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Hello, Dakka. I'm hoping you can help me out. I'm trying to decide on a codex to play, and it basically comes down to Space Wolves versus Blood Angels. I have both of the codices, and I keep going back and forth without being able to make a decision.

I'd like to play an assault-oriented army. That doesn't mean that every unit should be capable of assaulting well, but that the balance of the list will focus on getting in close and hammering away. I like rock units, and I have to admit I like Herohammer quite a bit.

BA Pros:
- Jump Packs. I love Jump Packs.
- Very killy on the charge.
- Very mobile.
- Retains access to a lot of vanilla codex units that I like.

BA Cons:
- The fluff. I hate space vampires. Rules like Red Thirst make it difficult to do a non-BA successor DIY.
- The vanilla HQ units. I don't like doing Counts-As, and their vanilla Captains are terrible. No access to Relic Blades or even Artificer Armor.
- Feels a little flavor of the month, and I think they may end up being a one-trick pony.

SW Pros:
- Incredibly awesome non-Special Character HQ units. It's hard to beat a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a Saga and FB/SS/RA.
- Arguably the best troops in the game; certainly the best "standard" Tactical-style Marines.
- Fluff. Vikings? Awesome.

SW Cons:
- Really only one viable rock unit in the form of Thunderwolf Cavalry. They are an awesome rock, but all other SW assault options suck.
- Thunderwolf Cavalry are a ridiculously stupid unit. Space Marines riding wolves. Come on.
- No successor chapters, thus no DIY.

So I appeal to you, Dakka: which is the way to go?

Rascon wrote:Hello, Dakka. I'm hoping you can help me out. I'm trying to decide on a codex to play, and it basically comes down to Space Wolves versus Blood Angels. I have both of the codices, and I keep going back and forth without being able to make a decision.

I'd like to play an assault-oriented army. That doesn't mean that every unit should be capable of assaulting well, but that the balance of the list will focus on getting in close and hammering away. I like rock units, and I have to admit I like Herohammer quite a bit.

BA Pros:
- Jump Packs. I love Jump Packs.
- Very killy on the charge.
- Very mobile.
- Retains access to a lot of vanilla codex units that I like.

BA Cons:
- The fluff. I hate space vampires. Rules like Red Thirst make it difficult to do a non-BA successor DIY.
- The vanilla HQ units. I don't like doing Counts-As, and their vanilla Captains are terrible. No access to Relic Blades or even Artificer Armor.
- Feels a little flavor of the month, and I think they may end up being a one-trick pony.

With your dislike for count as, I'd think that your path is clear. Just use C:SM and choose the best options that fit your play style and run with it.

SW Pros:
- Incredibly awesome non-Special Character HQ units. It's hard to beat a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a Saga and FB/SS/RA.
- Arguably the best troops in the game; certainly the best "standard" Tactical-style Marines.
- Fluff. Vikings? Awesome.

SW Cons:
- Really only one viable rock unit in the form of Thunderwolf Cavalry. They are an awesome rock, but all other SW assault options suck.
- Thunderwolf Cavalry are a ridiculously stupid unit. Space Marines riding wolves. Come on.
- No successor chapters, thus no DIY.

So I appeal to you, Dakka: which is the way to go?

If your looking for a Rock unit there are several. SW terminators can be mixed and matched, so you can make a truly devastating unit that strikes at initiative. Not everyone has to have SS/TH. You need a bigger rock. 15 BC with attached Wolf Priest will kill most anything on the charge. Ragnar Blackmane attached to 10 PA Wolfguard. Throw in a few p-fists and frost blades and you obliterate stuff. Or Ragnar plus 10 grey hunters + wolf priest. Also take MOTW, and wolf banner, and its just owie.

If you don't like marines riding wolves. Then take marines riding bikes and just call them thunderwolves. As long as you don't take any other bikes, there should be no problems at all.

Again if your unwilling to do count as, probably go back to C:SM. Or just make your own sucessor chapter and don't take any of the named SCs. Your generic rune priest and tooled up wolf lord should still give you all the HQ fire power you could want.

Jayden63 wrote:

With your dislike for count as, I'd think that your path is clear. Just use C:SM and choose the best options that fit your play style and run with it.

Not an option, unfortunately. You simply can't make a decent assault-focused list with C:SM.

If your looking for a Rock unit there are several. SW terminators can be mixed and matched, so you can make a truly devastating unit that strikes at initiative.

That unit is also hideously expensive.

15 BC with attached Wolf Priest will kill most anything on the charge.

That's a 615 point unit, when you factor in the required Land Raider, and I'd argue entirely not worth it when you can get a tooled-up unit of TWC at half the cost.

Ragnar Blackmane attached to 10 PA Wolfguard. Throw in a few p-fists and frost blades and you obliterate stuff. Or Ragnar plus 10 grey hunters + wolf priest. Also take MOTW, and wolf banner, and its just owie.

Suffers from the same issue as above, but that isn't really the point. SW has other rock units beyond TWC - though none are anywhere near as cost effective - but the SW list in general supports close-range shooting, and not so much an assault focus.

Name an inexpensive hammer unit that has legs to last the game? Seriously, if you want an effective hammer, you have to pay for it. Something with legs is going to cost.

If you really want just take 370 points (about on par with a fully tooled up TWC unit) in 20 grey hunters and two rhinos. Run them in tandem and have them double team something.

Even without any upgrades that 60 attacks on the charge, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead MEQs.

15 BC with attached Wolf Priest will kill most anything on the charge.

That's a 615 point unit, when you factor in the required Land Raider, and I'd argue entirely not worth it when you can get a tooled-up unit of TWC at half the cost.

You don't need a landraider, just take a rune priest with stormcaller and walk them.

Also don't just add in the cost of a LR willy nilly. After all if you loose all 15 BC, you still have a LR Crusader to pump out the hurt. I agree that one should never have to take a landraider to transport something. But if you want to run a Landraider in a list anyway. Might as well put something choppy inside it.

I took my Crusader in my list because I wanted to run a crusader. Arjac and his termi buddies just fell into it because I decided to put something in it.

Its not exactly eggs in a basket, because I went at it from a different direction. I'm taking stuff I want, then filling the space it provides.

imo blood angels will be good for a long time. Eventually codex creep will lessen the ferocity of thunderwolves, their go to guys for slaying. Other than that I dont believe that the space wolves are all that strong. Pretty much the same stuff they had before. The BA codex just isnt going away. Also consider that after 3 new marine books there isnt that much left for GW to do with the space knights. Black Templars and Dark Angels. Neither of them seem like a very high priority. Truth is if you play bc you want to win you'll always be switching to the new book, bc eventually they all get eclipsed. but Descent of Angels, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, and Jump Packs will always be strong. Also no other marine chapter is likely to get fast rhinos. IIRC blood angels are the only ones who have ever gotten them. They were good in 3rd they'll still be good in 6th, if I may speculate....
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo blood angels will be good for a long time. Eventually codex creep will lessen the ferocity of thunderwolves, their go to guys for slaying. Other than that I dont believe that the space wolves are all that strong. Pretty much the same stuff they had before. The BA codex just isnt going away. Also consider that after 3 new marine books there isnt that much left for GW to do with the space knights. Black Templars and Dark Angels. Neither of them seem like a very high priority. Truth is if you play bc you want to win you'll always be switching to the new book, bc eventually they all get eclipsed. but Descent of Angels, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, and Jump Packs will always be strong. Also no other marine chapter is likely to get fast rhinos. IIRC blood angels are the only ones who have ever gotten them. They were good in 3rd they'll still be good in 6th, if I may speculate....
AF

I'm not as worried about competitiveness as I am with having an army that plays how I like. It'd be nice if that was competitive into the bargain, but I'm flexible on that part.

Space Wolves are there with the awesome HQ options. Blood Angels are there with the jump packs and assault focus.

well they're both competitive. the end result of both armies in cc is pretty similar - you get there fast, you kill alot of stuff. blood angels arent as hero focused as space wolves. I think space wolves have the cooler background and I like their color scheme. neither scheme is really easy to do, but on balance I see alot more good looking BA armies than I do SW ones.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well they're both competitive. the end result of both armies in cc is pretty similar - you get there fast, you kill alot of stuff. blood angels arent as hero focused as space wolves. I think space wolves have the cooler background and I like their color scheme. neither scheme is really easy to do, but on balance I see alot more good looking BA armies than I do SW ones.
AF

I'd be doing a DIY either way, so original chapter color scheme isn't a big concern.

Blood Angels actually seem far more assault focused - or capable of being assault focused - than Space Wolves, the more I look into them.

well since BA have like a million successor chapters and the space wolves dont have any (except for the 13th company I guess) then that seems pretty strait forward.....

space wolves win assaults through their hqs and their extra special weapons. having an extra attack when you get charged is nice but not game breaking. its thunderwolves that make the army. Your average blood angel trooper is alot stronger than your average space wolf when there's a blood priest around but blood angels dont really have anything to compare to thunderwolves. If you think the thunderwolf is goofy for fluff reasons and dont want to run them (I think they're silly anyway) then go with blood angels, they're far stronger than space wolves without thunderwolves. Either way you'll be saying "wolf" or "blood" alot when describing your units.
AF

For SW you could just paint your guys differently and say it's a Great Company on a Great Hunt they have all kinds of adventures.

I normaly dont speak like thish, but you do show little knowledge about both Armies. Now I can't say anything about the Blood Angles at the Moment, as far as the Space Wolves try Here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Space_Wolves_Tactica%2C_5th_Ed/09_Codex

And Here

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266924.page

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well since BA have like a million successor chapters and the space wolves dont have any (except for the 13th company I guess) then that seems pretty strait forward.....

space wolves win assaults through their hqs and their extra special weapons. having an extra attack when you get charged is nice but not game breaking. its thunderwolves that make the army. Your average blood angel trooper is alot stronger than your average space wolf when there's a blood priest around but blood angels dont really have anything to compare to thunderwolves. If you think the thunderwolf is goofy for fluff reasons and dont want to run them (I think they're silly anyway) then go with blood angels, they're far stronger than space wolves without thunderwolves. Either way you'll be saying "wolf" or "blood" alot when describing your units.
AF

I would happily pull the trigger on BA if their non-SC Captains didn't suck. I'll be running a Captain with either 2xLC or TH/SS (lol) without even Artificer Armor using that codex. That's just depressing compared to the FB/RA/SS Thunderlord, even before you start talking about Sagas.

yeah they blow. but librarians are pretty strong for what they cost.

You could codex hop if people are cool with it. the jump pakcs are the big concern though being the backbone of BA and being a little meh with wolves

Anpu
I'm not going to read that article. its too long. If you have something to say just say it. minus the juvenile quips.
AF

You do realize that the Captain is pretty worthless except for being cool and for being a bruiser? Librarians and Reclusiarchs are a lot better. At least they get a free PW.

purplefood wrote:For SW you could just paint your guys differently and say it's a Great Company on a Great Hunt they have all kinds of adventures.

Sure, that's an option around SW fluff, that's not really a problem. The problem is that they're just not good CC army without TWC, and even with TWC, it's only the TWC that makes them good at it.

They are good in CC. And they shoot very well.

Now granted, there are better CC units, but no army can provide the same 12" death bubble that SW can.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:You do realize that the Captain is pretty worthless except for being cool and for being a bruiser? Librarians and Reclusiarchs are a lot better. At least they get a free PW.

Very much aware, which is why I said I'd do BA in a heartbeart if Captain wargear options were better. Unfortunately, I appear to have some sort of fluff monkey mental block that prevents me from running a list without a Captain in it.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:You do realize that the Captain is pretty worthless except for being cool and for being a bruiser? Librarians and Reclusiarchs are a lot better. At least they get a free PW.

Pretty much this. Then again I love psykers so both armies have great ones so I dont mind nigh useless captain and the absence of relic blades and chapter masters becuase then we mind as well smash together the BA codex with the SM one!

eh. theres only 1 captain for every 100 guys. he cant be everywhere. librarians are legit. personally I get tired of seeing so many heroes in the game. Vulkan can only be at 1 place at 1 time for christs sake.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:eh. theres only 1 captain for every 100 guys. he cant be everywhere. librarians are legit. personally I get tired of seeing so many heroes in the game. Vulkan can only be at 1 place at 1 time for christs sake.
AF

That's largely why I don't use SCs.

Captains are just one of those weird must-haves for me.

Correct BA can very assault oriented since assault marines count as troops. Four assault squads, sanguinary guard etc. Check out some of the lists in the Army List forum.

Rascon wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:eh. theres only 1 captain for every 100 guys. he cant be everywhere. librarians are legit. personally I get tired of seeing so many heroes in the game. Vulkan can only be at 1 place at 1 time for christs sake.
AF

That's largely why I don't use SCs.

Captains are just one of those weird must-haves for me.

cant you just run a reclusiarch and say "Hes a really REALLY inspiring captain, NOT a chaplain"

rzsanguine wrote:Correct BA can very assault oriented since assault marines count as troops. Four assault squads, sanguinary guard etc. Check out some of the lists in the Army List forum.

Oh, I have. That's what I like best about them.

It contrasts nicely with all the folks claiming that SW can do assault armies, too; what they mean is that they stick a unit or two of TWC in their list in place of the TH/SS Terminators from vanilla and claim it's an assault army, instead of being a shooty army with a rock assault unit.

Well, I know you don't like SC, but nobody uses this guy: Tycho. He's a captain and he, basically, gives your army Ld 10.
Oh and he attacks like an MC.

Just don't use DC tycho, it's like Mephiston, they smell of old nasty cheese or something, I don't know, but the other guys don't wanna hang out with them. Maybe they suck at being wingmen.

kenshin620 wrote:

Rascon wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:eh. theres only 1 captain for every 100 guys. he cant be everywhere. librarians are legit. personally I get tired of seeing so many heroes in the game. Vulkan can only be at 1 place at 1 time for christs sake.
AF

That's largely why I don't use SCs.

Captains are just one of those weird must-haves for me.

cant you just run a reclusiarch and say "Hes a really REALLY inspiring captain, NOT a chaplain"

Ha! No more than I can run TWC without Thunderwolves and claim they're just guys who can sprint really fast, unfortunately.

I mean, seriously; why do BAs, the most assault-focused SM codex out there, not get a decent CC Captain?

I run a 2 Blood Claw list that is very Assualty Without TWC or Terminators.

Because, the libby and reclusiarch while not as good as the captain in CC, makes their units so much better that it doesn't matter.

So they're HUGE force multipliers.

And you do not win by having the best HQ, you win by having the best army.

Anpu42 wrote:I run a 2 Blood Claw list that is very Assualty Without TWC or Terminators.

Yeah, two Land Raiders sounds fun, I guess, but meh.