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What do you as SM players think about Sternguard with-out special and heavy weapons? They are cheap weapons but you lose the advantage you there special ammo.?

Mark wrote:What do you as SM players think about Sternguard with-out special and heavy weapons? They are cheap weapons but you lose the advantage you there special ammo.?

That dosnt make sence

I think this is what you mean


If you dont use combi , special or heavy weapons you still the cool and funky specialist ammo for there normal bolters !!!

Its close enough to making sense. He is asking about taking sternguard without any special or heavy weapons.

I think most people field sternguard without special or heavy weapons, choosing to go only with combi-weapons. With combi-weapons you still keep you special ammo, which is why you take sternguard in the first place.

Sternguard are great with just combi-meltas and/or combiflamers.

Dracos wrote:Its close enough to making sense. He is asking about taking sternguard without any special or heavy weapons.

I think most people field sternguard without special or heavy weapons, choosing to go only with combi-weapons. With combi-weapons you still keep you special ammo, which is why you take sternguard in the first place.

Sternguard are great with just combi-meltas and/or combiflamers.

Also after a quick rules check from our local GW manager the special ammo also applies to storm bolters too !! it says BOLTER weapons inducing combi's and a storm bolter is a BOLTER weapon too !!!!

2 shots 24" and assault if you want to nice for (i think ) 5pts

Nope, each special ammo type has its own profile. So having a stormbolter (first off you'll find common rulings here is that they can't use the special ammo anyways) does nothing, as using the special ammo has its own profiles therefore making the range and assault 2 useless.

Also after a quick rules check from our local GW manager the special ammo also applies to storm bolters too !! it says BOLTER weapons inducing combi's and a storm bolter is a BOLTER weapon too !!!!

2 shots 24" and assault if you want to nice for (i think ) 5pts

Irdiumstern wrote:
Also after a quick rules check from our local GW manager the special ammo also applies to storm bolters too !! it says BOLTER weapons inducing combi's and a storm bolter is a BOLTER weapon too !!!!

2 shots 24" and assault if you want to nice for (i think ) 5pts

Local GW Managers aren't really a source of rules info, the consensus over in YMCD is that storm bolters do not get special ammunition as far as I know.

I run them "as is" without any of the extra weapons or wargear, just 5-10 sternguard and make use of their extra CC and shooting ability.

If I needed anything else then I'd entrust that to a cheaper and somewhat expendable squad so that I don't need to keep my more expensive Sternguard stationary to use heavy weapons for example.

The only exception I would say is giving a power weapon to the sergeant, and thats only if I was really intending to get them stuck into combat and wanted the extra cc power.

i dont use them with any extra weapons. i usually use them as an all purpose squad to deal with any situation that comes up. i just use the bolters

Okay, I don't have a source on hand, I will try to find it, and put this up as a stopgap.

Sternguard, Bolters, and Special Ammo.

Bolters DO count as bolters. They CAN use Special Ammo.

Bolt Pistols do NOT count as bolters, and may NOT use Special Ammo.

Storm Bolters do NOT count as bolters, and may NOT use Special Ammo.

Combi-weapons DO count as bolters, and MAY use Special Ammo.

Hurricane bolters DO count as bolters, but can't use Special Ammo anyway.


And, on a personal note, I would never think of putting a special or heavy weapon in a Sternguard squad. Combi-weapons only. Although a Librarian with Gate of Infinity is nice...

Except you don't do it with template/blast weapons that are either fast or long reaching...so, that's a 'never' in my book for the Sternguard/GoI combo.

Plasma Cannons galore in my area (Oblits, Executioners, effectively vindis' and the like).

But seconding Jimsolo's post and seconding that just because they work for GW at a local store doesn't mean they are right.

Now if it's a house rule, then sure.

I like the idea of sternguard as the marines that are always useful.

Be it killing a Fex with 2+ poison bullets or killing Orks with dragongout, MEQS with vengeance rounds or shooting back at Tau with Kraken rounds... I have never seen these guys without a target. Throw in Combi-Meltas and they can now shoot up vehicles...

6 Sternguard: 4 Combi-Meltas, 2 Combi-Flamers... 180 points...

Mark
just use combi weapons. that way you can get the both of best options. giving them a special weapon is imo a waste.
AF

Alas, i take jim's side with this.
It states bolter, which in effect, is only a bolter.
The combi-bolter states its still a bolter though, so gets by on it.
Storms and pistols miss out though.



As for sterns - Great units, but i dont see why people throw combi-melta on them, then drop them in on a suicide run.
Im sure a melta dread or iron clad lasts longer, is more points effective, and can get the job done.

I rather keep them as a plain 10 man unit for the special ammo.
Makes them a nice all round unit for taking down whatever comes thier way.

it wasnt covered in the FAQ. my opinion bolters combi bolters and storm bolters yes bolt pistols no.

@AF:
Storm bolters are different weapons completely, but as long as the people in your area house rule it or you tell your opponent that is how you run it, then everything is fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why does something have to be covered in the FAQ, it's perfectly clear to some and wierdly unclear for others. When RAW is concerned, the storm bolter loses.

Furthermore, the rule states that the special ammo "replaces the profile with the ammo profile" which includes Rapid Fire. So at best I could see a case for allowing it with storm bolters, but they become equal to bolters if you use special ammo (thus defeating the point of using them).

It is sad, since I'd love to have assault 2 24" range special ammo, but then why would storm bolters be so cheap for them?

Unadorned sternguard are my current favorite unit. Don't underestimate the extra attack in close combat. In a recent game against 'Nids, my buddy's 4 ravenors charged my 5 sternguard and inflicted no wounds and I killed them by breaking them and catching them in a sweeping advance. Pure win.

Kolath
well I just based it on grammar. anything that says bolter in it would be in. They should have listed exactly what weapons have special ammunition. Like with vulkan, they gave a detailed list. Alot of players who arent familiar with the book believe that vulkan twin links flame storm cannons. he does not. there's a list of things he twin links and flame storm cannons arent on it. It seems to me that they would have specifically mentioned bolt pistols if they were effected, since they are not merely a different kind of bolter, but an entirely different weapon. Can stern guard even take a storm bolter though?

I havent run stern guard yet but I think I'm going to. the ability to put a combi weapon on every single guy is just too good to pass up. yeah the extra attack is good too. Stern guard are what tacticals ought to be: a unit that is truly capable of handing any enemy.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:They should have listed exactly what weapons have special ammunition.

Totally agree! And yes, sternguard can all take storm-bolters. I think it is maybe 5 points? Combi-weapons are way better. Though I would recommend not giving every guy a combi-weapon. If only some have a combi, then you have more flexibility in wound allocation. All in all, though, I love sternguard.

They did list, all bolters. I don't understand the confusion.

According to official canon Stormbolters are an advanced form of combi-bolter. this plus the inclusion in the Sternguard entry of stormbolters with combi-weapons at hte same price would lead one to believe that stormbolters Could use the special issue ammo, with all the restrictions of said ammo.
Also, given a Sternguard unit with 2 combi flamers and 7storm bolters all in range before a charge..... could be... nasty.

Fluff is not rules. The rules describe how a storm bolter resembles two bolters attached side by side. That does not make it a boltgun. The rules specifically state "each boltgun-armed model". The only reason combi-weapons can use the special ammo is because the rules state they ARE bolters which have been modified.

Sorry, but storm bolters CAN'T use the special ammo.

Not only can they not use it, but the profile of special ammo replaces the normal profile of the weapon (a boltgun or combi-). This means even if they COULD (which they can't) they would still be using the same rules AS IF THEY HAD A BOLTGUN.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you give them storm bolters they can't use special ammo. That means you have a 150 point unit of power armor marines with stormbolters when you could have the same number of terminators with storm bolters AND (4x powerfist + 1x powersword) for 50 points more.

Giving sternguard stormbolters is the dumbest idea ever.

Kolath
oh I didnt realize that. but yeah I agree the combi bolter is still better. special ammo is good but it's not *that* good.

Hey there,
Loving the input about everything, anything you could imagine just about, it's on Dakka...
I am curious, I'd like to use sternguard models as nicer figs in my tactical squads..... would that be OK.????

Thanks to all,
Isaiah

I use my sternguard as sergeants when im not fielding them. Don't think its a big deal.

If you want to shell out all the extra money, go right ahead.

As for Sternguard, plasma weapons are ALWAYS better. There is absolutely no army in the game where a plasma weapon wouldn't be useful. If you're sending them out on a suicide run to take out some high cost units, then take the combis, but otherwise I'd stick with plasma all the way. You can combat squad those sternies so half have two cannons and stay behind while the other five with combis go out hunting in a razorback Imo that's the best way to use sternguard.

errrr.... ap 4 str 5 ignores cover is way better than str 7 ap 2 for killing guard in cover.

Axels
I'd be ok with it. As long as you're clear about what stuff is and dont change it up every week there shouldnt be a problem.

Dracos
yeah I think you're right. the special ammo section does say it replaces the weapon's normal profile. So if you use special ammunition on a storm bolter say then you only get 1 shot. making a bolt pistol rapid fire 24" seems clearly against rules as intended so they'd probably be out too. That leaves combi bolters and bolters.
AF

I very much like the idea of putting two heavy weapons in a squad, combat-squaddng to leave those two guys behind with three other dudes, then sending the other five off in a combat-squad and giving them combi-meltas/combi-flamers or a combination of both. I'd even take a combi-plasma if there was a cool model!

Exactly. See, he gets it.

Under normal circumstances, I take them with combi weapons only.

Super trick:

8 Sternguard in a pod with 2 x melta nad 6 x combi melta
Combat squad when you hit into 1 x melta 3 x combi melta squads. 2 dead tanks. Yum.

Just works wonderfully.