Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Its 10 points. If you kill one model you already made back your points. (Or two for GEQs, even easier) It also makes Valkiries not suck against footslogging hordes. Done.

The Vendetta should treat those HBs the exact same way a Leman Russ does the Heavy Stubber. If you've got nothing else to spend the points on (highly unlikely, but possible) OR you think it looks way too cool on the model, you buy it. Otherwise I don't see the point since all it might do is distract you from the primary mission of the unit. Which is to say that if you start looking for ways to use the heavy bolters when there are still targets that are better killed with Lascannon you are making a bad choice.

The Valkyrie is a totally different animal and, in my opinion, never leave home without the sponsons. Of course I think they should've been Heavy Stubbers hanging from the top of the doorway on bungie cords, but that just me.

Ailaros wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:What? You still shoot the lascannons, the heavy bolters are just a bonus. If you had to forgo the lascannons to shoot the heavy bolters, they'd be terrible.

it is going to be very infrequent when your heavy bolters and lascannons are good against the same target (note, I said "good", not "possibly effective at all").

Oh right, you're the one who thinks Autocannons are bad. Yeah, whatever.

pchappel wrote:Pretty sure I'll not be using the HB's when I field it as that, unless for whatever reason I happen to have 10 points to spare after I've put pintle mounted Heavy Stubbers on all of my other stuff (or missiles I guess)...

Stubbers? Missiles? Ugh.

meh I prefer bolters on normal valk since it wont mess up AP assigning

kenshin620 wrote:meh I prefer bolters on normal valk since it wont mess up AP assigning

I have seen this comment brought up a few times in this thread , so let me ask this.
Assuming most average vendettas are armed with 3 TL lascannon and transports melta veterans ,

What do you guys do with the vendetta after the enemy tanks are all destroyed?

I'd imagine taking down the next most threatening thing on the list (terminators, etc.) and contesting objectives (or picking guys back up for insta-scoring).

Ailaros wrote:I'd imagine taking down the next most threatening thing on the list (terminators, etc.) and contesting objectives (or picking guys back up for insta-scoring).

Darn... leaving out all the "average" troops with 4+ armor and less

... which are going to fall like wheat to the scythe when a pair of BS3 heavy bolters are brought to bear...

Really, the only time when you're going to be so desperate for targets that it's going to be worth keeping the lascannons silent is if you're facing a horde army, which a couple heavy bolters won't do very much against.

That's the second time you've mentioned not firing the Lascannons, Ailaros. I'm not sure what the basis of this statement is, since you can fire all the cannons and the bolters at the same time.

Fetterkey wrote:Oh right, you're the one who thinks Autocannons are bad. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, sometimes math and facts are totally not-cool.

In general, I've been somewhat disappointed with Vendettas; they're less survivable than I theorycrafted they would be. My new strategy is to outflank in almost all games, rather than give such an obvious target to enemy 1st turn AT firepower. This is highly relevant to the Heavy Bolter issue because an outflanking Vendetta can usually get side (or sometimes even rear) shots on vehicles.

The Heavy Bolters are not just a "what-if" response to horde armies; they also help the Vendetta accomplish it's primary mission.

ElCheezus wrote:I'm not sure what the basis of this statement is, since you can fire all the cannons and the bolters at the same time.

If you're sitting still, or moving very slowly, then yes, you can shoot them all. If you don't want your flimsey vehicle with 3 TL lascannons to get blown out of the sky immediately, you're going to want to move fast, which precludes you from shooting all your weapons.

Dave47 wrote: they also help the Vendetta accomplish it's primary mission.

Slightly. I mean, seriously, do the math for 6 heavy bolter shots. Against AV10 they help (but really, how much help do you need when you've got 3TL lascannons?) but for any armor heavier than that, they're not doing much.

Ailaros wrote:

ElCheezus wrote:I'm not sure what the basis of this statement is, since you can fire all the cannons and the bolters at the same time.

If you're sitting still, or moving very slowly, then yes, you can shoot them all. If you don't want your flimsey vehicle with 3 TL lascannons to get blown out of the sky immediately, you're going to want to move fast, which precludes you from shooting all your weapons.

This is a ridiculous argument that does nothing to justify your previous statement (that ElCheezus is responding to) that having the heavy bolters somehow precludes you from firing the lascannons. If you're moving slow enough to fire all three lascannons (as you usually should if it's performing its primary gunboat duties), then you can fire the bolters, too. If you're turbo-boosting for a cover save, then you're not firing anything anyway. And if you're honestly forced to turbo boost every turn so you don't "get blown out of the sky immediately", then you're either using the Vendetta inappropriately, or Valkyries/Vendettas in general are a poor fit in your meta (i.e. everyone plays Space Wolves with three full units of Long Fangs with attached Cyclone Terminator Wolf Guard).

All that being said, I've mixed feelings on the heavy bolters. There may be better ways to spend 10 points in an IG army (especially multiplied across several birds), but there certainly are worse ones. I've had games where they would have come in handy, and just as many or more where they were never missed. I tend to be strapped for points no matter the size of the game, so I rarely use them.

kenshin620 wrote:meh I prefer bolters on normal valk since it wont mess up AP assigning

This I very much disagree with. The beauty of the normal valkyrie is that the rocket pods count as defensive weapons, so you can fire all three of your main guns while moving 12". This makes the Valkyrie a much more effective transport outside of the "turboboost FTW in the last turn" technique. Since by their very function (and shorter range of weapons) they are forced to be closer to the opponent, they need that extra 6" to stay out of assault and melta range. Really, a properly used Valkyrie should have even fewer opportunities to fire the heavy bolters than the Vendetta.

And on that note, it'd be interesting if they upped the Defensive Weapons limit to S5. I know as a Guard player I'd jump all over tripHB Russes, and every bird would get sponsons. I'm sure Space Marine players would be similarly content (I tremble at the prospect of a flamestorm/twinHF outflanking Baal getting to move 12" and firing everything), and even Eldar players would probably be happy to glue some of those shuriken cannons back on their vehicles.

Terminus wrote:And on that note, it'd be interesting if they upped the Defensive Weapons limit to S5. I know as a Guard player I'd jump all over tripHB Russes, and every bird would get sponsons. I'm sure Space Marine players would be similarly content (I tremble at the prospect of a flamestorm/twinHF outflanking Baal getting to move 12" and firing everything), and even Eldar players would probably be happy to glue some of those shuriken cannons back on their vehicles.

Wouldn't really help the Eldar since shuriken cannons are S6. About the only thing that would affect would be Fire Prisms, who would then be able to fire dispersed prism cannons as defensive weapons. Tau would be jumping for joy since nearly everything they have is S5 and it would bring certain Chimera builds back to the fore since the hull weapon would always be defensive again. Double heavy flamer wouldn't be such an obvious mistake and you could fire two heavy bolters or a heavy bolter and multilaser on the move again for a more powerful Chimera phalanx.

ph34r wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Oh right, you're the one who thinks Autocannons are bad. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, sometimes math and facts are totally not-cool.

Can we please not do this again? We've had enough threads killed off by this "debate".

Ailaros wrote:Really, the only time when you're going to be so desperate for targets that it's going to be worth keeping the lascannons silent is if you're facing a horde army, which a couple heavy bolters won't do very much against.

Actually, against an ork horde, I took my two vendettas and committed them to frying the Nob squads. With tyranids, they're my answer to MCs. Even horde armies have their big things that need killing.

Ailaros wrote:
If you're sitting still, or moving very slowly, then yes, you can shoot them all. If you don't want your flimsey vehicle with 3 TL lascannons to get blown out of the sky immediately, you're going to want to move fast, which precludes you from shooting all your weapons.

Honestly, I'm usually doing the "six inch shuffle" with my vendettas until they're actually hit. I get a crew shaken or stunned and then I move flat out. I've seldom ever run out of enough targets that I wanted to fire lascannons at that I wished I had another set of heavy bolters. Matter of fact, I can't think of the last time I actually wished I had another set of heavy bolters, for the matter.

Terminus wrote:If you're moving slow enough to fire all three lascannons (as you usually should if it's performing its primary gunboat duties), then you can fire the bolters, too. If you're turbo-boosting for a cover save, then you're not firing anything anyway. And if you're honestly forced to turbo boost every turn so you don't "get blown out of the sky immediately", then you're either using the Vendetta inappropriately, or Valkyries/Vendettas in general are a poor fit in your meta (i.e. everyone plays Space Wolves with three full units of Long Fangs with attached Cyclone Terminator Wolf Guard).

Exactly.

Without going into extensive pro and con arguments: I don´t use heavy bolters in my Vendettas and Valkyries. I have other uses for the points. YMMV. Carry on.

Raxmei wrote:Wouldn't really help the Eldar since shuriken cannons are S6. About the only thing that would affect would be Fire Prisms, who would then be able to fire dispersed prism cannons as defensive weapons. Tau would be jumping for joy since nearly everything they have is S5 and it would bring certain Chimera builds back to the fore since the hull weapon would always be defensive again. Double heavy flamer wouldn't be such an obvious mistake and you could fire two heavy bolters or a heavy bolter and multilaser on the move again for a more powerful Chimera phalanx.

Well I'll be damned, they sure are S6. I stand corrected sir, and thank you. Makes me wonder why I never see them. I have great success with my multilasers, and a waveserpent can put out 6 S6 (3TL) shots for only 110 points (instead of dishing an outrageous 45 points just for the TL brightlance).

Anyway, it sounds like a great house rule for Spearhead, at least (I realize not everyone would be enthused as I at the prospect of even more uber vehicles in standard games). It would also be a great excuse to make Tau players wait even longer for a new codex. Muahahaha.