my knowledge snipers are generally not trained to take headshots anyway)

This is not the case, Scouts with sniper rifles are not any more specialised than a scout with a CCW.
They are not trained to prioritise targets any more than any other scout, they see the enemy and try to take him down.

The Vindicare is an example of a true specialist, that is why he has all those cool rules, because he is an assassin, not a guy with a scope on his gun.