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Inigo Montoya wrote:Under normal circumstances, I take them with combi weapons only.

Super trick:

8 Sternguard in a pod with 2 x melta nad 6 x combi melta
Combat squad when you hit into 1 x melta 3 x combi melta squads. 2 dead tanks. Yum.

Just works wonderfully.

Not only is it great, it is also illegal you must have a 10 man unit in order to combat squad.

I like how he calls it a 'Super trick' too.

Protip: Cheating, gets 'em every time , just kidding.

I personally don't really like sternguard all that much. The special ammo isn't bad, but it is still a bolter.

I personally only use the sternguard since I can have 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad. Don't like bolters. I have other weapons in the army that can kill MC and infantry. Sternguard can get close to the enemy, can have 2 meltas and a number of combis. They aren't cheap, but a small squad can cost 150 with 2 meltas and 3 combi weapons. Add in a drop pod, and you have a very effective meltacide unit that must be dealt with even after its done its mission. Or you can just use all combi, and have a unit that can often be ignored after it kills its one tank.

Big squads are different, but they cost so much, the attract the level of fire power that their normal SM save and toughness can't withstand. And once their combis are used, their special ammo isn't exactly all that potent (comparing to unit cost of course)

I don't know... 2 shots wounding a C'Tan equivolent on 2's for each member...that's just rude.

Application is key. But knowing your meta is more important to them.

If I didn't restrain myself in taking pod units, I'd be all over them.

C'Tan aren't exactly all that great, nearly all the high T MCs aren't that good in fact.

It's not to say T8 is their only deal.
T5 -10 is what they deal with...that's pretty impressive for a bolter.

If they 'have' to they can threaten the lower toughness power armor that's out of cover.
If it's GEQ in cover, they can deal with that.

Big squads are different, but they cost so much, the attract the level of fire power that their normal SM save and toughness can't withstand. And once their combis are used, their special ammo isn't exactly all that potent (comparing to unit cost of course)

Basically, they are flexible...and with flexibility like that you have to have some balances to it.
Cost is the direct counter to flexibility, much like the Typhoon and Death Stars in general.

As for the attracting fire, that can be a good thing...and it's not like a large squad is limited to shooting one enemy unit.
They can deal with multiple units...and not just 2, the most I've seen is 4.
Flamers hitting the tank AND the bubble wrap is a wonderful thing.

Notabot
about special ammo: it's still a bolter true but ignoring cover is huge... Instantly doubling it's effectiveness vs light infantry. Having ap 3 shells around makes then lethal to other marines as well. Poisoned shells bring down big monsters pretty fast since they usually rely on high toughness. Even the mighty blood thirster is just a marine with 4 wounds when these guys shoot him. Also being able to give all of them a combi weapon is a big deal too. If they're meltas it's a unit that can blast anything if properly positioned. I think special ammo is just really really strong.
AF

i've been using a unit of sternguard since i've started playing 40k (which albiet isn't a year yet, but i've made lots of changes to my lst) i started using them as a squad of 5, now i use 3 squads of them w/ 2 squads of 6 in razorbacks an 1 of 8 in a rhino w/ kantor and a librarian. I used to run them w/ all combi's but i've come to realize that using a plasma gun and a meltagun as my squads special weapons is a tad more effective just because i don't have a one shot tank hunter i've got melta + the combi meltas in the squad

PG 63 Codex SM states; "Each boltgun-armed model in a sternguard veteran squad automatically comes with several ammunition types."

I think the confusion comes from "bolter" vs "Boltgun". Bolter refers to a type of ammo, large caliber self propelled round. "boltgun" is the slandered issue gun for a SM.

No other weapon, (with the exception of the combi, as stated on pg 63) can use the special ammo. Storm bolter, bolt pistol, Heavy bolter, ect.. can not use the ammo.

You and your local shop can use whatever rules you want, but that is the rule published by GW.

thanks for the clarification.

Isn't the whole "Special Ammunition" thing clarified in the FAQ?

currently it is not, only a clarification on hellfire rounds. Hellfire rounds are STR 1, not X. so they cant pen vehics.

nurglitch no not really. that was the first thing I checked when this discussion came up. there's no discussion about what guns can use special ammo and which cant.

Azrell wrote:I think the confusion comes from "bolter" vs "Boltgun". Bolter refers to a type of ammo, large caliber self propelled round. "boltgun" is the slandered issue gun for a SM.

No other weapon, (with the exception of the combi, as stated on pg 63) can use the special ammo. Storm bolter, bolt pistol, Heavy bolter, ect.. can not use the ammo.

Bolter and Boltgun are used pretty interchangeably.

Bolter/boltgun "ammo" is just referred to as "bolts" or "Bolter" ammo.

OK, so looking at the pics on GW's page, it looks like the Sternguard models could easily be made into a few regular bolter marines with cooler poses and more decorations, and a SGT with a power fist... I am reading all this talk about special weapons and such and this makes me think that there may be a chance to add special weapons other than the ML/Flamer marines I have in my Std. Tac. Squads...

What all can you make from a Sterguard Vet. box... I am just looking to make the 2x 10 man Tactical Squads I have more unique. I started with AOBR x2 and haven't added a Tactical Squad #3 yet...

I haven't got a lot of time for modeling and conversions, I barely have time for painting... so I am thinking this will do as far as dressing up my Tac Squads, and I'd like one of my SGT's to have the power fist thing, as the ones the Termies have seem to do well... I'm not UBER competitive, just in it for fun with the Wifey as she hasn't taken to RC Airplanes yet...LOL She does seem to be liking 40K though...

As far as spending the $$$, I realize that it's about the same $ for 5 Sternguard as it is for 10 Tactical Marines, but I like the models, and any money spent on 40K is extra when you're in my position... so the $$$ isn't the main issue... I just want my Tacticals to not be so AOBR...

Thanks again to all of you who make DAKKADAKKA so great... this site is really helping us figure out what's what, especially with the ORKS...

Roll those 6's,
Isaiah and Val

I have a little experience with Sternguard, particularly in Kill Team. The Kill Team I run at the moment consists of 7 Sternguard Veterans, 2 of which are armed with Heavy Bolters, and another 3 have Combi-Meltas. The Heavy Bolters are usually given Relentless and Slow and Purposeful respectively, and a Combi-Melta is given Feel No Pain. The HBs are potent Weapons in any Points Range or Situation, but their uses are accentuated in Kill Team. Not only, with Relentless and SAP, can they Move and Fire, but they can also Split Fire, potentially targeting up to 6 Targets per turn. However, they're also useful against some Light Vehicles, the likes of which we see often in Kill Team. For example, I've peppered and downed Sentinels before, with only 1 Turn of Firing. The Combi-meltas are also useful for this, but of course - at the end of the day - I still have 5 Boltguns with SIA, which are fantastic at Denying Cover, Shredding Guard, Tackling Marines, Ripping Orks; ultimately, I enjoy Sternguard in Kill Teams because, although I'm limited to my choice of Miniatures, I don't have to be so limited as to what I can do with them, and that - for me - is win.

Sanctjud wrote:I like how he calls it a 'Super trick' too.

Protip: Cheating, gets 'em every time , just kidding.

Well, I wish someone would have called me out while I played.

Regardless, add 2 vanilla sternguard to total 10 and you STILL have 2 super killy squads in their face.
Since I have yet to see anyone do this other than myself, it is a trick in my book. Since not a single person in the thread has thought to do it, it seems to be a decent trick here as well.

The main thing to remember is that in a general sense, you are paying extra points for the special ammo, and short of a very specific purpose, combi weapons are the only sensible upgrade.

I'm going to start using FRFSRF with lascannon heavy weapon teams, because AF says I can!

i've used sternguard both as 10 man infantry/MC hunters and currently as 5 man melta-tank hunters.

against stuff like green tide, that hellfire barrage will decimate a 30 man mob of orks. The problem is, is that when dealing with infantry heavy armies, they are 1 unit alone in the midst of an army. More so, most people mech these days, bringing down the infantry killer part vastly.

Then there is the 5 man melta team. They are a nightmare for land raider spammers, and when they get their job done, they are still a threat because they are toting around two meltaguns, near the enemy's other tanks.

If they do not draw fire because the guy wants vengeance for his land raider going boom turn 1, then he will kill them due to them being a threat. Good unit in this role.

Sternguard have alot of uses, depends completely on what one is fighting, though.

I've thought about making another ten man squad with no upgrades. All rounds have their use and if you use them correctly with the right ammo for the given target you'll find yourself not regretting leaving the upgrades in the chapter armory.

How I would prioritize ammo use.
enemy has 4+ save in open the - Kraken
Orks or nids or similar light infantry through cover - Dragonfire
Cover save and a 3+ or better save - Hellfire
enemy has 2+ save - Hellfire
High toughness - Hellfire
Close combat unit too close and has a 3+ save - Vengence

Those are my first denominators of what rounds I use. A lot of the time I never fire my Sternguard combi weapons unless it makes a difference. My current layout has one heavy flamer, 2 combi plas and 2 combi melta. Makes an excellent all rounder unit. Either way you can't go wrong with keeping them as cheap as possible. 250 points and if you play Crimson Fists then hey they are a scoring unit...... SCORE

Against 4+ in cover Dragonfire is good as well, as going to ground won't help protect them.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:nurglitch no not really. that was the first thing I checked when this discussion came up. there's no discussion about what guns can use special ammo and which cant.

why on earth would they even bring it up in the FAQ? It says BOLTGUN. Should I start playing my Dire Avengers with special ammo as well just because nothing says that they cant use special ammo? Or better yet, maybe they fire vortex grenades that doesnt scatter?

Dracos wrote:Its close enough to making sense. He is asking about taking sternguard without any special or heavy weapons.

I think most people field sternguard without special or heavy weapons, choosing to go only with combi-weapons. With combi-weapons you still keep you special ammo, which is why you take sternguard in the first place.

Sternguard are great with just combi-meltas and/or combiflamers.

Bahh! I never use combi weapons.