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If cover is irrelevant, then why would assault grenades be applicable? Assault grenades only work when assaulting a unit in cover, not when taking a dangerous terrain test to assault.

Mahtamori wrote:Being in cover does NOT mean you are protected by it when someone assaults you. The assaulting unit MUST take a difficult terrain test in order to receive any penalties at all.

Cover. Is. Irrelevant.

Mahtamori wrote:No. I am saying that being in a situation that grants you a cover save means you are in cover, as per the rules on page 21.

This is what confused me then.

Mahtamori wrote:Page 21. The Shooting Phase. Taking Armour saves sub-section. Cover Saves sub-sub-section.
"What counts as cover? Cover is basically anything that is hiding the target or protecting it from incoming shots."

...or is your argument actually that the unit assaulting has to move through a terrain feature that would grant THEM cover?

Further down in "When are models in Cover? on page 21.

This makes it sticky but I sort of think Spore Cloud is cover then but Spore Cloud could not only be applied when shot at but also then when shooting out of (if greater then 2" in). Since "Venomthropes emit a cloud of airborne spores so dense that it shrouds everything nearby."p45 Codex: Tyranids is the rule for representing it. Every tyrannid assaulting from and even through it would also be assaulting from cover also then, all cover rules would apply.

It definitely is not dangerous terrain though, it merely forces the test and only upon non-friendly units and only when they get assaulted not simply move into it. So no 1d6 for assault range and no Initiative reduction. The Initiative reduction is a result of difficult/dangerous terrain, not the test. RaW tells us what it, the dangerous terrain test, represents when assaulting through cover and RaW tells us what the dangerous terrain test from Spore Cloud represents and they are not the same. But is that really RaW or is it RaI masquerading as RaW by being in the RaW section, or is it RaW by virtue of being in the RaW section? Is trying to separate them just us trying to us RaI. Clearly my positions changed and I hate this rules wording, thankfully I see Venomthropes even less often then Arjac's Foehammer.

Leez wrote:The Initiative reduction is a result of difficult/dangerous terrain, not the test.

I do not believe that is the case. The initiative reduction is explictely stated to be caused by the rolling the dice, not the terrain. The test is indeed in the rules for assaulting models in cover, because outside of (more specific) special rules, that is the only time it would occur. Those (more specific) special rules state that the test is made, not that (terrain or) cover is changed.

Also, it is possible (though perhaps irrelevant) to assault models in cover without ever rolling the dice for dangerous OR difficult terrain, making that counter point awkward as well.

Brother Ramses wrote:If cover is irrelevant, then why would assault grenades be applicable? Assault grenades only work when assaulting a unit in cover, not when taking a dangerous terrain test to assault.

Because the situation "assaulting through cover" is defined on the same page. I think "assaulting through cover" is a silly way of naming it, since, realistically, that's something you want to do (who in their right mind would want to charge over open terrain!? It's one of the things that got so many killed in WWI). The only problem is that I can't come up with a short, yet descriptive, name for it.

kirsanth wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Being in cover does NOT mean you are protected by it when someone assaults you. The assaulting unit MUST take a difficult terrain test in order to receive any penalties at all.

Cover. Is. Irrelevant.

Mahtamori wrote:No. I am saying that being in a situation that grants you a cover save means you are in cover, as per the rules on page 21.

This is what confused me then.

Yeah, I'm stuck in a position where I'm arguing terminology and rules at the same time. It's a bad situation to get yourself stuck in, believe me. Page 21 is simply impressing that "being in cover" doesn't mean you're in terrain.

kirsanth wrote:

Leez wrote:The Initiative reduction is a result of difficult/dangerous terrain, not the test.

I do not believe that is the case. The initiative reduction is explictely stated to be caused by the rolling the dice, not the terrain. The test is indeed in the rules for assaulting models in cover, because outside of (more specific) special rules, that is the only time it would occur. Those (more specific) special rules state that the test is made, not that (terrain or) cover is changed.

Also, it is possible (though perhaps irrelevant) to assault models in cover without ever rolling the dice for dangerous OR difficult terrain, making that counter point awkward as well.

Exactly. I think that I've been half right and half wrong.
Right in that the unit being in cover really doesn't matter, it only matters if the assaulting unit is getting difficult or dangerous terrain tests.
Wrong in that the rule has two triggers that both has to "activate", not one clarification and one trigger.

Here's an example:

For instance, a 10 man IG conga line stands with 8 models in a forest (area terrain, difficult, 4+ cover). 2 models stand 1" (John) and 3" (Patrick) respectively from the edge. A troop of assault marines land 4" from the outter-most IG. In the shooting phase, they fire their Bolt Pistols on the squad, and since 8 of 10 are in cover the squad get the cover saves. Then, in the assault phase, the space marine unit proceed with assaulting.
Since the closest SM is able to get into contact with Patrick, the assault is valid, but since none of the other SM are able to even get into base contact with John, the SM never really makes a DT test and are therefore not penalized. The IG conga-line then moves in, and aren't penalised either (since that move isn't affected by DT) and you now have 10 very dead IG waiting to get killed before they can even do anything.

On the other hand, if those space marines had been a unit of cavalry with a charge range of 12", then they'd been able to get into contact with more IG in the woods, and would then be hitting at I1.

Agreed.

I think we're getting somewhere. As Kirsanth put it, the qualifiers are there.

The qualifier for I1 is rolling the dice.

The qualifier for grenades is "assaulting through cover".

In this rare case, the "rolling the dice" qualifier exists without the "assaulting through cover" qualifier.

Hence, the initiative is reduced, and, at the same time, not affected by grenades. But since a dangerous terrain test does not also preclude a difficult terrain test, there is no need to reduce movement.

Alright, it seems to me the question here boils down to if the dangerous terrain test caused by Spore Cloud is enough to make the rules for Assaulting Through Cover apply or not. I think puma has the right idea. Lets take a look at the specific wording one more time.

Assaulting Through Cover states that: "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models, any model in the assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."

This first part tells us when the difficult or dangerous terrain test should be taken (before moving) if the models moved through the terrain as part of its assault move.

Next, when talking about the disadvantages of assaulting through cover, it says: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking..."

This tells us that if any difficult or dangerous terrain tests were taken during the assault move, the initiative is lowered to 1.


Spore Cloud states: "...any non-vehicle enemy model that assaults one of these units must take a dangerous terrain test to represent the toxic effect of the spore cloud."

This tells us that all the models assaulting the spore cloud unit must take a dangerous terrain test (obviously).


Now, this tells us that (strictly RAW): The dangerous terrain test caused by Spore Cloud doesn't have a specific time that it has to be taken, because it was not caused by terrain. Since the test isn't necessarily being taken during the assault move, the models initiative is not reduced to 1.

Thats just silly, which is the problem with RAW. Now, if we apply a little common sense, we can assume that all terrain tests (difficult or dangerous) would be taken at the start of the movement phase, or assault move. With this small bit of common sense added, its obvious that:

A) the assaulting unit has its initiative value lowered to 1, as per the rules for assaulting into cover because it had to take a dangerous terrain test during its assault move
B) assault grenades would ignore the penalty to the initiative because the iniative has been reduced due to the "assaulting through cover" rule.

Leonus wrote:I think puma has the right idea.

Leonus wrote:
B) assault grenades would ignore the penalty to the initiative because the iniative has been reduced due to the "assaulting through cover" rule.[/b]

We were on the same page until that last sentence. I don't think grenades apply to this situation (unless that's what you meant by "ignore the penalty").

To clarify, the rule called "Assaulting Through Cover" causes the assaulting unit to have its initiative reduced. Assault grenades specifically say that they allow that unit to ignore the penalties from the rule "Assaulting Through Cover."

That is not clarification, that is basically wrong.

kirsanth wrote:That is not clarification, that is basically wrong.

Could you please quote the section of the rule book that refutes my clarification? I will repeat the relevant rule once more for your benefit.

-----------------------------

On page 36 of the rule book, there is a section called "Assaulting Through Cover" and it states "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking..."

Further down on the same page, there is a section called "Assault Grenades" and it states "...Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover, but fight as normal..."

I really don't see what your argument is here.


Spore Cloud says that assaulting units must take a dangerous terrain test. Assaulting Through Cover says that if a dangerous terrain test is taken when assaulting, it causes initiative to be reduced to 1. Assault Grenades says that if their initiative was reduced to 1 due to assaulting through cover, then the penalty does not apply.

Leonus, you're doing the same mistakes as I did.

Page 36
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangouers terrain as part of it's move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. This has two disadvantages. The first and most obvious <snip>

The second disadvantage is that warriors who are <and this is where your quote comes in>"

What you're referring to is a second disadvantage under the special circumstance of assaulting a unit and moving the assaulting unit's models through, into, or out of difficult terrain.

There is one, single, special case, and that is Eldar Pathfinders assaulting through terrain at a unit affected by spore cloud, Pathfinders whom ignore difficult terrain but do not ignore difficult terrain tests.

Mahtamori wrote:Leonus, you're doing the same mistakes as I did.

Page 36
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangouers terrain as part of it's move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. This has two disadvantages. The first and most obvious <snip>

The second disadvantage is that warriors who are <and this is where your quote comes in>"

What you're referring to is a second disadvantage under the special circumstance of assaulting a unit and moving the assaulting unit's models through, into, or out of difficult terrain.

There is one, single, special case, and that is Eldar Pathfinders assaulting through terrain at a unit affected by spore cloud, Pathfinders whom ignore difficult terrain but do not ignore difficult terrain tests.

I suppose I can see that distinction. So RAW would say that there would not be an initiative penalty in the first place, since for the Assaulting Through Cover rules to apply, ACTUAL terrain must be involved, not just tests. Agreed? (hurray for run-on sentences!)

The rules state that simply by virtue of taking (difficult or) Dangerous terrain tests, initiative penalties occur.

There is nothing in the assault grenade rules, however, that will influence assaults that are not assaulting through cover.

The venomethrope rules do not cause a model to move through cover. They simply force the check.


Interestingly off-topic, re-reading these rules makes me even more certain that dangerous terrain is intrinsicly difficult, as they imply that dangerous terrain may make it impossible to make base contact.

kirsanth wrote:
Interestingly off-topic, re-reading these rules makes me even more certain that dangerous terrain is intrinsicly difficult, as they imply that dangerous terrain may make it impossible to make base contact.

Not too sure, I think they just (for once) took into account that the closest guy might be 5" away die to Dang-T and the next is 7" at max cohearency voila failed assault.

kirsanth wrote:The rules state that simply by virtue of taking (difficult or) Dangerous terrain tests, initiative penalties occur.

There is nothing in the assault grenade rules, however, that will influence assaults that are not assaulting through cover.

The venomethrope rules do not cause a model to move through cover. They simply force the check.


Interestingly off-topic, re-reading these rules makes me even more certain that dangerous terrain is intrinsicly difficult, as they imply that dangerous terrain may make it impossible to make base contact.

As Mahtamori pointed out, the initiative reduction comes from the rule for Assaulting Through Cover. RAW says that if they aren't actually moving through real terrain, then none of the rules (including the initiative reduction) apply to the assault. If you decide to house rule that they would get the initiative penalty, then that penalty still comes from the Assaulting Through Cover rule, which grenades specifically ignore.

Leonus wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The rules state that simply by virtue of taking (difficult or) Dangerous terrain tests, initiative penalties occur.

There is nothing in the assault grenade rules, however, that will influence assaults that are not assaulting through cover.

The venomethrope rules do not cause a model to move through cover. They simply force the check.


Interestingly off-topic, re-reading these rules makes me even more certain that dangerous terrain is intrinsicly difficult, as they imply that dangerous terrain may make it impossible to make base contact.

As Mahtamori pointed out, the initiative reduction comes from the rule for Assaulting Through Cover. RAW says that if they aren't actually moving through real terrain, then none of the rules (including the initiative reduction) apply to the assault. If you decide to house rule that they would get the initiative penalty, then that penalty still comes from the Assaulting Through Cover rule, which grenades specifically ignore.

The initiative penalty comes from rolling the dice, not from any terrain that may or may not be involved.

Actual rule:

Assaulting through Cover
"if, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.This has two disadvantages.The first and most obvious is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. Note that if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if it rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.

The second disadvantage is that the warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers. Remember that assaulting models must try to engage as many enemies as possible - no holding back to avoid the test!"

It says the disadvantages apply when you go through difficult or dangerous terrain. So the first condition (moving through difficult or dangerous terrain) has to be met before the disadvantages can take place. If you read the venomthrope entry you will see it says that you have to take a dangerous terrain test. Nowhere does it say you are moving through dangerous terrain. So RAW you take a dangerous terrain test and nothing more. You can play it differently because you want it to work differently, but then you are houseruling it, not playing by the rules.

The disadvantages are as a consequence of taking the tests, which is in itelf a consequence of moving through cover. You can have the disadvantages without moving through terrain if you are forced to take the tests.

However all the disadvantages are linked directly to "assaulting through cover". So if you are not assaulting through cover the disadvantages do not kick in, even if you take the test.

The second disadvantage (I=1) hinges on 1 Assaulting through cover and 2 taking a difficult or dangerous terrain test. As the criteria of 1 are not met the disadvantage (I=1) does not kick in.



Although it probably is easier to just say this: The entry under the venomthrope is very clear. It says you take a dangerous terrain test if you assault the unit (or unit covered by the spores). So why are you looking for additional effects/rules under assaulting through cover if you aren't assaulting through cover in the first place.

Taking the test has the disadvantages, assaulting through cover is a trigger for taking the tests and nothing more. You are stating the disadvantages are contingent despite the language not supportng that interpretation.

Perhaps from a gramatical point of view you are correct (grammar never was my strong point). However you cannot dispute that all these disadvantages are all related to assaulting through cover.

Then again my other point still stands. Why you are looking under the assault through cover rules/effects? Nowhere does it state you are assaulting through cover, so why look for additional rules?

They are all disadvantages that occur in the assault phase and are triggered by taking a DT/Diff-T test. As such they are applicable.

DutchSage wrote:Actual rule:

Assaulting through Cover
"if, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.This has two disadvantages.The first and most obvious is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. Note that if a model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if it rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.

The second disadvantage is that the warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers. Remember that assaulting models must try to engage as many enemies as possible - no holding back to avoid the test!"

It says the disadvantages apply when you go through difficult or dangerous terrain. So the first condition (moving through difficult or dangerous terrain) has to be met before the disadvantages can take place. If you read the venomthrope entry you will see it says that you have to take a dangerous terrain test. Nowhere does it say you are moving through dangerous terrain. So RAW you take a dangerous terrain test and nothing more. You can play it differently because you want it to work differently, but then you are houseruling it, not playing by the rules.

I think this is the best argument against it so far. And understand what Leez was saying at the beginning of the thred: "Why are we even looking at the Assault Through Cover rules?" You're not assaulting through cover, so none of the disadvantage would apply, and therefore, grenades are a moot point.

Because that is where the rules for assaulting whiel taking a dangerous terrain test are.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because that is where the rules for assaulting whiel taking a dangerous terrain test are.

As others have stated, the Assaulting Through Cover section prefaces with the contingent that you are move THROUGH TERRAIN which causes the tests. Not just the tests on their own. If there isn't any actual terrain causing these tests, then the rest of the rules in that section do not apply. You can not have the disadvantages of assaulting through cover if you do not meet the requirements for the rules to apply(ACTUAL TERRAIN).

Except, uif you had read 4 posts up, yuo would see that there is no contingent requirement on being in cover - the disadvantages are for TAKING THE TESTS, and are NOT reliant on you assaulting through cover. Reread the rules, note that the "disadvantages" section places no reliance on this being part of cover, merely that you are taking the tests.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because that is where the rules for assaulting whiel taking a dangerous terrain test are.

Not necessarily. That's where the rules are if you are assaulting through cover. That second paragraph doesn't exist on its own. It's contingent on the first paragraph and all the qualifiers that stem from it. If you look at the rule as a whole, you see that to have your Initiative reduced to 1, you are privy to the second disadvantage of the rule. Well, how do you come to be disadvantaged? You must "assault through cover". While the Venomthrope causes you to make the dangerous terrain test, you didn't satisfy the qualifier for "assaulting through cover." You did, however, meet the qualifier for a Dangerous Terrain test, which is on a compleletly separate page, altogether removed from the assaulting through cover rules at all.

"the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.This has two disadvantages.The first and most obvious is that such tests might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy"

None of this is contingent on you assaulting through cover.