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Topher21 wrote:As a Space Wolf player, I'm quite sure that my chapter has well over 1000 battle brothers. I have not done the math, but from the fluff of the codex, Ragnar's Great Company alone has almost 200. With 11 other Great Company's, plus the Great Wolf's company, Space Wolves easily number over 1000. I would venture to say even over 1500 easy, but that is purely speculation and I have no actual evidence to back it up.

No they are way more than that dude. One Great Company was recorded with 1,000 Space Wolves

But you guys forgot my chapter has 3,000 marines.

So what if he counts scouts?

They are the tenth company of Marines.

They may not have yet earned their power armor and progressed to Devastator Marine, but they're still Marines. Just lesser Marines. Kinda like Conscripts are still Guardsmen.

Fiend wrote:Good article. He makes a good assessment that I mostly agree with. However, he does count scouts, which aren't 'full' space marines. He puts up good points for the existence of dedicated vehicle crew and pilots who aren't part of the company structure.

regarding scouts.

We don't consider them battle brothers, yet they fight as brothers to marines?

they may not have earnt their place in the chapter yet, but do remember a scout marine is a veteran of many more battles then any guardsmen by the time he ranks up. putting aside the OT of that, the fact is that a scout is still a space marine.

HE is not a full space marine.
he is still a battle brother.

I can see how some may view scouts as battle brothers, but, imo, they aren't. In some background they don't receive the title 'brother' until they have earned power armor. They also do not have all of the implants that make a space marine and can't wear the armor. They may have a lot of experience in comparison to guard, but they are still missing things that make a space marine. I wouldn't call half a rhino in the manufactorum a rhino. Also, in the codex, tactical, assault and devastator squads have 'space marine' as the models' names. The scout squad models are just called 'scout.'

Anyways, that's how I see and it is supported by background material. I'm sure there is background material that says otherwise though. Besides....

Calgar: Oh, those 100 scouts don't count yet. They're not real marines. Take them off your list, bureaucrat.

If scouts aren't Battle Brothers, then there are only ~906-910 or so (including the 10th company captain and their command squad as Battle Brothers) battle brothers in a chapter not including ancillaries such as techpriests, librarians, and chaplains. Because the scouts ARE the tenth company.

Well, no. My first post pointed out you can get 1060 about, without counting scouts. Don't forget honor guard, which can be large, and all the captains and their respective command squads. Also, any of the specialties may or may not be supernumerary. There really is a lot of supposition either way.

Perhaps it is really much simpler, the scouts do count, the 1000 is the 10 man, 10 squad, 10 company number and all else are supernumerary. In this case this chapter number may be very high, like the OPs guess or the BoLS article.

Yes... the command squads, which are included in the 100 battle brothers per company I believe. The Honor Guard is also part of the first company too I think.

Lol. We have a very different interpretation of a SM chapter organization.

I disagree here too. Command and honor guards are outside of the main 100 in a company. In the 5th ed SM codex, the Ultra's organization chart lists the honor guard separately with the master. I'm not sure, but the command squads my be this way too. Also, in the Salamander book, when that guy (can't remember name) is promoted to the command squad he worries about who's replacing him in his squad, meaning the squad remains full without him.

Anyways, what counts as supernumerary really is the trick here and can swing the total in a chapter by + or - ~200-300. Scouts can also swing by + or - 100. This is starting at a base of 900, from the 9 agreed upon companies. My estimate came from a low supernumerary count and didn't count scouts.

This can probably go on ad nauseam, so suffice it to say, the number is much more than 1000 battle brothers, but can vary based on interpretation.

1060 isn't "much more than 1000".

Even assuming command squads are separate, that would mean 945 Marines (950 if the first company has both honor guard AND a command squad). Assuming Captains are separate, that would mean 955 Marines. Assuming the Honor Guard is separate, that would mean (Based on the tabletop numbers for honor guard, as Calgar's is notably large) roughly 960-970.

But being in the Honor Guard doesn't necessarily mean you're not in any of the companies as far as I know (which is why I stated they're probably part of first company). So again... 1000 plus apothecaries, techmarines, chaplains, and librarians. These aren't necessarily"battle brothers" as their duties are not purely combat-oriented. No Marine is incapable of fighting-- an Apothecary is able to destroy the Emperor's enemies with astounding ease for a medic/surgeon type position-- and they vary heavily from chapter to chapter.

Blood Angels seem to have a lot of chaplains for example, to deal with their little psychological problem. Blood Ravens have a large Librarium. I believe there were chapters that had a large number of Apothecaries, as well, and I'm certain the Iron Hands have a larger than normal number of Techpriests (or rather, "Iron Fathers").

Scouts aren't battle brothers but they're still marines, unlike servitors which are lobotimised cyborgs.
As far as the 100 scouts of the scout company not being enough to offset losses, that assumes that the scouts of the scout company is all a chapter has to work with. The scout company could just be where the recruits deemed ready enough to go to war are placed. There could be any number of recruits going through various stages of training and implantation but that the preference is to maintain a company strength scout company as part of the active roll of the chapter.
The scouts are quite an investment for a chapter and are thrown into some very dangerous situations. Given their lack of protection in both a hardened carapace under the skin and power armour, a company would understandably not want to risk too many of its own future by over using scouts.

In regards to the other extra marines, I doubt the reserve companies would have the command squads and I doubt the scout company would have a command squad. I do see every company being appointed a chaplain and apothecary though regardless of status as these are core services.
I believe there has to be some kind of motorpool company though, the reserves simply are not enough to crew all the vehicles given the travel distances involved, there has to be extra marines outside of the reserve companies to crew the rhinos, tanks and thunderhawks plus some minimum marine presence on the various ships of the fleet.
The honour guard may be the first squad of the first company, though as the chapter master is not part of the first company I'd think the honour guard were his troops to command only and he wouldn't undermine the authority of the first captain by having a tenth of the first company at his personal service.

I'd think there would be at least another 100 marines in a company, probably 2-300 more.

The "Motor Pool" are the Techmarines.

Good points with the scouts Cad.

I agree with Melissa that the Techmarines could be the 'motorpool' insofar as driving the larger tanks and ships. Tactical squads or servitors can handle the rhino/razorbacks. Although this would be stretching them pretty thin for any large deployment of armor.

Which is fine, because Marines don't do that very often.

If the Imperium needs a huge deployment of tanks rather than infantry (Even such durable infantry as Marines)... they send the Guard

Melissia wrote:The "Motor Pool" are the Techmarines.

Based soley on the presence of a mechanicum type shoulder pad on the vehicle sprue, I'd say the crews are appointed to serve under the techmarines. Nowhere does it say the techmarines drive the tanks, it is always mentioned as space marines that drive the tanks, rhinos etc. I know the techmarines are the motor pool in terms of running things and looking after the vehicles but I meant the marines that actually sat inside and worked them.
On the note about shoulder pads, the earlier vehicle crews did not have shoulder pads, the designers rightly realising that the marines could never fit through the hatches or move about inside with the things on. One of these days I'll remove the ones I have on mine to reflect this more practical concept.


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Melissia wrote:Which is fine, because Marines don't do that very often.

If the Imperium needs a huge deployment of tanks rather than infantry (Even such durable infantry as Marines)... they send the Guard

I was thinking about that before and had to ask myself why marines had tanks in the first place. As they'd need a thunderhawk to deliver it, then why not just have the thunderhawk take out whatever target is in the way and forget the tank? The marines have enough portable firepower to take out vehicles on the ground and tanks do seem to go against the idea of a quick strike.

no, to be in the motor pool your name needs to be kren or frep....

Antaro Chronus is the big boss for the ultramarines tank crews. The codex even states that he has command over fifty battle brothers. Wether those count as tech marines or actual marines I don't know. But I highly doubt that number includes servitors.

Tanks as big as land raiders count just fine for fast surgical strikes. Afterall, the BA already proved they can fall pretty fast. What you won't see them having, for good reason, is something as heavy as a Baneblade or Stormblade. That IS what the local guard is here for.

cadbren wrote:I was thinking about that before and had to ask myself why marines had tanks in the first place. As they'd need a thunderhawk to deliver it, then why not just have the thunderhawk take out whatever target is in the way and forget the tank? The marines have enough portable firepower to take out vehicles on the ground and tanks do seem to go against the idea of a quick strike.

Fluffwise, Thunderhawks have limited endurance so can't hang around for an extended campaign, and many times marine operate where the air/space conditions don't allow air support. Realistically, you'd probably have marines run more as air cavalry with orbital bombardment support, but that doesn't fit as well on the tabletop or allow the fluff where marines spend weeks, months, or years supporting a big offensive like Armageddon. Of course if you look too much at realism, marine units are too small to do what they do fluffwise, marine strike cruisers and battle barges would be way more effective than the marines themselves, and a whole host of other things can get nitpicked.

The reason Marines have tanks is because tanks are cool.