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Well, call it the luck of the newley painted mini... but there first time i used my bikes, not one, but TWO of them were killed by A FREAKIN BOLT PISTOL. the next one proceeded to kill none, then was killed by 10 berzerkers. needless to say... i hated my bikers since them, and never included them since.

I see bike potential as very solid - is there another place you can get 2 meltaguns in the codex? Throw in the benefit of the MM attack bike, throw in the Khan's outflank..

BUT

I started with tacticals and now have 3 full squads of tacticals + rhinos and they all painted..

Just cannot bring myself to buy all those new models to 'start again'

yeah.

I'd go...
Pedro kantor
captain
4 full tactical squads with lascannon and meltaguns.
2 bike squads [troops]
3 sterns
3 more bike squads
3 vindicators.

you've got massive speed, massive firepower and scoring elites.

Ive got to say on the other hand that bikes are a kind of fragile army. They're toughness 5 but you don't get very many of them and they die just as fast as normal, less expensive marines to alot of the same guns (plasma for instance). You need to have good tactical sense to pull this army off. Use your superior mobility to pick your battles, concentrate large portions of your army against small portions of his, stay out of losing assaults, etc etc. If you treat them like toughness 5 space marines and don't use their mobility to good tactical effect you're really in for an uphill fight.
AF

they make perfect tactics:

1. turboboost to your enemy. auto 4+ cover.
2. move in 12", shoot then assault.
3. if your enemy is caught but not dead, you continue another combat. that squad is out of it for a turn, but can't be shot.
4. you zoom up behind tanks, and use meltaguns and multimeltas to pick off key tanks like LR and Lemans, then you shove them in a hideyhole combat [such as gretchin.]

there are lots of little tactics that these guys can pull of better then assault marines, even if they're 60 points more expensive:

10 AM: 240 pt, 1 powersword, 1 plasma pistol, 2 flamers.
8 Bikes and 1A-bike = 300 pt, 2 meltaguns, 1 multimelta and 9 TL bolters, as well as relentless. You then get a further T5.

the T5 is the bonus, it's not a basis for the model. [he'd be just as good without it.]

Arbitor Ian has an awesome White Scars army:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Category:White_Scars_Army_Profile

lowmanjason wrote:i think the whole idea of motercycles in combat is lame. about the only time it "makes sense" is with Orks and only because they realy don't have to make sense. really, who is going to fight in hand to hand CC from a motercycle and who can realisticly shoot accuratly while riding one. i know the argument of cool game universe vs reality... but i thinks its enough to turn alot of poeople off of bikes. i know it does foe me

Motorcycles were used in both WW1 and 2. The Germans in WW2 had side cars with machine guns... can we say attack bike? From what I understand, every panzer corp had a motorcycles. Most of the allies used them too, but not as much direct combat as the Germans did.

From what I've heard many countries still field motorcycles, their ability to navigate difficult roads and even open terrain with no roads is very handy.

Then there is the somewhat infamous bicycle infantry... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_infantry

Now fighting melee on bike does sound a bit off, but keep in mind their is nothing stopping a guy driving into a melee, and then dismounting and attacking someone. Or you could just think of them driving by and having a swipe at the slow guy on foot (hence the low number of attacks) and circling around for more. Remember WH40k is a dynamic game played with static models.

Shooting off the back of a motorcycle isn't THAT much harder than shooting off the back of a horse I imagine (though that feat is rather hard, people have been doing it for thousands of years) So I see no problem with the idea of 40k bikes. The motorcycle and the doctrines surrounding them are completely sound even in the modern battlefield, there is no reason (especially considering the lack of advancement) why a proven war machine would be abandoned.

lowmanjason wrote:i think the whole idea of motercycles in combat is lame. about the only time it "makes sense" is with Orks and only because they realy don't have to make sense. really, who is going to fight in hand to hand CC from a motercycle and who can realisticly shoot accuratly while riding one. i know the argument of cool game universe vs reality... but i thinks its enough to turn alot of poeople off of bikes. i know it does foe me

You're the kind of person who will say a cavalry charge is cool.

Seriously - Give a biker a really long spear, and he's a knight.

christ, some people have no imagination.

Also, All Vektra Mk2 bikes [the ones marines drive] have targetting arrays. really, they should shoot at BS5.

Aside, The bikes spray out enough bullets [they count as 12" assault 2 guns, which are also twinlinked.] that it really doesn't matter. if your opponent is in range, you will hit something.

As for the whole not being able to fight from a motorcycle, how? I mean, you're level with your opponent, and the fact that you're chargine headon into him in METAL BAWKSES [not quite] means that he's not going to be able to brace and get out his CCW.

if anything, fighting from bikeback is more strenuous, but less strenuous then such things as cavalry, and it's probably easier then being a terminator.

Also, you can easily compare White scars to mongolians, hell their leaders are khans. And mongolian archers were able to shoot while a horse was in full stride, and not only that, face behind them and have the horse guide itself.

Captain Solon wrote:

lowmanjason wrote:i think the whole idea of motercycles in combat is lame. about the only time it "makes sense" is with Orks and only because they realy don't have to make sense. really, who is going to fight in hand to hand CC from a motercycle and who can realisticly shoot accuratly while riding one. i know the argument of cool game universe vs reality... but i thinks its enough to turn alot of poeople off of bikes. i know it does foe me

You're the kind of person who will say a cavalry charge is cool.

Seriously - Give a biker a really long spear, and he's a knight.

christ, some people have no imagination.

Also, All Vektra Mk2 bikes [the ones marines drive] have targetting arrays. really, they should shoot at BS5.

Aside, The bikes spray out enough bullets [they count as 12" assault 2 guns, which are also twinlinked.] that it really doesn't matter. if your opponent is in range, you will hit something.

As for the whole not being able to fight from a motorcycle, how? I mean, you're level with your opponent, and the fact that you're chargine headon into him in METAL BAWKSES [not quite] means that he's not going to be able to brace and get out his CCW.

if anything, fighting from bikeback is more strenuous, but less strenuous then such things as cavalry, and it's probably easier then being a terminator.

Also, you can easily compare White scars to mongolians, hell their leaders are khans. And mongolian archers were able to shoot while a horse was in full stride, and not only that, face behind them and have the horse guide itself.

How logical.

I think we can safely assume you've never, ever ridden a motorcycle, let alone over rough terrain.

I can safely assume you've never ridden a horse, let alone through bog.

and, in all senses made, bikes should never go over rough terrain. in game, entering rough terrain should equal death.

Even more so, in the far off grimdark of 40k, it'd be much easier. also, you're considering this from a modern bike [built for speed.] or maybe a chopper, [built to be annoying, save for it's driver.] we're talking about millitary bikes, better yet, millitary bikes made through at least 10,000 years experience, not some little suzuki.

These bikes are probably about as flimsy as a humvee. and probably about as maneuverable as one too.

you're really not assuming this in the right mindscape.

also, I respect your avatar photo. good book

Actually I think it was a terrible book (my brother lent it to me, and I didn't finish it) I just liked the title and cover.

My point is, that guns mounted on a moving motorcycle (of any type) can't shoot straight even on a paved road, let alone on rough terrain (and I don't mean warhammer-defined terrain, like forests or building sites, I mean anything which is not paved or very smooth firm ground).

Besides which it's bloody impractical to aim guns fixed straight forward on what looks to be an immensely heavy bike. This is why your 'point' about horse archery gets my goat. The reasons horse archery worked well for the parthians, mongols et al were that a skilled horse archer can turn around and fire anywhere through about 270 degrees. And a trained warhorse will keep going without hand control, and can be steered with the knees. A motorcycle, you have to have at least one hand on the bars at all times - if the surface is at all uneven, you need two hands, because a powerful engine and fast-spinning wheels needs a fair lot of strength to control. So, yeah, firing fixed weapons on a motorcycle would make it impossible to hit a damn thing, even if you stayed stationary - in which case you'd better hope the target is right in front of you, stationary, and at the same elevation! Shooting small arms from the back of a moving motorcycle is also impossible if you want to hit what you aim at.

Close combat is a similar thing - you have at least one hand off the bars, so you don't have as much control. You could hit someone you were driving past, but a sufficiently solid impact would make you either lose your grip on your weapon, and/or spill you over. This would be especially bad with bladed weapons that would stick in what you hit.

Long story short: riding motorcycles to get your infantry where you want to fight is actually a decent idea (it's inefficient in today's wars, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the idea). Actually fighting on a motorcycle is pretty stupid. Someone mentioned German motorcycles with sidecars. Those would've been platforms for machine guns, the nazis didn't career around the landscape with mp40s taped to the handlebars.

Sorry, bit of a rant. Obviously it's not the silliest thing in warhammer, I just hate to see people defending motorbike firefights as a real concept.

Regarding the actual tactics question, I think all bike armies might be a bit tactically boring to play - you don't get many squads per army, and since the only really viable way to play bike squads is get them in people's faces and fire melta/plasma, tactics are more a matter of fine-tuning a particular plan than coming up with different strategies and combinations.

Lol solon.... you claimed to have both ridden a motor cycle and horse right?

How can you even compare the 2?

Motor cycle are WAY HARDER to balance

your probably right about the horse archers.

Now, as for the guns not shooting straight:
They don't need to. they basically just throw bullets out, not for want of who they hit.

if the miss, EH. however: they should be penalised, maybe -1 to BS to shoot.

As for motorbike firefighting:
It's good. but, when you think about it in a modern, WW2 context, it works only because you'd be fireing to pin your enemy.

As for 'taking a hand off the wheel' they don't need to. [except for special weapons, which is unbelieveable anyway.] They have triggers oposite the breaks [I'd assume something like that.] so that they wouldn't have to actually aim, or an auto-fire function.

Great, you've got a photo of a biker with two sub machineguns attached to his windshield.

Just clarifying:

They are an acceptable concept, but real bikes would be way to flimsy to charge into combat.

However, I can definatly see it as they drive in, stop for a bit and take shots then.

I'm looking to get a bike squadron. I'll use them to outflank the enemy

it is actually really dangerous to simply outflank. thats 300 points lost if they kill them.

You've got to position them so that they're making the most out of their rules.

You stay up to the edge of deployment zone, Turbozoom in, gaining a 4+ cover save against those pesky plasmacannon and executioner cannons.


Also: I like your signature.

Well, for the SM Bikes...they are not exactly...'bike' bikes. Aren't they pretty stables platforms (esp. with those tires)? So it wouldn't be too hard for a Super Human in Super Armor on his Super Duper Blue Bike to show off his Super Combat Skillz in combat.

I think I have seen it somewhere that it does say they drive up and stop to whack on someone before.

@BlackWaves:
The only way you get outflanking bikers is to go for Scout Bikers or Khan for normal Bikers.
I'm 'meh' over the issue of Khan.

I don't think he is an 'improvement' to the list. It's like a horizontal transition between playstyles with the list. It's no stronger or weaker. (Khan IMO promotes a more Death Star-y way of playing.)

I'm not a fan of outflanking personally. Reserves is free and covers alot more ground than Outflanking. It's the quality of ground you are able to cover with Outflanking that makes it worth consideration.

sancts pretty much summed it up - Khan, is extreemly overpriced for his worth.

Captain Solon wrote:they make perfect tactics:

1. turboboost to your enemy. auto 4+ cover.

3+ cover. Do not boost AT your enemy. It's a good way to get yourself assaulted quick, fast, and in a hurry.

3. if your enemy is caught but not dead, you continue another combat. that squad is out of it for a turn, but can't be shot.

Against anything with a respectable armor save, it's more like "out of it for two or three turns". Seriously. Against anything with apowerfist, you're dirtnapping in two.

4. you zoom up behind tanks, and use meltaguns and multimeltas to pick off key tanks like LR and Lemans, then you shove them in a hideyhole combat [such as gretchin.]

You have to get past the bubble wrap to hit the rear of these tanks, then weather a turn of fire before you can "shove them in a hideyhole combat." You can't shoot a Russ, then assault the squad standing near it in the same turn.

there are lots of little tactics that these guys can pull of better then assault marines, even if they're 60 points more expensive:

10 AM: 240 pt, 1 powersword, 1 plasma pistol, 2 flamers.
8 Bikes and 1A-bike = 300 pt, 2 meltaguns, 1 multimelta and 9 TL bolters, as well as relentless. You then get a further T5.

the T5 is the bonus, it's not a basis for the model. [he'd be just as good without it.]

Actually, T5 is huge for bikes, as the low model count really hurts. If they were T4 they'd be getting scythed down by bolter and lasgun fire like chumps.
There are things Assault Marines can do that bikers cannot: jump over terrain, ascend levels of a ruin, enter buildings, or Run.

notabot187 wrote:
Motorcycles were used in both WW1 and 2. The Germans in WW2 had side cars with machine guns... can we say attack bike? From what I understand, every panzer corp had a motorcycles. Most of the allies used them too, but not as much direct combat as the Germans did.

From what I've heard many countries still field motorcycles, their ability to navigate difficult roads and even open terrain with no roads is very handy.

Motorcycles make a great outrider unit for armored divisions because they can keep up at overland speeds, as well as navigate terrain that would be rough for even a Humvee. The US Marine Corps still maintains small numbers of dirt bikes for such things, typically Kawasaki KLR650s. They're mostly designed for use as courier units or route recon scouts. You sure as hell don't fire your M4 from the back of one.

40K Marine bikers are sci-fi material. We've got neural links in our armor, HUDs in helmet lenses, etc. Teh idea that you could integrate a Marine on the back of a bike with the bike's internal machine spirit for targeting those bolters on the go isn't outlandish in the 40K world.

I personally like the shape and style of the bikes, though I can see how folks might not like the "chopper-style" seating pose of the Marines piloting them. Legs forward and splayed is very Easy Rider, and less combat efficiency. But, all of the 40K races' bikes are like that, because accurately modelling any other seating pose would be a nightmare, and make the models either huge, or the pilots look very thin and weedy.

As for cost...buy any of the Ravenwing boxes to save big bucks. The Ravenwing Squadron box is now $41.25, while the standard Bike Squadron is $45, not as much of a savings as it used to be. You lose out on the metal rider torsos carrying special weapons, but anyone with an existing Marine army should have the bitz for melta and plasmaguns from their tacticals and command squads. The Ravenwing battleforce is the real steal. $90 for six bikers, an attack bike, and a landspeeder. You can trade or sell off all the Ravenwing junk for a couple bucks to bitz-order special weapons or magnets for the attack bike or speeder.

As for cost...buy any of the Ravenwing boxes to save big bucks. The Ravenwing Squadron box is now $41.25, while the standard Bike Squadron is $45, not as much of a savings as it used to be. You lose out on the metal rider torsos carrying special weapons, but anyone with an existing Marine army should have the bitz for melta and plasmaguns from their tacticals and command squads. The Ravenwing battleforce is the real steal. $90 for six bikers, an attack bike, and a landspeeder. You can trade or sell off all the Ravenwing junk for a couple bucks to bitz-order special weapons or magnets for the attack bike or speeder.

Yes, this has to be repeated.
Exact same experience. Thank you for putting it into words.

nirvana69 wrote:Well, call it the luck of the newley painted mini... but there first time i used my bikes, not one, but TWO of them were killed by A FREAKIN BOLT PISTOL. the next one proceeded to kill none, then was killed by 10 berzerkers. needless to say... i hated my bikers since them, and never included them since.

this is like saying 5 scout marines can take out a 10 man squad of terminators.

I've heard that Bike armies can win quite often, but I think the major factor in my not making a bike army is the cost....

Why is GW still selling bikes in packs of three for 45$? The juggernauts are much bigger and you get three for 35$...Same with ork bikes, and jetbikes..Everything.
Edit. Derp.

I was thinking of the price of the new DP. On the same topic, bloodcrushers are 53.75$! Almost 10 dollars more!

it's even worse for us - 3 bikers in a kit are 74 - 3 bikers sold seperatly are 54!

But they can, lol.
Just not with any consistancy or likelyhood.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I've heard that Bike armies can win quite often, but I think the major factor in my not making a bike army is the cost....

Why is GW still selling bikes in packs of three for 45$? The juggernauts are much bigger and you get three for 35$...Same with ork bikes, and jetbikes..Everything.
Edit. Derp.

I was thinking of the price of the new DP. On the same topic, bloodcrushers are 53.75$! Almost 10 dollars more!

In the US, a lone biker is $15, exactly the same cost as a single bike from the squadron box. Thing is, in the squadron box you get three full bikers, plus the three metal upper torso parts (sergeant, meltagun, plasmagun), so buying the squadron actually IS a savings over buying three individual bikers, since you essentially get six torsos instead of three.

I like bikes but i dont use mine to much. I got most of mine in that dark angel ravenwing box set which was 1 speeder / 5 bikes (i think) and an attack bike, was 80 dollars when i bought it iirc. Otherwise i just troll classifieds and pick them up for cheap

To interject on the motorcycle conversation..... I own and ride a cbr 600 and I can tell you that it's perfectly safe to take your hands off the handlebars when you're doing anything over 30 mph. I've seen people stand up on their bikes and ride them like a surfboard while doing 60 and over. All together in combat the motorcycle would be as dangerous to the rider as to the target. Shooting would be both distracting and highly inaccurate, because even if they aren't moving, you are, and probably pretty fast. In close combat if you hit someone with your motorcycle it would probably throw you; if you tried to hit them with a sword or a lance, it would probably throw you. You'd get the guy you're trying to kill, but you'd get hurt too. If you rode through difficult terrain, at least on a modern bike, you'd get thrown off. In fairness though 40k bikes have very wide tires and look a hell of alot heavier than modern bikes, so as long as you didn't ride them too fast they could be used alot like horses. Ofcourse you'd have to have a way to control them with your feet, like knights did their horses, in order to make it useful in combat...

The turbo boost rules capture this situation pretty well all together.... once you pull the throttle back you're driving and not doing anything else.
AF

Captain Solon wrote:Well, I'd love a white scars esque squad in my army. I love the idea of having 9 bikes charge into an enemy who's just taken 14 S4AP5 twinlinked shots, 4 S7AP2 shots, and 3 S5 AP4 hits.

My main army is a bike army, and I can assure that the power of what you are talking about. Its extremely effective, surprises many people with how well the bikes can shoot.

I usually run my squads in the following format, and not at full strength.
1 Sergeant with PF
2 PG / MG
2 Bikes
1 Attack bike with HB / MM
(If I took PG, I take a HB on the AB. If I take melta guns, I take a MM AB)

The advantage that this provides is the squads are fairly small in size. I will congo-line 2 of them and move them near a squad I wish to attack. At this time I will rapid fire with most of the models, giving 8 bolter shots, 4 PG shots, 3 HB shots per squad. At that point I assault with both squads. Its critical to use multiple squads to do this, as your main weapon is the PF, and doubling the attacks from 3 to 6 is very helpful.

Captain Solon wrote:
So, they've dished out 7 wounds, an equivalent of 126 points, 42% of their points value
And only taken around one.

So, I've just shown the decimation of one squad.
the main reason why this becomes irrelevant? they're useless for another turn while they continue the combat.

Again, this is why you use multiple squads to assault one unit. The captain is another good tool for this, and can give a nice edge when equipped with a relic blade.

Captain Solon wrote:
The other reason that they're so unused is their extreem priceyness.

Think about it:
8 bikers = $152.
The attack biker is a further $40.
That one little squad is probably the most expensive squad. it costs you $192! A baneblade is less!

1 word for you....ebay
I bought all my bikes on ebay either through package deals or through stores like 'horde o bits'. Buying them piecemeal allowed me to spend only $8 a bike.
When buying piecemeil, I also was able to buy combat arms, so all my bikers are holding onto the handlebars with one hand, and wielding a chainsword, bolt pistol, etc with the other hand. I also used multiple heads from tactical squads so they all have unique heads.
To make the melta guns and plasma guns, I used ones from the tac marines. When it came to the plasma guns, I cut off the top of a plasma pistol and used that to model out a plasma gun -- it worked out very with with a little green stuff.


A final note on the bike army -- it really grows in power with support. I now use some typhoon landspeers that hang back and hug my board, a AC/LC pread, and a TL/AC dread in my list. The reason for this is area of influence. You can only put so many bikes on the board before they begin to block movement, etc. The long range support can offer their firepower wherever its needed, and gives much needed long range transport cracking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Ive got to say on the other hand that bikes are a kind of fragile army. They're toughness 5 but you don't get very many of them and they die just as fast as normal, less expensive marines to alot of the same guns (plasma for instance). You need to have good tactical sense to pull this army off. Use your superior mobility to pick your battles, concentrate large portions of your army against small portions of his, stay out of losing assaults, etc etc. If you treat them like toughness 5 space marines and don't use their mobility to good tactical effect you're really in for an uphill fight.
AF

Turbo-boost helps tremendously here. I have played a space wolf player shooting 15 missles into my bike horde turbo-boosting, to only pluck off 2 of them. His expression turned to dismay after that

I'm liking how many bikers are poping up.
Even if AF can't read this, I agree with him on the 'fragility' issues of the bikers.
Just baby them and they should look better, but that T5 is balanced by the lower model count.

Even with the discount from the codex transition from 4th to 5th, I still think they are a tiny bit overpriced. Certainly they bring alot, but that's how I feel about them.

I doesn't stop me from using them .
What I like about the biker list (which is true for alot of lists) is that it 'works' more due to player ability, rather than an autopilot list.

It is not forgiving on average...(which comes back to the fragility issue) and the support elements are not very..................lets say 'unique'...as the suggestions of what to go for are always the same, at least that what I normally see in biker threads :-/

Anyway, I think I have the bestest Bikers out of all of you... mainly because they are loyalists dedicated to Grandfather Nurgle

labmouse42 wrote:I will congo-line 2 of them and move them near a squad I wish to attack. At this time I will rapid fire with most of the models, giving 8 bolter shots, 4 PG shots, 3 HB shots per squad. At that point I assault with both squads. Its critical to use multiple squads to do this, as your main weapon is the PF, and doubling the attacks from 3 to 6 is very helpful.

This is a tactic that you must learn if you are going to take multiple squads of bikes. Your own squad doesn't block LOS so use your speed to line up, blast, and then dogpile something that is open. Hopefully you will crush it and then consolidate out of retaliation range. Repeat.

I personally like to run a core of:

Vulkan
Capt on Bike with toys
Bikes x8, Melta x2, Power Fist, Attack Bike with Melta, all x3 (troops)
Total ~ 1285

Unless playing Kill Points as primary, I always combat Squad and put the Fist with the Melta x2 since they need to get close.
And remember, if you get down to one or two bikes in a squad, just turbo boost behind cover and grab an objective on the last turn.
I like the remainder of the army to be Assault Marines with Vulkan in a Land Raider, or Melta Dreads and Vindicators that can both move through difficult terrain that the bikes should be avoiding.

Khan Bike armies do very well in tournaments.

I think the bike model is fantastic myself.

And as everyone knows, Nob Bikers make for a brutal list.