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Rascon wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I run a 2 Blood Claw list that is very Assualty Without TWC or Terminators.

Yeah, two Land Raiders sounds fun, I guess, but meh.

Actualy it is a Foot Slogger list with 3 Grey Hunter, and 2 Blood Claws as the Core.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Because, the libby and reclusiarch while not as good as the captain in CC, makes their units so much better that it doesn't matter.

So they're HUGE force multipliers.

And you do not win by having the best HQ, you win by having the best army.

I know. The logical part of my brain says that BAs are probably a better fit for what I'm looking for. The reptilian "ooh shiny" part likes the hard-as-nails badassery of the SW HQ units while hating every inch of the BA HQ section.

It's tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:

Rascon wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:I run a 2 Blood Claw list that is very Assualty Without TWC or Terminators.

Yeah, two Land Raiders sounds fun, I guess, but meh.

Actualy it is a Foot Slogger list with 3 Grey Hunter, and 2 Blood Claws as the Core.

You WALK 50 MEQs across the board?

That wouldn't fly in the meta around here.

Rascon wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Rascon wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:eh. theres only 1 captain for every 100 guys. he cant be everywhere. librarians are legit. personally I get tired of seeing so many heroes in the game. Vulkan can only be at 1 place at 1 time for christs sake.
AF

That's largely why I don't use SCs.

Captains are just one of those weird must-haves for me.

cant you just run a reclusiarch and say "Hes a really REALLY inspiring captain, NOT a chaplain"

Ha! No more than I can run TWC without Thunderwolves and claim they're just guys who can sprint really fast, unfortunately.

I mean, seriously; why do BAs, the most assault-focused SM codex out there, not get a decent CC Captain?

Ok thats a bit of a stretch.

I think a better comparison would be say using Juggernauts of Khorne as thunder wolves. Both are large mounts at least.

BA assault squad - 215 pts 9 dudes plus sargent with P-fist

Grey Hunters - 218 points. 9 dudes, powerweapon, standard, MOTW, PAWG with p-fist.

Since the BA have jump packs, we will give them the charge. We will also be nice and assume either they got red thirst or have a sang priest near by. By this account we will also assume the wolf player pops the banner and made his LD 9 check for counter charge.

BA charge - 27 attacks - 13.5 hits - 8.91 wounds - 2.71 failed armor saves after reroll of 1s because of banner.

6.29 non special grey hunters strike back
18.87 attacks - 10.93 hits (including banner) - 6.33 wounds (including banner) - 1.04 failed saves (after FNP re-roll)
1 power weapon wielding GH strikes
3 attacks - 1.79 hits (including banner) - 1.093 wounds (including banner, no armor or FNP save)
1 Mark of the Wolfen
5.5 attacks (I don't know how to do the math on the banner help on this so we will just use average roll) - 3.19 hits (including banner) - 1.71 wounds (.27 rending no save) - .23 unsaved wounds after armor and FMP saves.)

So before P-fists the BA have killed - 2.71 models. The SW have killed - 2.63 models.

Now the WG and sarge go.

BA sarge - 3 attacks - 1.5 hits - 1.245 wounds
PAWG - 3 attacks - 1.74 hits (after banner) - 1.67

So at the end of combat BA have killed 3.95 models and the SW have killed 4.37 models

Technically the SW won that round. Now into the second round, BA no longer have FC so they no longer go first and no longer wound on 3s but still have FNP and the P-fist sarge. The SW no longer have the banner, but still have squad MOTW, a power weapon, and the p-fist PAWG.

Also if for some reason the BA didn't get the charge, the GH would own them out right.

But as you can see from my above units it really is a pretty even fight and thats the way it should be. However, the BA depends on a few outside factors more than the SW do. Red thrist is a 1/6 chance and you need a priest around to get FNP. GH are pretty self contained. Yeah your just as likely to get a 1 as a 6 on your MOTW guy, and you do need to pass an LD check to get counter charge.

However, I've found that Grey hunters are pretty much the same all game long. BA squads are expensive marines after that first round of combat.

Now, I'm not trying to tote the SW horn here. Both of the above squads will fold to heavier hitters like Berzerkers, pimped out chosen, assault termies and the like.

But if you believe that SW can't assault or at least keep up with the more apparently assaulty stuff in the universe, your in for a surprise.

Competitive: blood angels

Fluff: Puppies.

Want to be an ass? TWC.

Want a "Hammer"? 10 TH/SS Terminators with Terminator sanguinary priest. Dont need a LR if you deepstrike them, But if you want an LR, Im guessing your looking at the 800 points range.

Or you could just take a captain with thunder hammer...thats a hammer..isnt it?

Alright, there's only one way to solve this.

I'm asking you to go above and beyond, Dakka.

The first request: An 1850 Space Wolves list that includes a Wolf Lord, does NOT include special characters or Thunderwolf Cavalry, and is assault oriented. Bonus if you find a way to make Skyclaws not suck.

The second request: An 1850 Blood Angels list that includes a vanilla Captain, does NOT include special characters, and is assault oriented. Bonus if you go non-mech.

The reward? It's awesome. I can't tell you what it is right now, but trust me, it's awesome.

Is it a cookie?

I'm not a space puppies player btw and I personally would use a Rune Priest any day or night, but here goes!

Wolf Lord w/ Runic armor; SS; Frost Blade; Saga of the Bear
210
Rune Priest
100

5x WG: 3x PF;3x combi-melta; 1x Frost Blade w/ JP; 1x termie with CML
255
5x Wolf Scouts: Meltagun; melta bombs
110

8x GH w/ MG; PW; Standard; MotW; Rhino
200
8x GH w/ MG; PW; Standard; MotW; Rhino
200
8x GH w. MG; PW; Standard; MotW; Rhino
200

7x Skyclaws w/ MG; PF; MotW (they still suck...)
176

6x Long Fangs: 5x ML TL-LC razorback
215
6x Long Fangs: 5x ML; TL-LC razorback
215

TOTAL=1851 (Eh, sue me)

The WG split up into each pack, the Lord goes with one of the GH units (note: if you want him with the skyclaws, just take away a long fang). CML termie goes with the long fangs obviously, and the priest can go anywhere he pleases. I would stick Living Lighting and JOTWW on him.

Skyclaws, go behind the rhino wall and eat scooby snacks while they wait to nomnomnom.

Long Fangs and their razorbacks make up most of your long range fire power. You could drop the LC and get some HB for anti-horde. Well, anyways my attempt. Probably a fail one.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Well, anyways my attempt. Probably a fail one.

It's not terrible, and it's actually about what I came up with, though I did find points for a Rune Priest. The problem is, it's basically a vanilla codex list. It's got one alright but highly specialized assault unit (scouts), and one terrible assault unit (Skyclaws), and everything else is happier standing and shooting.

Which leads me to the conclusion that SW aren't, in fact, an assault army; they're a shooting army that shrugs if you assault them, but will just bolter you to death if you don't.

That really is what they are, they shoot well and can take a charge pretty well. They make a 12" bubble of death.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:That really is what they are, they shoot well and can take a charge pretty well. They make a 12" bubble of death.

Then I demand that GW give them the craptastic BA HQ choices and throw the combat god Wolf Lords to the Blood Angels.

Then I can finally stop trying to pick.

So you want BA with a decent captain: call your Librarian the psychy captain and your Reclusiarch the holy captain and go play.

- HQ
Wolf Lord Jump Pack Wolf Claw x2 Runic Armor Belt of Russ Saga of Warrior Born

Wolf Priest Jump Pack

Ruin Priest x1

- Elites -

Wolf Guard x3 Pfist x3 Combi melta x3

- Troops -
Grey Hunters x8 MOTW Wolf Standard Melta Gun x1 Rhino

Grey Hunters x10 MOTW wolf Standard Melta gun x2

Bloodclaws x12 Melta-gun


- Fast Attack -
Skyclaws x8 P-fist

Heavy Support
LandRaider Crusader Multi-Melta

Landraider Redeemer Multi-Melta


This is a twin LR assault list. You stick a PAWG in each Grey Hunter unit and bloodclaw unit. The Ruin Priest goes in the rhino and his two powers are JOWW and Tempests Wraith. Both the Lord and Wolf Priest go in the Skyclaw unit and advance behind the LR wall. Now the sky claws don't suck since their WS3 wont effect the Lord or Priest and since the lord is killing 4-5 models on I5, there wont be that many return swings. And if for some reason the enemy is still alive the next turn the Lord will get a stupid number of attacks next assault phase.

Its a multiple threat list. If the redeemer gets to the enemy lines it will roast stuff. The crusader with the BCs is scary. Everything can assault on the turn it wants too.

A duel raider list is something you have to want to play though. A lot of people don't like how fragile they can be, but there are other lists that just can't deal with them at all.

You are being really difficult to answer here. On one hand you say you don't much care for competitiveness and wanna play what you love, then go and say that someone's army wouldn't fly in the meta and would get smashed, so you DO care about competitiveness. Not that that is really surprising, considering your army choices <cough>

You are tying your hands with the restrictions you are placing on yourself and us. No counts as, no TWC and need a Blood Angels captain if playing them and the army clearly has to be competitive and assualty.

Space Wolves are a very competitive army, but to get to the top level of power you probably need at least 1-2 TWC in the army. Their Grey Hunters are the premier troop choice in the game, but require significant amounts of rhinos and razorbacks. Grey Hunter are great because with a melta-gun and wolf guard sergeant they are one of the best troop choice HtH units in the game, and can melt vehicles and troops equally well.

Sadly, their jump pack troops are abysmal, so you'd be looking foot slogging (which you said wouldn't work) or mech spam (which you seem to dislike)

That leaves Blood Angels. Their typical competitive lists run either a librarian or Mephiston (neither of which you wanna take) and run heavy razorback/mech spam with a lot of other AV13 vehicles. You can probably run a heavy jump pack list with a captain and a couple of librarian dreads for your herohammer lust, and JP troop units and Sang priests for solid troops. This is likely going to be the list that suits you the best. Army wide FnP and dreads for your rock liking, very assaulty and JP equipped. Just be prepared to have EVERYONE comment on the captain being a bad idea.

Ideally, if you were doing a DiY chapter I would suggest playing both. Non-JP troops in a razor back work for both. Convert up a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf or thunder-lizard or giant mechanical cyber-mastiff...etc. Get some missile launcher devastator squads. A Baal predator with magnetized sponsons works as a razorback and Baal pred. 1-2 Squads of JP troops you could use as skyclaws/death company/assault squads. Predators and vindicators work for both, Dreadnaughts work for both. Runepriest/librarian is the same thing. I would even go so far as to make a demon prince or some some of cross between tau battlesuit/dreadnought for a count as demon prince and leave my options open for setting up a chaos army as well...etc etc etc. Just play whatever you feel like that day. It's what I would do if I was starting marines all over again right now, but I'm stuck trying to make my Ultramarines an assault army.

Agree. Rascon you're going to have to decide which of your criteria are most important to you. As it stands you cant have them all.