Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The best configuration for a captain is... Lysander.

Polonius wrote:I can't think of any reason to take any foot captain over sicarius. Yeah, you can build a pretty cheap cap with Relic blade, but for 70pts more you get 2+ armor, Fnp, a re-roll for seizing, a veteran skill for a tactical squad, Rites of battle, and a plasma pistol.

Because sometimes 70 points=a landspeeder/unit upgrades?

kenshin620 wrote:

Polonius wrote:I can't think of any reason to take any foot captain over sicarius. Yeah, you can build a pretty cheap cap with Relic blade, but for 70pts more you get 2+ armor, Fnp, a re-roll for seizing, a veteran skill for a tactical squad, Rites of battle, and a plasma pistol.

Because sometimes 70 points=a landspeeder/unit upgrades?

Yeah, but then why take the captain at all? I mean, I guess I don't see the utility of the captain on foot. Sicarius make my army better, and allows the purchase of a command squad. If you want to save points, buy a libby.

Polonius wrote:I can't think of any reason to take any foot captain over sicarius. Yeah, you can build a pretty cheap cap with Relic blade, but for 70pts more you get 2+ armor, Fnp, a re-roll for seizing, a veteran skill for a tactical squad, Rites of battle, and a plasma pistol.

The 70 points is over half the cost of a basic captain with relic blade or lightning claws, which is a pretty huge jump. While sicarius is impressive against unwounded MCs, he's does significantly less damage than the cheaper captain against 1 and 2 wound models, anyone immune to instant death, and walkers, and still dies to a single power fist (or similar) hit if he fails his 4+. Also, some people frown on taking any special characters, or two special characters, or especially two special characters technically from different armies, and some tournament rules or local conventions forbid some of thsoe. If you're looking to take Vulcan or Pedro or one of the other special characters in a high point game with that limitation, you can still take a regular captain.

So he costs a lot more, and in hand to hand survives better against basic infantry but kills fewer of them (so easier to tarpit), survives the same against power weapons, has an impressive instant-kill if it can work and the enemy has 3+ wounds, otherwise he does less damage. If you're taking a captain as a melee combatant, the regular captain does the job better and massively cheaper unless you're dueling ICs and MCs who are not immune to ID. He's a very nice character with good special rules, but you should choose him when you want those rules, he's not in competition with a normal captian.

Yeah, but then why take the captain at all? I mean, I guess I don't see the utility of the captain on foot. Sicarius make my army better, and allows the purchase of a command squad. If you want to save points, buy a libby.

You take a captain at all because he's the best melee model you can get (tied with FC), especially at the points. A 100pt librarian is massively worse than a 130pt captain at hand to hand, he's got inferior WS, I, A, and W plus no invulnerable save (If you buy terminator armor, he can't ride in a regular vehicle and costs more than the captain). Using the force sword requires forgoing other powers and isn't guaranteed, so the captain generally deals a lot more wounds (S6 or S4 w/ reroll) with his higher number of more accurate attacks. A librarian is pretty much a veteran sergeant who can be singled out but has two wounds, you take a librarian if you want his psychic powers, not as a point saving measure.

Polonius wrote:I can't think of any reason to take any foot captain over sicarius. Yeah, you can build a pretty cheap cap with Relic blade, but for 70pts more you get 2+ armor, Fnp, a re-roll for seizing, a veteran skill for a tactical squad, Rites of battle, and a plasma pistol.

Word.

Nurglitch wrote:

Polonius wrote:I can't think of any reason to take any foot captain over sicarius. Yeah, you can build a pretty cheap cap with Relic blade, but for 70pts more you get 2+ armor, Fnp, a re-roll for seizing, a veteran skill for a tactical squad, Rites of battle, and a plasma pistol.

Word.

+1

Word also.

Why not take the Special Character?

You might want a biker army, and Khan is near worthless

del'Vhar wrote:You might want a biker army, and Khan is near worthless

Lolwhut?

Really? I couldn't disagree more.

For the points, a regular captain is much better.

Furious Charge is only useful if you are also taking a Command Squad kitted out for melee imo, and by that point you are sinking a whole lot of points into it.

Outflanking is of questionable usefulness, I personally dont like to rely on a tactic that can end up with parts of my army entering the field on the wrong side at the wrong time.

And his wargear is meh at best. If his sword was a Relic Blade (Or even a power weapon) he would be worth the points to me, but its not, and his other perks dont appeal to me at all.

So to me, hes worthless; obviously you are not of the same opinion, which is fair

Furious charge can benefit a lot of units, LC termies(makes thunderhammers S9 too!), Vanguard, even regular assault marines will be a lot more potent with it.

"Moonfang: This in an ancient power sword..." Codex: Space Marines Page 94

I'm pretty sure a power sword is a power weapon, afterall the SM codex uses the two terms interchangeably in wargear entries. Also it's basically got super rending, which is gravy.
For 45 pts more than a basic captain w/power weapon he's a pretty good deal too.

Xeonicfront wrote:Furious charge can benefit a lot of units, LC termies(makes thunderhammers S9 too!), Vanguard, even regular assault marines will be a lot more potent with it.

"Moonfang: This in an ancient power sword..." Codex: Space Marines Page 94

I'm pretty sure a power sword is a power weapon, afterall the SM codex uses the two terms interchangeably in wargear entries. Also it's basically got super rending, which is gravy.
For 45 pts more than a basic captain w/power weapon he's a pretty good deal too.

There was a thread debating the Power Weapon thing a few days ago, either way I'd play it as a power weapon.

Given that I was talking about a biker list, running Khan with anything slower seems an odd choice, and most biker lists wont have assault marines (FA slots filled with either speeders or attack bikes)

It also makes Khan 205 points IIRC, and loses your army Combat Tactics, personally I'd rather have combat tactics than 1 squad with FA and Hit and Run.

As I said, I think hes worthless, if you dont thats fine; biker lists have a whole lot of other strengths and weaknesses beyond which HQ you take to make it.

I don't see how there's even a debate, it's phrased exactly as the other special characters weapons.

"Spear of Vulkan: This is a master-crafted relic blade"
"The Raven's Talons: These are a pair of master-crafted lightning claws"
"The Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists"
"Moonfang: This is an ancient power sword"

It's ancient, that's fluff. It's a power sword, that's clearly wargear. If an opponent tried to argue otherwise to me the army would go back in the bag.
I'll agree though, khan with bikers costs them combat tactics, can be quite essential for protecting them from being tarpitted if they get assaulted. It's a debate either way really, and I personally think he goes better with a mech list, bikers hardly need to outflank, and outflank is really what those extra points buy you.

Actually it is phrased differently.

The other examples are cut and dry.

Moonfang is confusing a little in that it adds a fluffy intro. The part of Moonfang's entry that is even relevant to the rules is that any roll to wound on a 6 would cause ID. So it's not IMO a PW. Not like he was useful to begin with but w.e....

Fluff and rules are not always the same thing.

And GW has difficulty differentiating(the Difference)between Rules and Fluff(Canis Wolfborn and Fagir anyone?).

Look at Dorn's Arrow on Pedro; has the same fluffy intro("this is an ancient and venerated Storm Bolter", then the rules come in giving you a Profile far different from a Storm Bolter)

Then we also have Telion's Stalker Pattern Boltgun which Can be fired with the special profile(meaning he is physically capable of firing it in this manner, but still does not necessarily restrict permission to Fire it as a standard Boltgun); and includes a fluff description(much the same as Moonfang) telling you how awesome his boltgun is, but lacking any rules onto itself.

Ulrik the Slayer has the Wolfhelm of russ that has a lengthy Fluff intro and then Clear rules.

Arjack Rockfist also has a lengthy Fluff intro then moves on to the actual rules.

Finally we get to Canis and his mount Fangir; the very first sentence fragment is that Fangir is a "monsterous Thunderwolf"(an available piece of wargear), the remainder of the sentence is pure fluff. Actually the whole paragraph is essentially fluff because the rules portion tells you Fangir improves the Profile but not How Fangir improved the profile. So we have no idea what benefits Fangir provided to Canis; nor if there are any restrictions(as with the Thunderwolf mount).

Khan does not have a Power Sword(and it is certainly not a relic Blade) because the rules do not say he does. If you claim that because the Fluff intro says Moonfang is a Power Sword; then it must also be a relic blade(the same sentence says it is a relic) and those are 2 different weapons(although a Relic Blade "counts as a Power Weapon", there is actually no rules for a "power Sword", RAW. So technically no model in the Space marine army that has a "Power Sword" has any weapon that does anything special at all)

Lets not get into Khan, start another topic if you will.
Khan is a noob and a Captain unlocking scoring bikers while being cheaper when kitted cheaply is awesome, dare I say best as you have more points to spend on......MOAR SPECIAL WEAPON BIKERS!

Furious charge can benefit a lot of units, LC termies(makes thunderhammers S9 too!), Vanguard, even regular assault marines will be a lot more potent with it.

Khan on a BIKE came up.
It's somewhat annoying to plan on joining Khan with LC termies out of a Raider to then charge in to get the S9 bonus.
Kahn can run with Vanguard/Assault marines, but it's just....wierd, and somewhat limiting Khan instead funny enough.

IMO, you'll get more out of Khan at higher points games. Lower points... go with the cheaper option IMO.

I guess I've never considered the basic captain a decent enough HtH unit to really be worth buying on his own. Maybe I'm wrong there. that's why I'm so dismissive of them. I like Siccy because he helps the rest of my army, Chaplains because they make a unit hit much, much harder, and libbies because they are great cheap support characters. Even Masters of the Forge bring shooting, improved cover, and Heavy support Dreadnoughts.

The captain brings three S6 attacks. True they'll usually hit on 3's, but I've never seen it as that valuable. I guess I can see a pretty bare bones captain working out.

Polonius wrote:The captain brings three S6 attacks. True they'll usually hit on 3's, but I've never seen it as that valuable. I guess I can see a pretty bare bones captain working out.

You forgot at initiative 5 (which kills most things before they swing), and he survives a whole lot more damage than the no-invulnerable librarian. Also, for just 30 points more than you pay for Sicarius I can take a basic Captain AND a librarian or chaplain. If you have to melee down one of those 2-300 point super characters, a librarian or chaplain stands basically no chance and will probably die without swinging, while the captain stands a decent chance and at least gets to take his swings, and isn't affected by some special defenses that that make sarges, dreds, and 'lots of regular guys' ineffective (FNP, 2+ normal save, immune to ID). A thunderhammer terminator squad will also deal with super characters, but it's more expensive and more unwieldy. I've lost a few games from thinking that my chaplain or librarian could do like 3rd ed and stand up to (if not always beat) a super-character, and they really can't anymore.

Of course, after talking about Sicarius this much I'm probably going to try a list using him, a melta-packing tac squad riding in on the enemy's board edge sounds like fun.

Okay I'm going for a straight up vanilla captain, no frills or whistles. PW + BP and Iron Halo.



and I might even use another model with a BP + Chainsword for a 100pt Walmart special cheap as they come captain.

That's a horrible return for a 100 point investment.
At least a libby has a giant bubble of no spells and supporting powers and COMES STOCK with a power weapon.

Hell a Chappy comes stock with a power weapon and same INV and other supporting buffs.

A Captain brings what at 100 points? An extra wound to absorb random shooting? Ok, whatever floats the boat.

I don't want to hijack a thread here, but i'm kinda wondering about all this captain stuff myself, do i field a captain counts as Lysander or build my own using the information gleaned from within this thread? should i use an existing captain? who would have the greatest advantages in your opinions?

Grey Knight Grand Master.

Terminator Armor, S6 Force Weapon (that ignores EW), Storm Bolter, 4 base attacks, plus you have the option to give him a psychic hood (with unlimited range).

Oh, and he's cheaper than a Captain with a Relic Blade/Artificer.

nerdfest09 wrote:I don't want to hijack a thread here, but i'm kinda wondering about all this captain stuff myself, do i field a captain counts as Lysander or build my own using the information gleaned from within this thread? should i use an existing captain? who would have the greatest advantages in your opinions?

If you're dead set on using a Captain, Lysander is great.

That strength 10 Thunderhammer is absolutely brutal, and his other perks are neat as well. If you aren't going to use a special character I'd go with one of the other HQ options, with the exception of the Bike Captain to use bikes as troops. I like Khan, but YMMV.

nerdfest09 wrote:I don't want to hijack a thread here, but i'm kinda wondering about all this captain stuff myself, do i field a captain counts as Lysander or build my own using the information gleaned from within this thread? should i use an existing captain? who would have the greatest advantages in your opinions?

It depends on what you want to do. If you just want a killer in close combat then lysander is great. The issue with lysander is getting him to the target - he has terminator armor so that restricts his mobility options. You can make an ok captain out of the basic codex options. Unless you want to give him a bike or a jump pack you're better off just taking vulkan, since even without his chapter tactics ability (which is ofcourse awesome) he's a pretty good buy. He carries a ton of wargear, he's a good fighter, he's more resilient than most of the hq choices in the book, and he doesnt have lysander's mobility issues. Of course if you're going to buy him you'd mineaswell go all the way and get good use out of his chapter tactics ability, which means lots of flamers and meltas. You dont have to build your army around his ability, but if you want to make the most competitive army possible you really ought to. AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

nerdfest09 wrote:I don't want to hijack a thread here, but i'm kinda wondering about all this captain stuff myself, do i field a captain counts as Lysander or build my own using the information gleaned from within this thread? should i use an existing captain? who would have the greatest advantages in your opinions?

It depends on what you want to do. If you just want a killer in close combat then lysander is great. The issue with lysander is getting him to the target - he has terminator armor so that restricts his mobility options.

In only restricts his ability to ride in Rhinos and Razorbacks.

Land Raiders, Teleporting and Drop Pods are just fine. I wouldn't really call it an "issue", any more than any other Terminator at least.

Land Raiders increase the cost of the package, which can be seen as an issue.

'Porting in means you are leaving their arrival time to dice+1, '+1' being that you can't charge in so that's at least combat at turn 3 the earliest with turn 4 being more likely.

Podding in is nice, though it's not everybodies cup of tea...at the very least coming in turn 1 is UNdesirable by some players/lists.

I'd probably prefer artificer armour on a captain just for ease of movement but like the op are unsure as to what would be a good kit out for a captain who needs to be good in cc and still be flexible? i'll still make my own terminator cap and use Lysanders rules but for smaller games?......

Monster
yes like I said it restricts his options. Is it a huge issue? If you're drop podding or using a land raider anyway no. Do you want to buy this stuff just to move lysander around? Sure hope not. Land Raiders are expensive. Drop pods have the issue of getting seperated from the rest of the force. Doesnt matter what you pack into it, a single drop pods worth of guys vs the whole enemy army should get squashed in 1 turn. Big waste. AF

AF is correct, i personnally think 3 Drop pods minimum if you don't want to go down in one turn (One with a Dreadnought, the other sternguard and A-Nother unit).

My take on TDA is that it is ok if you have a Heavy Weapons unit (RELENTLESS is pretty good). However RELENTLESS is crap for a CC Character as you cannot perform a sweeping advance. I have dropped my TDA Captain for a Mk7 Armour + Artificer Armour Upgrade = Same protection (+4 Inv with Iron Halo) and then he can then perform a sweeping advance. This if coupled with say 2 lightening claws gives you a unit with good initiative, a load of attacks, 2+ Armour Save and a +4 inv. The downside being his Lightening claws & AA are not cheap. Lysander is a murderous character, and his Chapter Tactics are brilliant, I don't like Termie Armour on any CC monster though for the same reason as above. That said if you want to kill a Titan, Lysanders Apocalypse Titan Hammer Squad is like a big bag of "OH F*CK" for the Enemy to deal with!

My Captain which I used to run was artificer armour, storm shield & relic blade - made a S6 Assault Terminator who can sweeping advance!

Could add in aux grenade launcher for some fire power maybe and if you want to go and get extra toughness then a bike, though would cost a packet.

Captains can be shooty too. Give them a storm bolter/combi weapon, hellfire rounds an an auxilliary launcher. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems like a lot of damage for one turn.