Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yes it does insaniak.

You cannot arrive from reserves (which is: ‘…must move onto the table from the controlling player’s own edge…”) until you first roll to see which edge you arrive from.

don_mondo wrote:Fine, yours is wrong because mine is right. How's that?

What are you on about? I've already agreed that I was wrong.

hisdudeness wrote:Yes it does insaniak.

You cannot arrive from reserves (which is: ‘…must move onto the table from the controlling player’s own edge…”) until you first roll to see which edge you arrive from.

Sorry, that logic puts you into an endless loop that is going to cause someone's head to explode.

Essentially, you're saying that a rule that takes effect when the unit 'arrives from reserves' can not take effect until you have determined which edge the unit comes on from, right?

Splitting a unit into combat squads happens when the unit 'arrives from reserves' ... so you have to determine which edge the unit arrives from before they can split. So far, so good.

Rolling to determine which edge an outflanking unit is coming on from happens when the unit 'arrives from reserves'... so, by the same logic, you have to determine which edge the unit arrives from before you can make the roll... to ... determine which edge they ... arrive ... from... Oh dear...

Outflank is a process just like everything else. And no, combat squad happens when the unit ‘deploys’ not when it ‘arrives from reserves’.

1) During deployment phase declare (paraphrased from p 94 BRB) what IC’s are doing, what transports are doing, and if a unit will deep strike, scout, infiltrate, or outflank.

2) During game roll for reserves and player picks an arriving (arrives from reserves) unit. This triggers the outflank rules for a unit declared to be outflanking.

3) Starting from the top “Outflank’; p94, when unit arrives from reserves the player rolls to determine which edge it enters the “table as described for other reserves”.

4) We have to look to see how a unit enters the “table as described for other reserves”. And we see that they enter the table from the board edge rolled in the previous step. Now the squad can be combat squaded as they are now being deployed.

I see not loop that will cause injury or death. ‘Deploy’ is implied to be when the unit hits the table by various places. Most of these combat squad issues would be solved if GW defined key words better.

hisdudeness wrote:And no, combat squad happens when the unit ‘deploys’ not when it ‘arrives from reserves’.

Which, when the unit was in reserve, is the same thing.

‘Deploy’ is implied to be when the unit hits the table by various places. Most of these combat squad issues would be solved if GW defined key words better.

That's the thing, though. The act of deploying the unit doesn't just include the moment you place it on the table. It's the entire process. When arriving from reserves via outflanking, though would include the outflank roll.

Not saying your way isn't a good way to do it. It's just not the only way to do it.

No; a unit is not deployed in to reserves, it is placed. The BRB is pretty clear on this.

The act of deploying only includes placing on the table. I have seen no place in the BRB that implies otherwise. Everything before is determining in what manner the unit be deployed (as in placed on the table).

I don’t know if my way is correct, it is just the simplest way I have found and GW has made a big push to simplify things. It follows KISS= Keep It Simple Stupid. Just the simple action of combat squading as one of the first steps complicates everything. If the solution makes more questions than it answers, it is most likely not the correct solution.

In general, combat squading should be one of the last things done in just about every situation.

hisdudeness wrote:No; a unit is not deployed in to reserves, ...

I never said it was...

The other problem with splitting your combat squad and then having half of it come in as normal is that you didn't declare that it was coming in from your table edge. You have to clearly explain what units are in reserve and how they are entering play. By combat squading and then having one move on from your edge you have now broken that rule. It also says that this decision may not be change later. So if you declare that the unit of scouts is outflanking then when you split it you cannot change your mind and have it not outflank.

Brock: Insaniak has relented to most of that point; now we are on to What edge(or edges) does the "parent unit" come on to.

Combat squading is done at deployment, not after.

In army deployment you declare the 10-man scout squad will be outflanking.

During a turn that squad becomes available(and as such will be deploying).

The last paragraph of rolling for reserves tells you to "deploy" each unit in whatever order you choose.

This brings you on to the "Arriving from reserves" step telling you how to deploy each unit(including elements of a combat squad).

outflank is an extension of the arriving from reserves rules(based on the statement "When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player...")

Basically we are told to "deploy" reserved units as they "arrive". This screws everything up for Combat Squads(arriving via outflank; deppstrike has a special Deployment of units deepstriking).

For 10 termies Deepstriking and combat squading; They become available, and now need to deploy; at deployment you decide to combat squad them. Place 1 model, and roll for scatter, then place the remaining models in that unit. Now Place 1 model of the second sub unit and roll for scatter then placing the remain models in that ubit.

For 10 Scouts outflanking and combat squadding we run into an issue: They are available and so need to deploy, part of the deployment is the combat squadding. Also part of the deployment is rolling for table edge. We have no idea which of these 2 come first(nor any way of knowing).

if it is combat squad first then roll for edge per squad.

If it is Roll for edge first, then both squads come in on the same edge.

When in doubt discuss it with your opponent; if negotiation fails, roll of for it. there is no Clear ruling on this.

@kel: a unit is ‘deployed’ when it is placed on the table. Just about every reference to deploy is followed by the action preformed and this is normally the unit being placed on the table. Everything insaniak described is the mechanics of determining HOW the unit deploys and not the act of deploying itself.

Just like I said earlier, if you hold combat squading as the last step before placing the unit on the table (or as they are being placed on the table if it makes you feel better)you will find that there will be very little conflict between the CS rules and any other rule.

On a side note, the idea that the new combat squads (either one or both) lose the declaration of ‘outflank’ is just silly. The combat squad rules do not say that the new units lose the initial declaration, so they don’t. That is like saying now that I combat squaded my scouts with camo cloaks, the second demi squad does not have them anymore but the first one still does. The cloaks were bought and cannot be changed once the game starts.

hisdudeness wrote:@kel: a unit is ‘deployed’ when it is placed on the table.

That doesn't automatically mean though that something that happens 'when the unit deploys' can only happen as the model is actually placed on the table.

'As the unit deploys' covers the entire process of deployment. For a unit arriving from reserves, everything from the time you choose the unit to deploy to the time you remove your hand from placing the last model on the table is happening 'as the unit deploys'...

I get what you are saying insaniak, but I disagree. This disagreement is based solely on the idea of simplicity is the key. If there is a rules question that is not explicitly answered by the BRB, the simplest answer is the correct one. If the solution presented makes more questions that cannot be answered by the BRB, then it is hands down the incorrect solution. Deploy is a pretty specific term used throughout the BRB, so when it states a unit can combat squad when is deploys I take it as is can only happen when is deploys. And since deploying only means being placed on the table, I take it as only happening as they are placed on the table. I also disagree that a unit is ‘deployed’ when you start the process to determine various details on how the unit is deployed. Various places in the BRB imply 'placed on the table' is the definition of deploy and lacking any concrete answer I choose to go with that.


The unresolved part of the question is when do you combat squad. If you place it anyplace else but at the very end you make more questions that cannot be answered, thus they are the incorrect solutions. The only solution that does not cause more questions is to CS when you place them on the table.

hisdudeness wrote:I also disagree that a unit is ‘deployed’ when you start the process to determine various details on how the unit is deployed.

You're not disagreeing in that case, because it's not what I've been saying.

The unit is not deployed when you start the process. It is being deployed when you start the process.

What you're saying is that 'when it is deployed' means actually being placed on the table.
What I'm saying is that 'when it is deployed' means any time during the deployment process.

Various places in the BRB imply 'placed on the table' is the definition of deploy and lacking any concrete answer I choose to go with that.

Yes, being placed on the table is the actual, physical part of the deployment. But the process starts with choosing a unit to deploy.

The unresolved part of the question is when do you combat squad. If you place it anyplace else but at the very end you make more questions that cannot be answered, thus they are the incorrect solutions.

They're not incorrect, because neither way is actually resolved by the rules. They're just slightly more complicated. And by 'slightly', in this particular case, meaning that instead of assuming that you can only Combat Squad as you are physically placing the models on the table, you decide whether to apply two apparently simultaneous rules together or one at a time. So at best, a quick discussion and moving on, at worst a die roll to decide and moving on. Not really that complicated.

Again, I'm not saying your way is not a good way of playing it. It's just not the only way to play it, nor do I see it as any more correct by the rules as they currently stand.

The problem is that the rules for combat squad do not say ‘as they are being deployed’, they say ‘when they are deployed’. So the idea that the timing is ambiguous and the player can choose is incorrect. On this we will just have to disagree. The process is not deploying.

I am also not saying your way is wrong either, but just brings up more questions that also do not have an answer. But ultimately it will come down to the player deciding or rolling for how it is played. I just prefer the simplest method unless the rules tell us otherwise. Maybe I played Magic too long as a kid and still look at rules as a step by step and timing process.

Nothing can happen simultaneously when applying rules. Something has to go first. The process for outflank is not determining when the unit arrives, but in what manner it arrives. Combat squad is concerned with when, not how. The BRB even tells us that ‘arriving from reserves’ is moving on the table edge. And being placed on the table is ‘deploying’. Since you do not have to declare combat squading until the unit is deployed, I do not see why the reserves/outflank rules would even care about combat squad rules.


Side note: it is good to see reasonable discussion on rules, I have enjoyed it. I will end now as I believe the information is present for others to decide for themselves on how to play it. Any longer and we will just be posting in circles.

Leaving side the timing of the 'deployed' issue, since we have indeed covered that well and truly, and would just be going around in circles from here... I did want to address this point:

Nothing can happen simultaneously when applying rules.

Sure it can. In the assault phase, we're even explicitly told to do so in certain situations.

But in this case, applying the rules simultaneously would actually make them work the way you have been arguing for: If you apply the combat squads rule at the same time as the outflank rule, you're rolling for outflank at the same instant as they are choosing to split up... so you're rolling for one unit that is in the process of splitting as they deploy.

Being able to roll separately for each Combat Squad only works if you choose to apply (or your roll off results in) the Outflank roll going first.