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Hi

I am going to post how I'd like to see a 5th edition Chaos rule set from a structural point of view. The thing is with Chaos is that the fluff is so creative that it is too easy to make an unbalanced rule set due to the infinite amount of wargear/unit possibilities.
I used an equivalency system based off the current 5th edition MEQ books when writing this and I reckon it gives a lot of freedom and creativity within a balanced structure.

HQ
0-1 Daemon Prince
• 0-1 to help emphasis the rarity and power of Daemon Princes (the don't grow on trees lol)
• 5th edition CSM princes would be considerably more powerful than the current CSM princes and would have access to a bucket load of options similar to the current princes in the Daemons Codex
Chaos Lord
• Similar to the current CSM lord but with more of a customisable feel ALA Wolf Lord.
Chaos Lieutenant
• 2 wound budget HQ (similar to the Wolf Guard Battle Leader)
• Would not have access to prestigious wargear like daemon weapons.
Sorcerer
• Crafted similar to a librarian where powers are chosen and not purchased. Unsure if sorcerer would be 3 wound or 2
Dark Apostle
• 2 wound HQ similar to a Chaplain but with Chaos specific rules
Warsmith
• 2 wound HQ similar to a techmarine but with Chaos specific rules

Elites
Chosen
• Would be A2 and fearless as standard.
• Would have similar wargear options to current chosen
• Could pay additional points to upgrade to terminators
• Unit able to function as a retinue as per 40k retinue rules.
Possessed Marines
• Wouldn't suck
Dreadnaught
• Crazed would be removed and replaced with a random USR table similar to current possessed. Players roll on the table once per game at the start of the match before deployment. Items on the table would either be positive (like Furious Charge, Fleet, +1 BS) or do nothing (no bonus/bread for you)
• Havoc launchers and daemonic possession would also be upgrades
Dreadnaught Sorcerer
• Pyker dreadnaught. Would have less wargear upgrades/options than the regular dreadnaught.
• Would not be crazed

Troops
Chaos Space Marine Battle squad (Yes Nurglitch I stole your idea...it was delicious. Kudos by the way)
• Operates like the current vanilla CSM troop choice. Either comes with or gets to choose a USR similar in nature to combat tactics or the current BA/SW stuff. I'm personally thinking stubborn (not groundbreaking as Lysander armies currently get this)
0-1 Khorne Bezerkers
• 0-1 unless army contains a HQ contains a HQ with MoK
• 0-1 Limits synergy so point penalties do not have to be placed on other units/options
0-1 Plague Marines
• 0-1 unless army contains a HQ contains a HQ with MoN
• 0-1 Limits synergy so point penalties do not have to be placed on other units/options
0-1 Noise Marines
• 0-1 unless army contains a HQ contains a HQ with MoS
• 0-1Limits synergy so point penalties do not have to be placed on other units/options
0-1 Thousand Sons
• 0-1 unless army contains a HQ contains a HQ with MoT
• 0-1 Limits synergy so point penalties do not have to be placed on other units/options

Fast Attack
Raptors
• Would have hit and run
Bikers
• 25 points a piece
Fast Attack daemons
• Cheap expendable killy cavalry style unit

Heavy Support
Havocs
Obliterators
Noise Havocs
• Similar to noise marines expect up to 4 models can upgrade to a blast master instead of 1

Vanilla Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader/Chaos LR variant with 16 model transport capacity.
• Chaos needs a high model transport

Summoned Daemons
Lesser Daemons
• Customisable with marks and stuff
0-2 Greater Daemon
• Increased to 0-2 to maintain/extenuate monster mash builds
• Has access to marks and basic upgrades (like wings)

Candy man. Continue. Seriously. NOW!

One thing id like to see that hasnt already been said by Candy Man is:

Chaos Spawn: 40pts
1-5 per unit
WS -2
BS -0
S -5
T -5
W -3
I -3
A -2D3
LD10(Fearless)

Special Rules:
Daemonkin (see possessed)
Fearless
Mindless (except they dont chase vehicles!)
Feel no Pain
Maybe throw some rending in here?

Distraction: Chaos Spawn are often used as distractions - being sent into the open in the hopes of drawing fire away from other squads with more importaint things to do. Chaos Spawn cost 40pts per model. You may include any number of chaos spawn models in your force, and hey do not take up a FoC slot. All Spawn must be put into as few units as possible. Chaos Spawn are never scoring units. They never provide Victory points or Kill points regardless of the situation.

@candy.man: I agree with you on everything apart for the DP's. Personally I think it should be no Limit BUT if you take 2 DP's as HQ's then you can only select 1 Summoned Greater Daemon not 2. That way it still stays at 3 MC's max but allows you to make more of a descision. I personally think Sorcerers should have 3 wounds.

grayspark wrote:+1 armor? No way.. then every army would have to have that to be fair...

They used to have it and no one else did. Basically the Daemon Codex usurped a lot of the fluff from the old CSM codex. My primary point of contention was with Defilers. Old codex could take the options to up the armor for a cost with I believe a limit of 14 no matter what. Lo and behold they took that option out of the new CSM codex and then made a Soulgrinder that mimics a Defiler and built-in has 13 armor. So no GW does not have to be fair.

To go off on the "fair" subject they don't balance the codexes on a line-for-line basis and should not. I don't argue that SW get some weapons free or can field 33 pt terminators or that SM have options to field 6 dreadnoughts or that BA can field librarian dreadnoughts. What I really begrudge is when basic stuff costs the same or more from codex to codex with dated lesser versions straightjacketed into the GW "The codex always rules" limits.

DA, BT, DH Landraiders: Machine spirit has BS2 and can't be used at higher speeds. True reason their codex is dated. Given reason the codex always rules.
SM, BA, SW Landraiders: Machine spirit has BS4.
CSM: No machine spirit but a wonderful "discount" of 30 points for a now overpriced vehicle with 3 big weapons that can transport assault troops but if it moves more than 6" can't fire more than one weapon. (Excepting a combi-bolter.)

I don't know why you're wanting Chaos to have Dreadnaughts like that...

A 6 Dreadnaught army not only costs a lot of points (and money) but it is also ineffective at times...

and Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnaughts kinda suck in my experience...

They get popped in CC by things with higher initiative or long ranged weapons...

If an emperor's children dread with a blastmaster (forgeworld) suffers a crazed roll and fires at a squad of noise marines are they affected or imune?

Hahaha, that's a good question.

and yes they are, because the sound causes destruction most of the time, it doesn't JUST burst the eardrums.

Just to begin with something, I'll just make some proposed rules here...

Dark Apostle Cost: 100
WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv3+
Unit type: Infantry
Number/Squad: 1
Wargear:
Power Armour
Accursed Crozius
Bolt Pistol or Bolter
Frag+Krak Grenades

Special Rules:
Fearless
Independent Character
Priest of the Dark Gods

Options:
May replace Bolt Pistol/Bolter with one of the following:
Plasma Pistol for 15 pts
Power Fist for 25 pts
Twin.linked Bolter for 5 pts
Combi-weapon for 10 pts
Take melta bombs: 5 pts

May replace Power armour, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades for Terminator Armour and
a Twin-linked bolter: 30 pts
a Combi-weapon: 35 pts

If Terminator armour is not chosen, may take one of the following:
Jump Pack/Wings for 20 pts
Bike for 30 pts

Special Rules
Accursed Crozius:
This is a Power Weapon that also counts as a Personal Icon.

Priest of the Dark Gods:
The Dark Apostle has 4+ Invulnerable save. In addition, all friendly units within 6" of the Dark Apostle may re-roll failed morale checks.

I really like the fluff behind the Word Bearers, so I would love o see something like this in the next codex. What do you think?
Though if they should be able to use their daemons, then the lesser/greater daemons would need a big rewrite. Should they be able to use allies from the CD codex, like daemonhunters?

The Dread is bad,,,,i have a solution! and after bringing this baby to a few games, it allways gets props..

he is taken from my Chaos Traitor spacecrusade army(nice touch ay, its the "hot Rod" of army's all old school and cool!!.

Take 1 SPACE CRUSADE DREAD, strap ork dread arms to him..

Call him - what ever name, But he is a Possessed Demon Dread(from one of those space crusade hulks, ged it!!)

Take away the crazed rule, instead he has to be summoned like a Greater Demon.. This can be played with, in my codex homebrew rules he is a greater demon, but my nephew has him as a special character..

The Terminators are a pain, but lets not forget that as CSM there is allot more room to customize then other codexes....

bucketwalrus wrote:Ioh yea.... Death company. cost less then berzerkers. they have prefered enemy and fleet and furious charge and FNP... and counter attack... HOLY gak WTF

Death Company aren't scoring, don't have Preferred Enemy, don't have Fleet and don't have Counter Attack. They also have Rage which is a huge impediment. If you're playing against DC as you describe then I'd have a talk with your opponent because you're being cheated.

Dear Gw,
Please Update the points cost in CSM 3.5, add the good from the "new" codex, and release to the public.

We do not need another bloody SM codex before this.

Signed,
Every Chaos player who didn't start 40k with the Bland dex.

Great to see this thread still going. Hopefully more people will continue to submit their ideas on how a 5th edition Chaos Codex would look like. I’d now like to post how I’d reckon 5th edition Chaos special characters would look like.

Abaddon
• Cost would probably remain the same, maybe even a few points cheaper.
• Daemon weapon would probably be reworked to be less destructive but more reliable. Personally I’d like to see some like done in the same fashion as the Skulltaker. Something like a str 6 rending power weapon (where rending = ID), re-rolling to wounds rolls.
• I’d definitely see Abaddon conferring a beneficial USR to his unit in the same fashion as Logan Grimnar, such as stubborn or furious charge.

Fabius
• Rod of torment changed to a 4+ poisoned power weapon
• Enhanced Warriors rule also applying to Raptors, Bikers and Havocs.
• The Chirurgeon applying his old 4++ save instead of his current +2A & FNP

Huron
• I see Huron’s role evolving to more of a “utility lord/jack of all trades”. I see this fulfilled by Huron gaining access to Orbital bombardment, just like his FW counterpart rules.

Kharn
• I see Kharn gaining access to some sort of unit buff like Ragnar Blackmane or at the very least, Eternal Warrior (makes sense when you read Kharn’s fluff).

Typhus
• Manreaper probably reworked to make it more nurglish.
• Typhus gaining access to FNP.

Aramahn
• I see Aramahn having access to some kind of pimp psychic hood/talisman of tzeetnch.

Lucius the Eternal
• I see his role changed to more of a fast and tactful CC role instead of his current suicide armour of souls bombardment role . I probably reckon this could be fulfilled by making his Lash of Torment more potent.
• Lucius’ old Martial Pride rule being reworked for 5th edition and restored.

Cypher the Fallen Angel
• I see him returning as an upgrade character for a unit of chosen. His previous rule set in White Dwarf would pretty much fit in well.

Doomrider
• I see him returning as a summoned Daemon unit (i.e. players can summon 0-1 Doomrider and he does not take up a force organisation slot)
• As an owner of the Codex Doomrider appears in, I can say his previous rule set would fit in well (costed for 5th edition mind you). I can see his initiative raised to 7 (as he is a daemon prince).

grayspark wrote:I don't know why you're wanting Chaos to have Dreadnaughts like that...

A 6 Dreadnaught army not only costs a lot of points (and money) but it is also ineffective at times...

and Blood Angel Librarian Dreadnaughts kinda suck in my experience...

They get popped in CC by things with higher initiative or long ranged weapons...

Ahh...the statement was made in response to a statement that the old codex +1 to all armor (Max 14) upgrade for vehicles is OP and therefore all armies should then have it.
I brought this up as a quick example, I don't WANT 6 dreads but I reject a statement that if one codex provides something good it needs to be shared to all the other codexes.
That should be part of the reason to build one army over another. Not OP or unbalanced but something that one codex allows you to exploit albeit with some off-setting loss in another area.

It is not OP to up a Defiler to FA/SA 13 and RA 11. As I recall the cost was 25-50 and it also precluded any carrying capacity so it was limited to Defilers, Dreadnoughs and Predators in the old codex and would now add a Vindicator to that list.

I agree they get popped in CC but armor 13 means you only get popped by true AT weapons not autocannons, plasma, etc.

My basic philosophy is anything to make other options more competitive in a CSM codex is good. I don't want to see HQs being just DPs because lords and sorcerers just aren't worth it. I don't want to see armies of Nurgle marines for troops just because they are the most cost efficient troop choice in the game. Finally I want other heavy options to be playable other than obliterators.

They may remain beneficial but give players a reason to play 1000 sons or not spam obliterators or whatever.

Here are some things I have said before and I will add something new, too.

Crazed: This rule makes Chaos Dreads almost non existant, so I think it should be changed a little. At the begining of the game it functions as normal, and then you can CHOOSE to unleash it's fury for the rest of the game, with a modified chart: 1-2 = Fire Frenzy, 3-4 = normal, 5-6 = Blood Frenzy. So you have more control, and yet at the same time, less.

Blood Disciple: Basically, a Khorne only HQ. He has "Psychic powers", but they aren't actually powers, more of various frenzies. "Bathing in Blood" allows him to (as long as you pass a "psychic test" for some reason or another, I'll let you guys decide) make an additional attack for every unsaved wound he causes, "Blood Letting" makes him kill his enemies in the goriest way possible, causing enemy units to have -1 LD for every unsave wound he inflicts for that turns combat resolution. (note that he would have to buy these skills like a "normal" psycker)

New Psychic Power: Warp: The Sorcerer, and any unit he is apart of, fades into the Warp, only to reappear elsewhere. Remove the unit and immediately redeploy them Via Deepstrike. Note that this is a teleport via the Warp, and follows the rules for Icons (As in, doesn't scatter within 6" of an Icon.)

I do agree, that the Codex: Chaos space marines needs a revamp.....

But i think ill list some things that i think they have that you should be happy they have since other Codexs that are newer dont have anything like it....

Obliterators. Seriously? Friggin awesome. yeah they are costy but they LITERALLY have any weapon you need for the job, are hard to kill for two wound terminators.

DP, This demon prince is pretty much better then the Codex Chaos daemons DP, for a few reasons, first its an HQ choice now....not a heavy, second lash of submission? Pair that with Obliterators + Vindicator? BAM!

Plaguemarines. Best. Troop. In. Game. 3+ armour? Feel no pain? T5? Whhhhhats bad about them? you dont have to buy a special Elite or something to give them FNP? 23 points?

Abbadon is broken still. on a one, he stabs himself? soooo what? id take the chance to have 5-11 str 8 attacks rerolling wounds at a high int and high ws anyday of the week. Get abby into CC and he generally 1/6th of the time, which for you mathheads out there is alot more thern 1/6 of the time, wrecks an entire unit solo.

Daemonic Possesion, your defiler and vindicator can still shoot? they just ignore stun/shaken? yes please!

Marks of the Chaos gods....seriously? do i need to specify? they do great things

i know i said plague marines, but Thousand sons, Noise marines, Berserkers get a special mention, still some of the best troops ever.


Summoned Deamons/greater deamons, while not the best option in the world, offer a great deal of tactical oppertunites.



Like i said, the book does need to be brought into the new edition of the game, but it is NO where near bottom or even bad!

Make the codex not one "auto best build"

Just talking HQs:

DP is basically a beast as is and is now the default choice.

CL: Make a chaos lord provide some benifit. Perhaps unlocking like chaos mark troops in the army at a discount or going back to the previous codex. Full mark benefits to non-troop choices.

Sorcerer: In the now very deadly psyker environment, make the sorc allowed to use 2 ablilities a turn. (3 if MoT)
Give them some anti-psyker attack as I proposed before -
some active attack on an opposing psyker when they try activating an ability rather than a passive psychic hood knock off.

As characters go, I would like to see Arkos the Faithless or an Alpha Legion character anyway in the next codex. Maybe something like this:
WS: 6 BS: 5 S:4(6) T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 LD:10 SV:3+
Unit Type: Infantry Unit Composition: One (Unique)
Wargear: Power Armour, Dark Blade, Combi-Melta, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades.
Special Rules: Fearless, 5+ Invulnerable Save, Nondecript, Infiltrate, Devious.
Nondecsript: If attached to a squad, Arkos may not be targeted, even by special abilities such as Mind War and Torrent of Fire.
Devious: An army led by Arkos may reroll the dice to choose which side to deploy on.
I was thinking maybe somewhere around the 200-225 points mark?
As you can tell I've read Imperial Armour.

I think Marks of the Gods should effect units differently, and certain marks are unavailable on certain units.

Mark of Nurgle:
Havocs: Slow and Purpousful, FnP
CSM: FnP, Always count as moving in difficult terrain.
Predators: Parasitic Possession (repairs Immobolized or Weapon Destroyed results on a 4+), Lumbering Behemoth (the thing that makes Lemon Russes move only 6+d6)
Raptors can not take the MoN

Mark of Khorne:
Havocs can not take MoK
CSM: Fleet, +1 attack
Predators: Steamrolla's
Raptors: Furious Charge, +1 attack

Stuff like that. Also, with this, bring back the whole Gods don't get along rules, and Chaos would be Golden.

If gods did not get along there better be some serious benifits for taking mono-god lists (every unit gains +1 toughness/armor if everything in the army has the mark of nurgle) for example