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Really? I'd figure on a transport of all things keeping it mobile would be important, especially since there's no such thing as a natural crew shaken against an open-topped vehicle.

Ten points for an upgrade on a 35 point transport that will only work 1/6 of the time? No thanks.

I see your point.


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Alright, then with that in mind, I've removed the Armour Plates on the Trukk and added a Kannon to the stationary BW (after all, there's not much else to spend those 10 points on. )

So this is the final list, then, unless there are any other suggestions:

1500 points

Big Mek 115
PK, KFF, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork Body

20 Boyz 170
Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole

20 Boyz 160
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole

11 'Ard Boyz 200
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole
Trukk w/ RPJ, Reinforced Ram, Boarding Plank

15 Lootaz 225

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

Battlewagon 135
Deff Rolla, RPJ, Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Armour Plates

Battlewagon 135
Deff Rolla, RPJ, Big Shoota, Boarding Plank, Armour Plates

Battlewagon 150
Deff Rolla, 4 Big Shootaz, Kannon, Armour Plates

Lootas don't need to be in a Battlewagon. I used to run them in Wagons but now I just drop them in terrain. If you have a full unit that's 225 points and then a basic Battlewagon is 95, that's a lot of points tied up in a single unit. Put them in terrain give all the Boyz Battlewagon so you haven't got that single Trukk target, ditch the Ard Boyz and you've got another full Battlewagon

Oh, you don't need armour plates either..

Well if I'm not putting the Lootaz in a transport, I may as well split the unit into 3 units of 5 to allow them to split their fire and cut losses if one of them takes casualties. Also would average my rolls so that I wouldn't be limited to 15 shots, but also wouldn't end up with 45, thereby making them a bit more reliable, if a bit less effective even when rolling well.

On the other hand, dropping the Lootaz in terrain still doesn't guarantee them a target. I'd like to be able to move them up turn 1 behind the other Battlewagons 13" or so and place them closer mid-field, so they can provide fire support anywhere on the board. Putting them in a BW would also make it much harder to take casualties and gives them another 13 shots out of the BW itself, increasing their volume of fire, which is something Orks can never have too much of.

I'm not super worried about the Trukk - it's liable to become a target early on, but the KFF will help to keep it from getting popped and the 'Ard Boyz are much less likely to take casualties if it does.

Two units of ten are better. Units of five don't do a lot, max you'll get 15 shots without 4-5 of them hitting; not a lot. To make 10 Lootas run you need to kill 3 and 7 is the average leadership anyway, they can run off just like many many other units.

Why do you need to move Lootas up when they have 48" range? You should position them high up so they can see the field. If you move then turn 1 they cannot shoot so you've wasted a turn shooting, you put them mid field then armies can reach and the assault them. They belong at the back in high terrain with that 48" range.

Don't expect that KFF to last forever. It's 50/50 it will make the save.

What about this: Keep the 'Ard Boyz, put them in the third Wagon (with the KFF Mek), nix the Trukk, and add a unit of Grots to hold down my objective while my Boyz all rush to the front?

The alternative would be nixing the 'Ard Boyz and just taking another 20 Boyz instead. I'm gonna have to play with points to see if either of these will allow me to take some Grots.

And two units of 10 Lootaz means five more Lootaz.

I've had a lot of people tell me that 10 Lootaz is the wrong number - take 15 or 5, so either they benefit from the Mob rule or they're cheap enough to not worry about when they run away.

10 means you need to kill 3, but that's only one more than the 2 you gotta kill with 5, and 7 running away hurts a lot more than 3 running away.

I do see your point regarding the Trukk and the Lootaz' range, though.


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For example:

1491 points

Big Mek 115
PK, KFF, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork Body

20 Boyz 170
Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole

20 Boyz 160
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole

19 Boyz 154
Nob w/ PK, Bosspole

19 Grots 67
1 Runtherd

5 Lootaz 75

5 Lootaz 75

5 Lootaz 75

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

1 Deffkopta 70
TL Rokkits, 1 Buzzsaw

Battlewagon 130
Deff Rolla, RPJ, 2 Big Shootas, Boarding Plank

Battlewagon 130
Deff Rolla, RPJ, 2 Big Shootas, Boarding Plank

Battlewagon 130
Deff Rolla, RPJ, 2 Big Shootas, Boarding Plank

Added a Big Shoota to each Wagon as I had 15 points to blow, and the extra volume of fire if they don't move can't hurt.

I'd definately use the third Wagon for transporting troops no doubt. Though you seem set on 'Ard Boyz. Honestly I've used them and they don't last a great deal longer, perhaps another turn maybe.

No, 10 is fine. So is 15. 5 is wrong. Reason 5 is wrong is because Lootas work on volume of fire power, how can 5 do much damage? I tried 7 in smaller point games and they just about did damage on stuff; just. Like I said, volumes of fire power, Lootas running off is just a "in case" tactic by taking min units but they lose affectiveness. I honestly wouldn't worry about them running off and I wouldn't take them in 5 either, like I said volume of fire power.

2 units of 5 puts out the same volume of fire as 1 unit of 10, though 2 of 5 is a bit safer on average. Your numbers are a bit skewed. Lemme break it down statistically for you.

The possible results break down like this:

10d3
10
20
30

5d3 + 5d3
10
15
20
20
25
30

Basically, with 10d3, there's a 33% change of getting 20 shots, but a 33% chance of getting 30 and a 33% chance of getting 10.

With 5d3+5d3, there's still a 33% chance of 20 shots, but only a 17% chance of 30 or 10, and 17% chance of 15 or 25.

With 10d3, you get a higher chance of a high volume of fire, but an equal chance of a low volume of fire. 5d3+5d3 cuts the risk a bit at the expense of cutting the jackpot, and averages the numbers, making it statistically a safer bet, thus making Lootaz a more reliable choice.

That's why it's just as easy to turn two units of 5 on what you'd normally be firing one unit of 10 at, but it's also a bit safer.

Same volume of fire, better averages.

So I have to respectfully disagree regarding Lootaz, I would rather take three units of 5 - of course, if that doesn't work out in practice, I can always switch that to a unit of 10 and a unit of 5, or make some changes and make it two units of 10.

I could put together a similar table regarding the statistic likelihood of 10 Lootaz being run off the board versus 5, and the safer bet that 5 represents, but I don't want to be too argumentative - just humor me on the Lootaz.

Besides that, though, what do we think of the addition of Grots?

Oh, and regarding 'Ard Boyz, that was mostly to compensate for the Trukk's crappy carry capacity, so using a third Battlewagon allows more regular Boyz, which is what I'd prefer. Squishier, possibly, but more attacks in close combat is always a plus. The risk is outweighed by the reward.

I have no complaints with this list. I wish I could figure something better to spend those 15 points on but I'm stumped.

Claypool wrote:I have no complaints with this list. I wish I could figure something better to spend those 15 points on but I'm stumped.

That's how I felt too. One more Grot meant one more Runtherd, not exactly worth it there, considered 'eavy armor for the Boyz Nobz again, but as we discussed earlier, it is kind of useless, and the Mek's got all the upgrades he can handle.

One more Big Shoota for each Wagon was the best bet, because that could turn into a valuable asset if they ever do stand still, and if nothing else it could absorb a second Weapon Destroyed result (or, technically, a second Immobilized result).

List looks good. Now go krump some skulls with it.

Well the thing with 5 Lootas is they probably won't destroy the target so you'll fire the other unit at it to do the job as well. The only benefit is less of a unit running away, but that's it and I don't see that as much as a massive problem. It's just in case like I said and my Lootas have ran away from shooting 0 times because they are at the back of the board.

Best thing to do is try the unit sizes and see how you go but if taking 10 you should really take 2 units.

That's what it's going to come down to, is me playing this both ways and seeing which works best.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. I'm feeling very good about this list now.

Cool. It's looking pretty good. Only thing I'm not keen on is the Lootas and Grots but that's just me. Rest actually looks like my own Ork list lol.


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Oh, stop by www.imperiusdominatus.com my own blog which has Ork tactica on amongst other stuff; leave some comments too! Sorry, shameless plug there

2 units of 5 lootas really doesn't "cheat" the averages. They just fail to do much either way and run at the first sign of hostility coming their way. It only takes 2 wounds to force a morale check and look there goes 50% of your loota firepower (20% dead + 30% fleeing). If they take 3 units they'll never rally either. Its really just giving up more kill points

But with ten, it only takes 3 wounds to force morale. And then you lose even more of your points. At least with 15, you get a noticeable increase in the number of wounds you have to take.

...but Lootas work in volumes of fire power! 5 won't do anything. And you're just saying in case they fail morale, they might not, they have average 2D6 roll.

mercer wrote:...but Lootas work in volumes of fire power! 5 won't do anything. And you're just saying in case they fail morale, they might not, they have average 2D6 roll.

You're right mercer, 5 Lootas won't destroy a tank every turn. However, they will reliably shake them and that's all you really need. For 75pts you get a distraction unit, for actual tank killing, he has his deffkoptas. My point is that 10 Lootas, while increasing firepower, offer little extra survivability over 5 Lootas.

Not really, shaking is cool I don't disagree but they cannot hit which is the problem. It's the fire power over 5 Lootas, in fact take 11 you'd be fearless then and 4 need to die before taking leadership.

But the bottom line is that I do have 10 Lootaz, just split.

As for cheating the averages, I never used such a term. What 5d3+5d3 does that 10d3 does not is reduce the outliers. The graph becomes a bell curve instead of a linear chart. And a bell curve, like I said, cuts the risk while also cutting the jackpot.

I tend to lean towards the sure thing, and 5+5 is exactly that.

And as for the number of wounds needed to take them out of the battle, it's not much of an issue anyway - mercer, you said yourself they'll rarely if ever come under fire at the far side of the map, and I tend to agree - my BW and Deffkoptaz will provide much juicier targets than my Lootaz will.

And the Deffkoptaz are my tank killers, but I can always point all three of my Loota mobs at a single tank if they fail to get the same result as one unit of 15 pointed at a single tank.

Plus, splitting fire allows for versatility. If the first 5 manage to do the job, I can turn the remaining 10 elsewhere instead of wasting X number of rolls after the fact on the same target.

For example, if the first 5 manage to wreck a transport, I can then fire with the second 5 at the disembarked troops, and then if that does the job I can fire at a second transport with the last 5. Or any combination of the above given the situation.

In any case, the Loota issue has been decided, there's little point in arguing it now.

I was gonna say, probably best leave the Loota debate for another forum lol

And I'll be sure to stop by your blog, Mercer! I can always use tips on Ork tactica.

Many thanks S.H. You need any more advice feel free to drop me a PM

Can do, boss.

I like your last couple of lists. Just run it and see how you like it. Small squads of Lootas are not bad, I have run 2 squads of 7 a few times, they will be ignored for the most part since your opponent is seeing a wall of Deffrollas and are reacting to those. - you will just miss the glory of (possibly) shredding something with 45 shots of fury! It is complete overkill when it happens, but seems very Orky to me. Dividing your fire could work out very well.

I have tried a bunch of different configs with 3 BW, and my truck always come in handy. (I usually hide mine behind a ruin and wait to see what develops.) Also - try the burna wagon sometime. It doesn't always work - but it is a hoot when your opponent deep-strikes too close and you can zoom up 7" and fry them.