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How many times do I have to say this?

Fluff /= rules.

If we're going to define the rules based on fluff, next time I play, I get to bring my Orks, and they automatically win, because Ork fluff says Orks never lose.

So how's that for a trade-off? Your Phoenix Lords can benefit from Exarch powers, and my Orks automatically win every game. Sound good?

Erm maugan RA does have crack shot and fast shot, but can use 1 per turn not both, just like any other exarch, the pheonix lords are the masters of each aspect and thus have the powers listed in the special rules for each one, and i have no idea why this 1) even started because it blatently says under one of either fast shot or crack shot "cannot be used in the same turn as crack/fast shot."
nobody else notice that? so the answer to number 1 is no he may not use both in the same turn, but he does have both of the special abilitys as they are listed under his profile.

And as said, Fluff ≠ Rules. If fluff were rules, Dash would be even more META because Orks can never lose.

SaintHazard wrote:How many times do I have to say this?

Fluff /= rules.

If we're going to define the rules based on fluff, next time I play, I get to bring my Orks, and they automatically win, because Ork fluff says Orks never lose.

So how's that for a trade-off? Your Phoenix Lords can benefit from Exarch powers, and my Orks automatically win every game. Sound good?

There's a difference I am qualifying what an Aspect warrior and Exarch is. There is no model that is call an aspect warrior so no one in the unit (other then the exarch) could benefit from the powers. Phoenix lords are Exarchs says so in black and white. Matters not if its in the fluff. Mad dok grotsnik has Doks tools but these only work for a pain boy ... oh look in the text it says he is.

Tri wrote: Matters not if its in the fluff.

So you agree that Orks will always win or draw, regardless of mission objectives, because orks can never lose?

Looks like Orks are even more META than we imagined!

Tri wrote:Matters not if its in the fluff.

So how do we qualify "rules," then, Oh Master Tri? Since Your Royal Highness is the only entity here qualified to determine what is and is not rules, in the fluff, how are we going to define rules based on fluff? Are your Phoenix Lords Exarchs? Are Joe Chaos Daemons Player's Daemon Princes "Daemons?" Can I field an army that consists of five Space Marines, and jack up their stats to meet the fluff?

There's a reason fluff and rules are not interchangable.

Again, if you want your Phoenix Lords to be Exarchs, that's fine. My Orks can never lose, and my Space Marines are WS10 BS10 S5 T5, with 10 wounds each and 10 attacks off the charge. They're also Fearless, Relentless, Tank Hunters, and have a 2++ save. Furthermore, my Necrons get to make WBB rolls every five seconds and need 2+ to get back up. They're also T7 and have a 2++ save to represent Necrodermis. I also get to call in MOAR NECRONS every turn. I roll 10d6, and bring in that many Necron Warriors using the Deep Strike rules, but they never scatter.

Want to keep defining rules based on fluff?

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote: Matters not if its in the fluff.

So you agree that Orks will always win or draw, regardless of mission objectives, because orks can never lose?

Looks like Orks are even more META than we imagined!

quote me a passage that says that orks all ways win? There's stories about them being tough strong but nothing that changes there stats or rules. In the Eldar codex it says that phoenix lords are exarches so they can use they Exarch power because that is what they are.

@saint
Nothing I am saying changes the stats or what the model has. It does is explain why PL can have and use Exarch powers because they are.

Tri wrote:quote me a passage that says that orks all ways win?

Codex: Orks (4th Edition) p. 49

Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

Codex: Orks (4th Edition), p. 106

We is gonna stomp da universe flat and kill anyfink that fights back. we're da Orks, and was made ta fight and win.

Even your precious Eldar agree:
Codex: Orks (4th Edition) and p. 8, Waaargh: Orks p. 62

From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

So, your PL can use Exarch powers when my orks can never be defeated. Happy?

Sorry Tri, you are hopelessy wrong on this one. The RaW is 120% clear. If you don't like it, House Rule it, but that is all it will be, a House Rule.

The big deifference is that under maugan ra's special rules it says crackshot, fast shot who cares if hes an exarch or not (which he is) its there in blakc and white in the pheonix lords special abilitys pages saying he has them both! but can still only use one a turn. and

**Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!**

Is a matter of opinion to an ork it isnt fluff its an opinion. an opinion. an opinion.. srsly how many times. the ork isnt saying they never lose he is saying that orks dont THINK that they lost because all they wanna do is fight. MY GOD. even in fluff the pheonix lords are exarchs but putting all that asside Maugan RA has the abilitys Fast shot and Crack shot under his profile go get your codexes for god sake.

thelordoflife wrote:Maugan RA has the abilitys Fast shot and Crack shot under his profile go get your codexes for god sake.

And?

The Doom of Malan'tai has Warp Field under his rules that he cannot use, RaW, nor has any errata been made to correct this. This is not an "old" thing. GW are always doing it. Why? Who knows.

But I digress, this is starting to get silly with the "FLUFF ARE ROOLZ" arguments. I think it's time to put this one to bed.

thelordoflife wrote:The big deifference is that under maugan ra's special rules it says crackshot, fast shot who cares if hes an exarch or not (which he is) its there in blakc and white in the pheonix lords special abilitys pages saying he has them both! but can still only use one a turn. and

**Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!**

Is a matter of opinion to an ork it isnt fluff its an opinion. an opinion. an opinion.. srsly how many times. the ork isnt saying they never lose he is saying that orks dont THINK that they lost because all they wanna do is fight. MY GOD. even in fluff the pheonix lords are exarchs but putting all that asside Maugan RA has the abilitys Fast shot and Crack shot under his profile go get your codexes for god sake.

I am of the opinion that Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, and that's just Eldar propaganda.

By your logic, I win the argument, and fluff is still rules (somehow).

Universe implodes in 5, 4, 3, 2...

Gwar! wrote:

Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!

We is gonna stomp da universe flat and kill anyfink that fights back. we're da Orks, and was made ta fight and win.

From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher wrote:The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

.

working through you're quotes.
1) is a commonly held View so isn't fact
2) Probably quite true if you look at orks long term. However here and now we can kill a few of them and win the battle
3) This changes what? Every thing is true but I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate to wipe them out if it was an option,.

It is a commonly held view that Phoenix Lords are Exarchs.

What if that's a lie?

Regardless, it doesn't make it true if they're not listed in their rules as such.

Trying to spin it any other way is simply moronic.

And the Lord of life decends on his pegasus to end this argument because of the FAQ!

** Q. As pheonix lords are not exarchs but independant characters, do their exarch powers (shadowstrike, skyleap, etc) affect units other than aspect warriors.
A. Their powers only affect units of aspect warriors**

So that means they may use there exarch powers thus maugan RA can use his powers too..

Now tell me im wrong because its quite blatent that from the FAQ they can use thir powers.

thelordoflife wrote:Now tell me im wrong because its quite blatent that from the FAQ they can use thir powers.

Or it's another example if GW being morons.

The FAQ doesn't say they can use it, it only says what happens if they do.

Since they can't use them in the first place, it's simply a redundant question for the Stoopidz, like most of the FAQs GW write.

SaintHazard wrote:

thelordoflife wrote:The big deifference is that under maugan ra's special rules it says crackshot, fast shot who cares if hes an exarch or not (which he is) its there in blakc and white in the pheonix lords special abilitys pages saying he has them both! but can still only use one a turn. and

**Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!**

Is a matter of opinion to an ork it isnt fluff its an opinion. an opinion. an opinion.. srsly how many times. the ork isnt saying they never lose he is saying that orks dont THINK that they lost because all they wanna do is fight. MY GOD. even in fluff the pheonix lords are exarchs but putting all that asside Maugan RA has the abilitys Fast shot and Crack shot under his profile go get your codexes for god sake.

I am of the opinion that Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, and that's just Eldar propaganda.

By your logic, I win the argument, and fluff is still rules (somehow).

Universe implodes in 5, 4, 3, 2...

So long as you're happy with SM being unable to use ATSKNF If they are an Apothecary, Attackbike, Bike sergent, Captain, chaplain, chapter champion, chapter master, company champion, Librarins, Master of the forge, scouts, scout bikers, scout bike sergent, scout sergent, Techmarine, Terminators, terminator sergent or (deep breath) veterans because nowhere are they listed as space marines other then in the fluff.

This sort of thing can be found every where.

Can we please stop arguing people -.- ill tell you what, for those people who want to argue with blatantly obvious rules (that by the way are just crushing my soul every time i read something like **The FAQ doesn't say they can use it, it only says what happens if they do. **) then they can do but i bet that a TO would be in the rulings that the FAQ says what happens if a units affected by them , thus they can use them, thus maugan RA can use his abilites.

End of come on now people

Actually, all units in Codex: Space Marines are technically Space Marines. It's called the English language. You should try it some time.

The rules say that only Exarchs can use the powers. No rule says the PL are exarchs (though they are most certainly Eldar).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thelordoflife wrote:Can we please stop arguing people -.- ill tell you what, for those people who want to argue with blatantly obvious rules (that by the way are just crushing my soul every time i read something like **The FAQ doesn't say they can use it, it only says what happens if they do. **) then they can do but i bet that a TO would be in the rulings that the FAQ says what happens if a units affected by them , thus they can use them, thus maugan RA can use his abilites.

End of come on now people

I am a TO. I rule that exarch powers don't work for PL.

Where's my Money?

Gwar! wrote:Actually, all units in Codex: Space Marines are technically Space Marines. It's called the English language. You should try it some time.

Does that still work if they're in the blood angels or Space wolves codices?

Tri wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

thelordoflife wrote:The big deifference is that under maugan ra's special rules it says crackshot, fast shot who cares if hes an exarch or not (which he is) its there in blakc and white in the pheonix lords special abilitys pages saying he has them both! but can still only use one a turn. and

**Orkses is never defeated in battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!**

Is a matter of opinion to an ork it isnt fluff its an opinion. an opinion. an opinion.. srsly how many times. the ork isnt saying they never lose he is saying that orks dont THINK that they lost because all they wanna do is fight. MY GOD. even in fluff the pheonix lords are exarchs but putting all that asside Maugan RA has the abilitys Fast shot and Crack shot under his profile go get your codexes for god sake.

I am of the opinion that Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, and that's just Eldar propaganda.

By your logic, I win the argument, and fluff is still rules (somehow).

Universe implodes in 5, 4, 3, 2...

So long as you're happy with SM being unable to use ATSKNF If they are a Apothecary, Attackbike, Bike sergent, Captain, chaplain, chapter champion, chapter master, company champion, Librarins, Master of the forge, scouts, scout bikers, scout bike sergent, scout sergent, Techmarine, Terminators, terminator sergent or (deep breath) veterans because no were are they listed as spacemarines other then the fluff.

This sort of thing can be found every where.

Exactly. SaintHazard and Gwar!, you two never cease to make me laugh, simply for your naivete. Like religious fundamentalists taking the BGB as a sacrosanct religious text (or a Codex, in this case). It's funny how you don't apply logic to the rules at all, and take them literally in every sense.

I've said it to Nos before and I'll say it again - saying that the RAW is the only way that this can be interpreted is giving your very own definition of RAI. You're assuming that what is written is exactly what the writer meant, without any sort of outlying meaning. How is that a different interpretation of someone telling you that they know what the writer meant? Does Phil Kelly come out and say, "By the way, don't use any logic in interpreting these rules. Only take what you read to be true."? Because that is just as much RAI as saying that he meant the opposite.

And to SaintHazard - I nearly doubled over in laughter at your "Don't expect your Phoenix Lords powers to work in a tournament." That's great. In fact, I'd say about 99% of the time, people use what they believe to be RAI in a tournament. Even Gwar! has said he doesn't necessarily play like this, but he'll certainly point it out during the game. And if I called over a TO and asked him if the Phoenix Lords powers affect them, I would bet money on the fact they would say yes. (And Gwar!, you're not a TO. You're a rules lawyer that sits on a some sort of moral high ground because GW "stole" *snickers* what, 20% of their FAQ from you?)

Stop taking the written word so seriously and apply a little cognitive thinking to it. That is what the rulebook is for. After all, you know that we could write a sentence and three different people could read it three different ways and come up with three different meanings for the sentence. Inflection, tone, speed - all these things factor in to how one reads a passage.

Why is the way that you read it correct? Someone else could read it quite differently. But they can't possibly be right because you've been ordained by. . .who exactly, to interpret the RAI? Oh, I'm sorry - you call it RAW.

Let me get this straight...Maugan Ra has Crack Shot and Fast shot listed under his special powers and he can't use them because they're tehnically exarch powers? I'm sorry, but I'd call shenanigans on anyone telling me so. Oh, by the by, on the sides of Phoenix Lord's metal stands says: "Banshee/Reaper/Scorpion Exarch" so I guess RAW says they're tehnically exarchs. It's GW that writes stuff on their models, right?

RAW is all well and good, but often when I see these sort of debates, it's not "rules as written", it's more "rules as forgotten" or "rules as logically bereft". But ymmv. And GW is not helping things either with their oh-so-delicious vagueness.

Thread starting (!) to get nasty...

Multiple MOD ALERTS...

Closing now!