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Are heavy bolter sponsons on Vendettas worth it?

At Nova Open I talked to Danny Internets and he made some strong arguments for them that they are a good deal for the points vs stubbers on chimeras or bolter sponsons on russes. if you run into infantry lists they are really good giving you more shots and if you shooting at AV 11 Rhinos or AV10 Speeders they can get damage results. The argument against is you shoot at tanks most of the time with Vendettas and in that case the heavy bolter sponsons are not very useful.

Lets see. They let you hurt infantry. They let you hurt side/rear armor on most vehicles, for a whopping 10 points on an already underpriced vehicle, yes please

10pts for a pair of heavy bolters is a fairly good deal, but for the most part your shooting at heavy vehicles (AV12-14) and this renders the h. bolter pretty much useless. Also don't forget that you'll regularly be moving 6-12" per turn so only get to fire one weapon anyway.

L. Wrex

10 pts, 6 S5, ap4 shots. Once the Vendetta bust the Transport, stay out of 24" Plasma Range and hose down infantry.

The Heavy bolters are there once your Vendetta has completed it's primary mission of killing heavy armour/ dropping Melta and demo vets to alpha strike/ busting transport. (depending on what the rest of your army is doing) .
If you kill 2 orks or IG, you made your points back for a secondary target weapon.

Why not? The Vendetta already has what you would be giving it it anyway. You certainly are not replacing the Three Twink-Linked Lascannons. I mean, for 10pt you get two Heavy Bolters? There are alot of worse things in your army you can spend 10 pts on. Not very many things that are better.

Well I find myself usually shooting at vehicles most of the time and vendettas are high priority targets so they get shot down or shaken so making them cost more isn't the greatest. Although if they do make it to late game the heavy bolters will be good assuming all the vehicles are dead.

I tend to be pretty tight on points so finding 30 points to give all 3 Vendettas heavy bolters is harder then you think.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Also don't forget that you'll regularly be moving 6-12" per turn so only get to fire one weapon anyway.

A vendetta moving 6" can fire all weapons.

Kirika wrote:I tend to be pretty tight on points so finding 30 points to give all 3 Vendettas heavy bolters is harder then you think.

This is my reason for not taking them. They are cheap for what you get, but in addition to my vendettas mainly targeting vehicles and monstrous creatures, when they fire at infantry it's usually terminators or the like, so the S5 AP4 shots just gives my opponent wound allocation games to play.

Terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Also don't forget that you'll regularly be moving 6-12" per turn so only get to fire one weapon anyway.

A vendetta moving 6" can fire all weapons.

A Vendetta moving 12" can fire one + defensive weapons which IIRC are S5 and under, thus you can fire a lascannon and both of the heavy bolters

Terminus wrote:A vendetta moving 6" can fire all weapons.

Indeed, but when you think back to its primary role it'll be shooting all 3 lascannons at heavily armoured targets, where the HBs won't do any good. If you move over 6", to get side shots on armour for example, you won't be firing the heavy bolters at all. So why take a secondary weapon that you ether won't be using because your shooting the wrong target type, or won't be shooting because your using your mobility?

Just because you can take a pair of guns for a very good price doesn't neccesarily mean you should....If we were talking about whether to take sponsons on a Valkyrie however....

L. Wrex



Automatically Appended Next Post:

wizard12 wrote:A Vendetta moving 12" can fire one + defensive weapons which IIRC are S5 and under, thus you can fire a lascannon and both of the heavy bolters

Defensive weapons are S4.

L. Wrex

I've had many, many times where having HB sponsons on my Vendettas has paid off. If you're playing objective based games, there is a definite possibility that you need to knock a group off, or finish off a troops choice. Even if there are still vehicles to fire at, the option to throw out three times as many shots shouldn't be ignored.

I wouldn't put them on Valks, though. I'd want to keep them moving 12" and firing everything.

In principle, I fully support L. Wrex. The only thing that throws doubt at me is the sheer number of people who swear by them.

Were I ever to use vendettas (which, personally, I wouldn't, as air cav doesn't interest me), I think I'd have to try maybe one with them just to see what all the hubbub is about. My guess is that I'd probably get disappointed in them rather quickly, but I don't know.

Like others have stated earlier - its only 10pts. Where else can you get 2 heavy bolters for only 10pts? Also, there will be times when there just isn't any armor to shoot at - wouldn't the extra HB shots be nice?

If you have the points heavy bolter sponsons on Valkyrie Vendetta variants are worth it but the problem is finding points.

I understand and support the basic argument of "don't dilute it's role" and therefore waste points. I'm seeing the wisdom in that line of reason with my Russ, and am taking sponsons less often unless I truly have "spare" points.

However, I've seen the opportunity bought for 10 points pay off many, many times. The occasions I've had to shoot at AV 12 or greater for an entire game without some sort of troop being a better target are few and far between, if ever.

They cost 10 points. If you shoot at a Space Marine squad, you get 6 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2/3 of a kill, and there are your 10 points back right there. I'd say heavy bolters are definitely a great investment on a Vendetta.

I think one of the things people are missing here when calculating benefit:cost is some of the hidden costs. For example, you have a cost of time that comes with spending 14%-20% of your time shooting a couple cruddy heavy bolters at something. Also, you have the opportunity cost of not shooting the lascannons.

Yeah, you are inevitably going to find yourself in a "why not?" situation where you might as well fire heavy bolters at space marines, but should you PLAN for it?

In any case, simply saying that it kills 2/3ds of a marine for 2/3ds of the cost of a marine is an insufficiently nuanced point of view.

With all the melta vets and squadrons of Vendetta, there wont be many vehicles that will survive.

So after the vehicles are all gone , the extra hvy bolter will continue to harass infantries , atleast doubling the kill power from just 3 lascannon shots.

Ailaros wrote:I think one of the things people are missing here when calculating benefit:cost is some of the hidden costs. For example, you have a cost of time that comes with spending 14%-20% of your time shooting a couple cruddy heavy bolters at something. Also, you have the opportunity cost of not shooting the lascannons.

What? You still shoot the lascannons, the heavy bolters are just a bonus. If you had to forgo the lascannons to shoot the heavy bolters, they'd be terrible.

Getting 5 heavy weapons on a fast transport for 140pts is a pretty damn good deal. The vendetta can also outflank and is fast enough to threaten side armour, so the heavy bolters can aid in taking down armour. Against many armies, you also often hit a point where there are no priority vehicle targets left, and with 9 shots, the vendetta is decent in picking off stragglers etc.

Ailaros wrote:I think one of the things people are missing here when calculating benefit:cost is some of the hidden costs. For example, you have a cost of time that comes with spending 14%-20% of your time shooting a couple cruddy heavy bolters at something. Also, you have the opportunity cost of not shooting the lascannons.

Yeah, you are inevitably going to find yourself in a "why not?" situation where you might as well fire heavy bolters at space marines, but should you PLAN for it?

In any case, simply saying that it kills 2/3ds of a marine for 2/3ds of the cost of a marine is an insufficiently nuanced point of view.

Yes, you should plan for it. Your are planning to maximise your potential for a unit. Your are adding flexibility to a unit. Instead of the Vendetta only being good at kiiling armor, it is now good at kiiling troops or light av vehicle squardrons as well. The potential return on the investment of only 10pts makes adding heavy bolters worth it.

LunaHound wrote: the extra hvy bolter will continue to harass infantries , atleast doubling the kill power from just 3 lascannon shots.

Harrass and double the killing power from very, very low, up to simply very low. HBs make the valkyrie less awful at targets it wasn't designed to fight in the first place, but it's not like they make them good against hordes. This is why the weapon is so cheap.

Fetterkey wrote:What? You still shoot the lascannons, the heavy bolters are just a bonus. If you had to forgo the lascannons to shoot the heavy bolters, they'd be terrible.

it is going to be very infrequent when your heavy bolters and lascannons are good against the same target (note, I said "good", not "possibly effective at all").

Either you're wasting lascannons on boys or you're wasting heavy bolter shots on AV12 or MCs or the like.

Vrakk wrote: Your are planning to maximise your potential for a unit. Your are adding flexibility to a unit.

Well then why not always take every upgrade possible for every vehicle you take?

There's a reason people don't...

Vrakk wrote: The potential return on the investment of only 10pts makes adding heavy bolters worth it.

Once again, you're just looking at the points and missing the other half of the picture. The other half of the cost is sitting still and not getting SMF and wasting lascannon shots at stuff you're shooting heavy bolters at. Time and movement are also costs, in addition to the actual points cost.

I think it's actually a perfectly priced upgrade. At ten points, it's a cheap bonus for a unit that might come up handy, but if you don't buy it, you're not really missing much.

The IG codex has probably a dozen great ways to spend between 10 and 30 points, so for me an upgrade has to be more than "good", it needs to be better than the rest.

Most of the time, I'd rather take a Plasma Pistol on my CCS, or a powerweapon, or bump an AC to an LC in a squad than take the heavy bolters, but I can see upsides to the other things.

Running it as a Valkyrie, I can see the possibility of going to the 140 point level with rocket pods and HB's along with the multi laser just for massed shots... It would limit my vehicle to a 6" move though, but the extra 10 points I can see being useful enough of the time... The Vendetta, I see more as a dedicated gunship like my Marine Predators (Annihilator)... Pretty sure I'll not be using the HB's when I field it as that, unless for whatever reason I happen to have 10 points to spare after I've put pintle mounted Heavy Stubbers on all of my other stuff (or missiles I guess)... Only having the one, I'm not so sure it's a viable Air Cav thing, in squadrons I think it could be impressive... Once. I suspect after someone took all that fire from a Valkyrie squadron they'd move to the top of a target priority list... :-) But I could be wrong...

personally if i had 10 points spare id rather add a melta to a squad to make sure they hit more often.
I have never really seen the point of adding sponsons on leman russes or heavy bolters to vendettas, for if i dont over load all my vehicles i can afford an extra tank which means another firing model at another target (or finishing one off) plus another target for the enemy to worry about. lets be honest most vehicles (esp vendettas) will be moving and cant fire all weapons or staying far enough back (48") so the lascannons can do there stuff while staying as far from harm as possable. if you get close enough to use the heavy bolters you are close enough for something that can damage your av12.

and when people say about amount of shots, well personally id rather fire an ap2 weapon that negates all armour saves than an ap4 that wont vs MEQ.

Ask yourself this question: "Is this unit going to shoot at infantry at all this battle?"
And you have your answer.
I would assemble them but not glue them on so that you can pick and choose based on context.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Defensive weapons are S4.

L. Wrex

Yeah, we Tau players only wish it was S5....

On topic, you'll always be able to shoot them so why not if you can fit it?

The heavy bolters won't change a thing when it comes to moving your vendetta, so all arguments in that direction are moot. A vendetta will move 6" most of the time, so it can shoot everything, the rest of the time, it will be going fast, so it can't shoot anything anyways.

Heavy bolters also make the vendetta better at anti-MC/multiwound T5+/EW models. (f.ex: hive guard)

Also, the vendetta is not anti heavy-armour. You don't really want to fire at AV14 with it (hardly even AV13), it is more anti light/medium tanks, and the heavy bolters can aid that role to some degree.

It also makes it excellent for picking off remaining members of squads (which ordnance does very poorly)

They are not mandatory by any standard, but IMO, they are often the best way to spend those 10pts

Or you can do like I do, and just shut the side doors in the games you aren't paying for them .

For me, I've found that my Vendetta typicaly dies before the bolters become useful, but that probably has more to do with me sticking the blasted thing a little too far into harms way than is good for its health.

I wouldn't, because mixing weapons is bad in this edition.
Example:
Enemy has plague marines on an objective. One is an aspiring champ.

If you shoot the 3 twin-linked lascannons, the plague marines die. No matter how he allocates, a model will take an ap2 wound.

Funny enough, if you shoot the heavy bolters and the 3 twin-linked lascannons, you'll do WORSE.

The plague marine player will just stack the lascannon hits onto the 1 plague marine and make the aspiring champ take the armor saves. Heck, there might even be an excess of armor save wounds that disappear with the 1 dying plague marine.

This only doesn't happen against big squads. So really, the only reason to take heavy bolters is to shoot at hordes.

Ailaros wrote:

LunaHound wrote: the extra hvy bolter will continue to harass infantries , atleast doubling the kill power from just 3 lascannon shots.

Harrass and double the killing power from very, very low, up to simply very low. HBs make the valkyrie less awful at targets it wasn't designed to fight in the first place, but it's not like they make them good against hordes. This is why the weapon is so cheap.

So you are saying , after the Vendettas killed all their armored targets , its not worth it to pay 8% extra in points to double the amount fire power at other targets?