Israel demolishes historic Jerusalem cemetery

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**ShumaGorath**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Yeah. Thats pretty douchy. Illegal too. Why do we give them tanks again?

Don't the Israelis make their own tanks? The Merkava. We may be financing those though.

It's got chains protecting the bullet trap and everything! I think we do provide them with other forms of support vehicles though. "Tanks" was really more of a catcheall "military hardware" in that sentence of mine.

**avantgarde**

Like F-35s, which we are giving them money to buy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE67E07220100815

**Andrew1975**

The Museum of Tolerance, affiliated with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, says that the site of the proposed development has not been part of the cemetery for almost 50 years, and cites as justification for the development's location a 1964 declaration by "the highest Muslim religious authorities" that the "entire area" was "an abandoned, ancient cemetery where public facilities may be built."

You can take that with a grain of salt I guess, I mean what is this "highest Muslim authority" can't they be a little more specific? It looked like a cemetery to me.

It's a tolerance museum and the Muslims already said it could be used back in 1964. I don't see a real problem here. If Israel was building a Synagogue over it that would be one thing, maybe. It's not even like it's a Synagogue veiled as a tolerance center (Cordoba House). It also seams hypocritical since Muslims have a long tradition of building Mosques over other religions holy sites without permission anyway.

I think it might be a stupid move to build a tolerance center in an area where (no matter what your intentions were) it's having the opposite effect. But it looks like it would not matter what kind of building was going to be erected there. The fact that it's a tolerance center just makes the situation ironic.

The question I pose is do you think this is some kind of Israeli statement about the Cordoba center in NYC. I mean it just seams odd that they have had permission to build on it since 1964 and choose this moment to start construction? And if they really do have permission why are they doing it like thieves in the night, is it too hot during the day?

Are they trying to pull western heart strings? I mean did you see that reporter? Blond hair? They must think that the world would not sympathies if she was classically Arab looking and or wearing a burka. Nice touch actually.

**Anshal**

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The lack of respect displayed in this thread is disgusting.
Congratulations, moderators.

+1
For once its nice to see people what a moral spine. And besides from the normal BS from the mods I except this tread to boil away into the normal goblin cave pile such treads evolve into.

**Frazzled**

Anshal wrote:
Arctik_Firangi wrote:The lack of respect displayed in this thread is disgusting.
Congratulations, moderators.

+1
For once its nice to see people what a moral spine. And besides from the normal BS from the mods I except this tread to boil away into the normal goblin cave pile such treads evolve into.

What moral spine? You're jabbering on a website that is fundamentally about toy soldiers. You're pretty much doing less than nothing.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
Anshal wrote:
Arctik_Firangi wrote:The lack of respect displayed in this thread is disgusting.
Congratulations, moderators.

+1
For once its nice to see people what a moral spine. And besides from the normal BS from the mods I except this tread to boil away into the normal goblin cave pile such treads evolve into.

What moral spine? You're jabbering on a website that is fundamentally about toy soldiers. You're pretty much doing less than nothing.

Frazzled, that doesn't actually make any sense.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Anshal wrote:
Arctik_Firangi wrote:The lack of respect displayed in this thread is disgusting.
Congratulations, moderators.

+1
For once its nice to see people what a moral spine. And besides from the normal BS from the mods I except this tread to boil away into the normal goblin cave pile such treads evolve into.

What moral spine? You're jabbering on a website that is fundamentally about toy soldiers. You're pretty much doing less than nothing.

Frazzled, that doesn't actually make any sense.

only in your head Shuma, only in your head.

**LordofHats**

I mean, I'm sure we've all heard about the forced evictions from East Jerusalem? The city is not only occupied illegally but also seemingly subject to further illegal acts of annexation... Literally targeting people along ethnic lines and removing them.

It's not really about that. You really need to understand the mind set of Israel to understand why they do what they do. It's not so much that they want to eradicate Palestinian culture. What Israel is afraid of is another Holocaust or Diaspora (They're actually quite unpopular everywhere they go in history). That's why they absolutely REFUSE to budge on anything and act so aggressively at even the smallest sleight. The Palestinians on the other hand are a group of people who got seriously short changed by circumstance and are now being manipulated by extremists, which makes dealing with their real problems difficult.

Henners91 wrote:As for the bodies being disinterred, it said in the video that the Palestinians watch it by day... I think they'd notice if corpses were being disinterred, it seems that they're just flattening the cemetery.

We all know how accurate reporting in the middle east, or anywhere for that matter, is

. The bodies were probably removed. No body bulldozes graves that still have bodies in it. I don't see anything but rocks in the video. No sign of remains. What Palestinians are likely outraged about is that they have little or no say in their governance, so this historical site is being removed while they haven't even had a chance to really speak. Cemeteries are moved all the time. It's not illegal and it's not unusual. In this case it's a little improper because the people most effected by it's movement don't have a say in the matter.

"Minor thing in a minor village": Jerusalem? Yeaaah, that ol' backwater...

It is minor in a way. I doubt anyone world changing is buried there. It's more the principle of the matter than anything.

**Ktulhut**

Yet another glorious victory for gods chosen people!

Seriously, though, I'm of the opinion that Zionism is a mental disorder. (and please, no one equate that with me saying I hate jews, I don't). Here is a well written essay by Zaid Nabulsi which sums up my feelings on the matter.

Zaid Nabulsi wrote:
By Zaid Nabulsi

I lost my gloves one day in a coffee shop in Geneva, and I tell you, it’s difficult to ride a motorcycle without them when it’s really cold. So as I was paying for a new pair with a credit card, the salesman - who I knew was from Israel - asked me what my family name means. I told him that it relates to the city of Nablus where my family is originally from. Suddenly, the most bewildered look got plastered on his face.

“Where is Nablus?” he asked, “I’ve never heard of it”. Then he pretended to remember. “Ah, Shkheim you mean?”

With my insistence not to learn these ugly sounding names that the Zionists have dug up from oblivion to erase our identity, that name certainly didn’t ring a bell.

Now it was my turn. Although I knew where he was from, I asked: “And you’re… from?”

As he smiled, I replicated the look on his face moments ago. “Israel? Where is that?”

Then after a brief pause: “Ah, the land of Canaan you mean. Palestine.”

You see, if you want to get biblical, there was never such a thing as Israel, and I made that very clear to this gentleman with obnoxious chutzpah.

So here we were all of a sudden; my family descended from a place called Shkheim, and this guy became a Palestinian. God does work in mysterious ways, but I still thanked Him for His small mercies; that at least my name was not Zaid Shkheimy.

While the gloves warmed up my grip on the bike, my heart was still frozen. I just cannot stand thieves who steal your gloves, or any other kind of thieves.

Then it finally dawned on me. Zionism is a sickness, for it takes much more than just a twisted ideology to make people think like that. It requires a profound leap of immorality of a higher order to instill this mentality in your followers. Zionism is not merely a political movement, but in its essence represents a deeply disturbed view of the world, resulting from a terrible affliction of the mind.

Indeed, to deny the existence of a vibrant community such as the Palestinian society in the early 20th century and describe Palestine as “a land without a people for a people without a land” is a serious blinding ailment.

To assert property claims over real estate after thousands of years with the same certainty of title as if one resided there yesterday is the essence of arrogance.

To describe the colonial immigration to Palestine of a European people with no proven historical link to the ancient Israelites - and whose great, great recorded ancestors have never set foot there - as some kind of a “return” to that land is a distorted misapplication of the verb to “return”.

To blame the Palestinians for being unreasonable in rejecting a partition plan in 1947 which gave the Jews, who only owned 7 per cent of the land, an astounding half of Palestine, is an arithmetical impairment.

To eventually grab 78 per cent of Palestine through war, evict the population through massacres and then live in their same houses is unashamed theft.

To deny the orchestrated eradications of hundreds of Palestinian villages in 1948 and then denounce the Israeli historians who later exposed this truth as self-hating Jews is compulsive forgery.

To claim that having escaped the horrors of the Nazis is a justification for the murder, expulsion and occupation of another, guiltless, people is moral incapacity.

To legislate that any resident of Poland, New York or Brazil, who happens to be blessed with a Jewish mother (yet cannot point to Palestine on the map), has a right to “return” and settle in Palestine, unlike someone who has been expelled from his own land, confined to a squalid refugee camp and still holds the keys to his house, is racism.

To blame God for the theft and occupation of someone else’s land by claiming that it was He who had pledged this land exclusively to the Jews, and to seriously promote the myth of a land promised by the Almighty to His favourite children as an excuse for this crime, is insanity.

To milk the pockets of the entire world for the atrocities of the Nazis, while stubbornly refusing a simple admission of guilt, let alone compensation or repatriation, for the catastrophe that befell the Palestinian people, is perverted conceit.

To keep blackmailing the world with expensive museums and endless movies of the plight of the Jews under Hitler 70 years ago, while at the same time inflicting on the Palestinians today the fate of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto, is acute schizophrenia.

To impose collective guilt on the Western civilisation for the Holocaust and to criminalise all legitimate historical debate of the nature and extent of that horrific event is thuggery.

To incarcerate the Palestinian people inside degrading cages, destroy their livelihoods, confiscate their lands, steal their water and uproot their trees, and then to condemn their legitimate resistance as terrorism, and to exact vengeance on the innocent families of suicide bombers by punishing them with the dynamiting of their homes is sadistic cruelty.

To describe the offer of giving the Palestinians 80 per cent of 22 per cent of 100 per cent of what is originally their own land as a “generous” offer is macabre Shylockian humour.

To believe that you have the God-given right to continue to humiliate the Palestinians at gunpoint by making them queue for hours to move between their villages, forcing their mothers to give birth at checkpoints, is a predisposition to bestiality.

To flatten the camp of Jenin on its inhabitants’ heads and deny any wrongdoing is a severe delusional disorder.

To build a huge separation wall which disconnects farmers from their farms and children from their schools, while stealing even more territory as the wall freely zigzags and encroaches on Palestinian land is unrepentant immorality.

To leave behind, in the last 10 days of a losing war in Lebanon, more than one million cluster bombs which have no purpose except to murder and maim unsuspecting civilians is murderous depravity.

To believe that the entire world is out to get you, and to denounce any critic of the racist policies of the state of Israel as an anti-Semite, the latest victim being none other than peace-making Jimmy Carter, is hysterical mass paranoia.

To possess, in the midst of a non-nuclear Arab world, more than 200 nuclear warheads capable of incinerating the whole planet, in addition to having the most lethal arsenal of weaponry on earth, while continuing to demand sympathy, is the ultimate false victimisation syndrome.

And today, to blockade the world’s most densely populated strip of land for 18 months, suffocate its already displaced and miserable inhabitants by asking them to die a slow death, and then punish them for refusing to die silently by deliberately bombing their schools, mosques, hospitals and ambulances with internationally prohibited weapons and poisonous gasses in the ugliest televised massacre of children in modern history, all the while looking the world in the eyes and claiming that this is an act of self-defence, is a critical stage of dangerous psychosis, and is pure, unadulterated madness.

Yes, and for that salesman in peaceful Geneva to be as insecure as a common thief to refuse to acknowledge the name of the largest West Bank city under his country’s brutal military occupation is, sadly, more of the same infectious and ultimately fatal disease of the mind.

The writer is an attorney, partner in Nabulsi & Associates law firm. He contributed this article to The Jordan Times.

Also, I feel these quotes from Isreali politicians and Rabbis describes their view rather well, although I can't promise the accuracy of these:

Our race is the master race. We are devine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with an iron rod. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves. - Menechem Begin, former Israeli Prime Minister, june 25, 1982, in a speech to the Knesset.

One million Arabs are not worth a single Jewish fingernail - Rabbi Ya'acov Perin, in is eulogy at the funeral of Dr. Baruch Goldstein, cited in the New York Times, 28/2/1994

Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinian ones. - Ehud Olmert, 23/6/2006

There is no such thing as a Palestinian people. It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist. - Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel, in a statement to The Sunday Times, 15/6/1969

And yes, just as Mr. Nabulsi's writings suggest, I'll probably be labelled all sorts of things, like racist, anti-semite, etc, simply for having the audacity to publicly state my opposition to the state of Israel and its behaviour. But I digress. I'll leave you with all this for the moment.

**Andrew1975**

And yes, just as Mr. Nabulsi's writings suggest, I'll probably be labelled all sorts of things, like racist, anti-semite, etc, simply for having the audacity to publicly state my opposition to the state of Israel and its behaviour. But I digress. I'll leave you with all this for the moment.

No not gonna label you those things. I just think you took a thread about a cemetery that Muslims said could be built upon in 1964 and turned it into a debate that is now just going to degrade into another Israeli vs Muslim debate.

The thing with many of those arguments is that you could replace Israel with Islam, Jew with Muslim and they would still be correct, neither think the other is worth anything. When the Muslims took Spain they renamed all kinds of stuff, its what conquerors do. Lets not have this break down into a religious diatribe about who is right and wrong in the general sense, that is just gonna result in tempers flaring and the tread getting locked. Lets focus on the Issue of the cemetery.

**Samus_aran115**

Eh, they own it, who cares

It's a plot of land dedicated to honoring the rotting remains of dead people no one has even heard of anymore. Cemeteries are stupid anyway.

But I can see why muslims would be peeved.

**Ktulhut**

I can't help myself but argue on behalf of the oppressed. If the situation was flipped on its head, I'd be saying that the muslims were terrible, but it isn't. I'm most definately not saying that the palestinian people are without failings, or that they wouldn't do EXACTLY THE SAME THING given the chance, but the fact is, they aren't, because they can't.
I don't support the people who go and blow themselves up in Israel, but I absolutely loathe the idea of dropping white phosphorus on schools and shooting kids with tanks for throwing a rock or two.

**Andrew1975**

but I absolutely loathe the idea of dropping white phosphorus on schools

But randomly shooting rockets into schools is ok?

This is the problem with that debate, they both do things, the whole region is a mess. They are both oppressed. Palestinians are surrounded by Israelis surrounded by Muslims. Israel may be committing genocide against the Palestinians depending on your point of view. Iran along with much of the Muslim world pledges to commit genocide on Israel. Lebanon allows Hezbollah to shoot rockets into Israel. They are all pretty savage and I think the world would be better if they would just either make up or fight until only one is left I don't really care who. Just get it over with already so the rest of the world can move on. There are enough Jews and or Muslims scattered around the world that they will never be wiped out. The UN should just disarm the whole region and give everybody pointed sticks and get it over with.

So I understand the feelings, but this is about a small fraction of that. Don't make it about that. It's about a cemetery.

**Ktulhut**

Ok, it's about a cemetery. And it has no relevance to anything else. At all. This has nothing to do with the larger issue.

Seeya.

**Andrew1975**

Ok, it's about a cemetery. And it has no relevance to anything else. At all. This has nothing to do with the larger issue.

Not saying that, but to turn the issue of a cemetery into an analog of what is wrong with the whole middle east doesn't really accomplish anything. Say why you think the cemetery is wrong or say why you think it is right. But to just say Israel is bad so all their actions must be bad doesn't really do anything.

Now if you want to say "I don't like it because Israelis are desecrating a Muslim holy site." Well that is pertinent to the situation. That gives people something to do besides Israel sucks and Muslims suck. I just think everyone is sick of that argument.

**ShumaGorath**

Andrew1975 wrote:The UN should just disarm the whole region and give everybody pointed sticks and get it over with.

**Samus_aran115**

While they're at it, lets just blow up all of africa and call it a day, since clearly they aren't capable of being human

**Andrew1975**

Yeah, it was kind of the point. I mean the whole situation is slowed. I just threw out a impossible situation, because it's seams as possible as ever getting these two sides to reconcile. At least I would be entertained by the wicked stick fight.

**ShumaGorath**

Andrew1975 wrote:Yeah, it was kind of the point. I mean the whole situation is slowed. I just threw out a impossible situation, because it's seams as possible as ever getting these two sides to reconcile. At least I would be entertained by the wicked stick fight.

**Samus_aran115**

They should have given the Jews that piece of alaska that they were considering in the first place...No muslims there...Or anything, really.

**Andrew1975**

They should have given the Jews that piece of alaska that they were considering in the first place...No muslims there...Or anything, really.

Na, then people would complain that they are all baby seal killers and control the Alaskan pipe line.

Besides who would could the extremists train to launch rockets at them then? Polar bears!

Crap, and I'm telling someone else to stay on topic.

**Henners91**

Frazzled wrote:
Henners91 wrote:Oh dear Frazzled...

As for the bodies being disinterred, it said in the video that the Palestinians watch it by day... I think they'd notice if corpses were being disinterred, it seems that they're just flattening the cemetery.

"Minor thing in a minor village": Jerusalem? Yeaaah, that ol' backwater...

I'll admit that since Frazzled's first reply I had a niggling paranoia that he was trying to off-rail the serious nature of the subject simply because he doesn't care for those that have a bad word to say about Israel... Jokes may seem innocuous but it has had the quite visible effect of sidelining the actual premise of this thread.

Was it Pakistan or Palestine your dad went to? I wasn't sure if that was a typo or not... Frankly I think the discussion about the Ground Zero Mosque shows what a western minority thinks of "non-believers".

As for who gives a *blank*, well, I'm not out in the streets in an uproar, but I can still come across the video, watch it, and say "good gosh that's horrible". Historical objects may be destroyed everyday but when it's something that's clearly that important for a region, containing some of their holy figures, then surely that's a national tragedy? How would you like it if I ran over the graves of the founding fathers (wherever they may be, I don't give a *blank*, probably just in some minor village in a minor country way over the Atlantic Ocean).

@Mattyrm

I'm not naive enough to think that if I go off with that Free Gaza lot and get out my camcorder to film some Israelis having at their business, that would change anything... It's a matter for the politicians and I have written my MP in the past, perhaps that's just as naive but hey, I can't sit here doing nothing.

Its not serious. It ain't .

Do you have relatives in it? No? THEN WHY THE DO YOU CARE?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Henners91 wrote:Oh dear Frazzled...

As for the bodies being disinterred, it said in the video that the Palestinians watch it by day... I think they'd notice if corpses were being disinterred, it seems that they're just flattening the cemetery.

"Minor thing in a minor village": Jerusalem? Yeaaah, that ol' backwater...

I'll admit that since Frazzled's first reply I had a niggling paranoia that he was trying to off-rail the serious nature of the subject simply because he doesn't care for those that have a bad word to say about Israel... Jokes may seem innocuous but it has had the quite visible effect of sidelining the actual premise of this thread.

Was it Pakistan or Palestine your dad went to? I wasn't sure if that was a typo or not... Frankly I think the discussion about the Ground Zero Mosque shows what a western minority thinks of "non-believers".

As for who gives a *blank*, well, I'm not out in the streets in an uproar, but I can still come across the video, watch it, and say "good gosh that's horrible". Historical objects may be destroyed everyday but when it's something that's clearly that important for a region, containing some of their holy figures, then surely that's a national tragedy? How would you like it if I ran over the graves of the founding fathers (wherever they may be, I don't give a *blank*, probably just in some minor village in a minor country way over the Atlantic Ocean).

@Mattyrm

I'm not naive enough to think that if I go off with that Free Gaza lot and get out my camcorder to film some Israelis having at their business, that would change anything... It's a matter for the politicians and I have written my MP in the past, perhaps that's just as naive but hey, I can't sit here doing nothing.

I should note, I don't care if its Israel-you do. Crap like this happens all the time. It sucks. Life sucks. In the end you will die, often horribly, often alone. No one will care.
This is just irrelevant to anyone not trying to find something against one particular country.

Did you have any relatives in the WTC? Then why do you care about that? Or, if you're going to respond to that one with "It was in my country", how about the 7/7 bombings over here?

Ofc those are extreme examples and in no way equal to this, but that's how flawed your logic appears to me.I don't know whether you're trying to come across as an individual so weathered by life's pageant that you no longer have basic emotional reactions to unfortunate events (if such is not the case, sitting on an internet forum saying you find it sad doesn't exactly take much effort... so why not do it? I'm hardly printing off banners and flyers now, am I?), or (and I consider this far more likely considering your remark implying that by-taking the time to make the topic, I must "hate one country") you're flatly pro-Israel and thus feel the need to belittle any unfortunate occurrences as not worth our time to even talk about passively. Really I feel that sebster was spot on with his early comment

**sebster**

Andrew1975 wrote:It's a tolerance museum and the Muslims already said it could be used back in 1964. I don't see a real problem here. If Israel was building a Synagogue over it that would be one thing, maybe. It's not even like it's a Synagogue veiled as a tolerance center (Cordoba House).

"Veiled" As if there's a secret mosque being built there and the rest of the facility is just a cover. For feth's sake.

Yes, there is a mosque being built there. The intent is to build a mosque along the principles of Sufi Islam, a branch of Islam with a high emphasis on tolerance and humanism, the guy building it is a moderate who wrote a book called "What's right with Islam Is What's Right with America".

Accept that and start making posts that have some kind of relation to the real world.

It also seams hypocritical since Muslims have a long tradition of building Mosques over other religions holy sites without permission anyway.

It is bad when they do it, and they should be criticised for such, just as everyone else should be. But he was doing it too didn't work on Mum, I don't see why it would work in the adult world.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh you're quite mistake, good sir. I mean, Dakka has standards hidden away somewhere.

There are standards, if we were making jokes about an Israeli gravesite being moved by Palestinians crews this thread would have been locked very quickly.

Frazzled wrote:This is just irrelevant to anyone not trying to find something against one particular country.

Oh look, the 'you only have a problem with it because you're secretly against Israel' line. That was unexpected.

**Orlanth**

Is time we ended the long held propoganda principle that as Jews are the 'world's victims', Israel can do it pleases to those who are not their kind.

Either tolerance and rememberance and repect applies to everyone or its not worth crowing about.

Perhaps if the concentration camp memorials were threatened with bulldozing too that might bring this wrong abominable episode into proper light. Of course there would be outrage, then Israel would have to explain why they act as they do if they want to keep the memory of their own history alive.

It cant be a lesson on 'mans inhumanity to man', anyone who looks at Israel can see that lesson has not been learned. Stop the dehumanising of Palestinians, stop opressing them and restricting their rights and liberty. They have too long been slaves, and the blind eye we show to their suffering makes our own campainging against militant Islam hollow.

**Marshal2Crusaders**

FREE PAKASTILLIA

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:It also seams hypocritical since Muslims have a long tradition of building Mosques over other religions holy sites without permission anyway.

Groups of people can't be hypocritical. It isn't hypocritical for a white American living today to state that he has no problem with black people, even if his grandfather said the opposite.

Similarly, it is not hypocritical for Rabbi Marvin Hier, a member of the Simon Wisenthal center, to say the following:

Hier wrote:
For 3000 families, the 9/11 site is one of the — is the site of one of the greatest atrocities ever committed in the United States, and it’s a cemetery. And the opinion of the families should be paramount as to what should go near that site. Now having a fifteen-story mosque within 1600 feet of the site is at the very least insensitive.

Unless, of course, he doesn't feel the same way about the proposed tolerance center, or doesn't consider the graves being removed to be legitimate (not as bad as it sounds, as it has been claimed that the graves were faked to cause a controversy), or doesn't consider the site to be a cemetery due to it not being an official part of one (wonky given that neither is Ground Zero).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Its not serious. It ain't .

Do you have relatives in it? No? THEN WHY THE DO YOU CARE?

Why do you?

Frazzled wrote:
This is just irrelevant to anyone not trying to find something against one particular country.

...or studying the conflict, or working for an aid organization, or working an NGO, or looking to work for an NGO or aid organization, etc.

**Emperors Faithful**

"Normal" Posts:

sebster wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh you're quite mistake, good sir. I mean, Dakka has standards hidden away somewhere.

There are standards, if we were making jokes about an Israeli gravesite being moved by Palestinians crews this thread would have been locked very quickly.

Frazzled's Posts:

**Andrew1975**

sebster wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:It's a tolerance museum and the Muslims already said it could be used back in 1964. I don't see a real problem here. If Israel was building a Synagogue over it that would be one thing, maybe. It's not even like it's a Synagogue veiled as a tolerance center (Cordoba House).

"Veiled" As if there's a secret mosque being built there and the rest of the facility is just a cover. For feth's sake.

Yes, there is a mosque being built there. The intent is to build a mosque along the principles of Sufi Islam, a branch of Islam with a high emphasis on tolerance and humanism, the guy building it is a moderate who wrote a book called "What's right with Islam Is What's Right with America".

Accept that and start making posts that have some kind of relation to the real world.

Look, if there is one place in the world that needs a tolerance center it's in the middle east, in Israel actually. Muslims already gave their approval for construction on the site in 1964. The fact it's not a synagogue it's a tolerance center, but it could have been a synagogue if they wanted to be, they have been given permission. The fact that it's not a synagogue, or synagogue dressed as a tolerance center is actually quite pertinent and have relation to the world. As Cordoba house is being touted as a tolerance center that happens to have a mosque in it, this is the marketing they have been using lately.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with just a tolerance center being built by ground zero. So why are these people getting all bent out of shape about a tolerance center being built in Israel. Besides the obvious, they all hate each other.

So I apologize that you can't understand that sebster, but that makes it quite relevant to the real world.

It also seams hypocritical since Muslims have a long tradition of building Mosques over other religions holy sites without permission anyway.

It is bad when they do it, and they should be criticised for such, just as everyone else should be. But he was doing it too didn't work on Mum, I don't see why it would work in the adult world.

If you paid attention at all to what I have written I wasn't defending or attacking anyone here. I think they are all wrong. Conquerors routinely rename places and desecrate holy sites. But the Israels have permission.

And as for what your Mum said I'm gonna take her advice here, and not use an insulting tone towards you. But I'd watch your tone. Rule number 1 and we know frazzled is watching.

Dogma wrote Groups of people can't be hypocritical. It isn't hypocritical for a white American living today to state that he has no problem with black people, even if his grandfather said the opposite.

Similarly, it is not hypocritical for Rabbi Marvin Hier, a member of the Simon Wisenthal center, to say the following:

Hier wrote:
For 3000 families, the 9/11 site is one of the — is the site of one of the greatest atrocities ever committed in the United States, and it’s a cemetery. And the opinion of the families should be paramount as to what should go near that site. Now having a fifteen-story mosque within 1600 feet of the site is at the very least insensitive.

Unless, of course, he doesn't feel the same way about the proposed tolerance center, or doesn't consider the graves being removed to be legitimate (not as bad as it sounds, as it has been claimed that the graves were faked to cause a controversy), or doesn't consider the site to be a cemetery due to it not being an official part of one (wonky given that neither is Ground Zero).

Again the situation is different, The Kordoba house in NYC is a mosque with a tolerance center or a tolerance center with a mosque, however they are marketing it today. The tolerance center in Israel is just a tolerance center. I think they are both failed projects as a tolerance center should probably be built somewhere where it's location could inspire greater intolerance.

**sebster**

Andrew1975 wrote:As Cordoba house is being touted as a tolerance center that happens to have a mosque in it, this is the marketing they have been using lately.

The point I've been making, in what I thought was pretty plain English, is that it isn't a marketing effort to call it a tolerance centre. The guy behind this has put his entire public life into bridging the gap between Islam and the West. Just go look at the books he's written. He's genuine. He really wants this to be a tolerance centre. It is really that straight forward.

I don't think anyone would have a problem with just a tolerance center being built by ground zero. So why are

these people getting all bent out of shape about a tolerance center being built in Israel.

It's about digging up the dead. That matters to people.

If you paid attention at all to what I have written I wasn't defending or attacking anyone here. I think they are all wrong. Conquerors routinely rename places and desecrate holy sites. But the Israels have permission.

Do you really think permission granted in the 60s is that indisputable. Really?

And as for what your Mum said I'm gonna take her advice here, and not use an insulting tone towards you. But I'd watch your tone. Rule number 1 and we know frazzled is watching.

I don't see the problem with my tone... I mean I really don't get it. I said 'they did it too' doesn't cut it for kids, and doesn't cut it for adults. Adn that's just a basic truth, an unacceptable act doesn't become more acceptable because lots of people do it.

**dogma**

Andrew1975 wrote:
Again the situation is different, The Kordoba house in NYC is a mosque with a tolerance center or a tolerance center with a mosque, however they are marketing it today. The tolerance center in Israel is just a tolerance center. I think they are both failed projects as a tolerance center should probably be built somewhere where it doesn't cause intolerance.

Well, initially I made a point about the statement in question wasn't hypocritical, but now that I look back I see that I missed something. In both cases groups of people are angry about building something that is intended to inspire tolerance. In both cases the builders are dismissing the concerns of the injured parties in order to go ahead with the construction. The reason for the umbrage seems unimportant in light of the comment that was made. Maybe Hier doesn't like the idea of a mosque in a tolerance center, but the substance of his comment is that the wishes of those affected by the deaths of people in a cemetery should take precedent.