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Hi there,

Mates had a game recently and these questions came up.

1) Maugan Ra has the 2 exarch Dark Reaper upgrades Crack shot and Fast shot. The exarch Dark Reaper can't use both upgrades in one turn, he must choose either or before he fires. Can Maugan Ra use both upgrades in the same turn, since he's not an exarch but a Phoenix Lord and the restriction shouldn't apply to him?

2) If you're rolling for reserves on a turn that has a 2+ to come on the board and you have an Autarch that gives you a +1 bonus to the roll, isn't it just automatic? Is there such a thing, as a roll of a "1" is an auto fail, no matter how many bonuses you have?

3) Can the Eldar guardian support weapon platform be ignored for purposes of providing cover for the Eldar guardians behind it, getting in the way of an assault move, and being targetted for shooting?

Any help would be appreciated.

1) Iffy. If, as you say, he's a Phoenix lord and NOT an exarch, and as such, the EXARCH exclusions do not apply - then equally, EXARCH powers might not apply to him equally, as he is neither an aspect warrior nor exarch.
I'd say no. If you are using the Exarch skills, then ALL restrictions implicit in them apply to the unit using them. So, one or the other. Not both.

2) Auto fail on a 1 is for to-hit or to-wound. Reserves don't cover it either way. In this case, if you need a 2, and an Autarch grants a +1, then yes, it would come on that turn. Roll dice and ignore result.

3) Do you mean the Heavy Support platform or the Guardian Defender platform?
Both are part of the unit they form, and units do not gain a coversave from their own models.
In the case of the former, it is an artillery unit, and the weapon counts as a model in the unit, so the UNIT can be assaulted, targetted for shooting, etc.
In the latter, the platform is merely a marker to determine which heavy weapon is being used by the squad. LOS and Range are determined from either of the two crew within 2", not from the marker. Ignore it for range and assault moves.

Sister Stern wrote:Hi there,

Mates had a game recently and these questions came up.

1) Maugan Ra has the 2 exarch Dark Reaper upgrades Crack shot and Fast shot. The exarch Dark Reaper can't use both upgrades in one turn, he must choose either or before he fires. Can Maugan Ra use both upgrades in the same turn, since he's not an exarch but a Phoenix Lord and the restriction shouldn't apply to him?

2) If you're rolling for reserves on a turn that has a 2+ to come on the board and you have an Autarch that gives you a +1 bonus to the roll, isn't it just automatic? Is there such a thing, as a roll of a "1" is an auto fail, no matter how many bonuses you have?

3) Can the Eldar guardian support weapon platform be ignored for purposes of providing cover for the Eldar guardians behind it, getting in the way of an assault move, and being targetted for shooting?

Any help would be appreciated.

1) Agree with chromedog 100%. RaW he can't use Exarch powers at all, so if you want to house rule and use them, you do it so they are used the same way as an Exarch.

2) Disagree with chromedog. The Eldar codex explicitly mentions that a roll of 1 is a fail. For other codexes, a roll of 1 for reserves is not always fail, but for Eldar it is. Sucks, but those are the breaks.

3) The Troop platforms are ignored completely. The HS platforms follow the rules for artillery. In addition, models don't get cover from their own unit.

Nice Catch, GWAR.
Didn't check the eldar codex for specificity there GWAR.
-brainfart on my part.

No worries. It's just worth remembering that it applies ONLY to the silly Elfdars.

Tyranids, Guard and anything else nowadays that modifies the reserves dice does not always fail on a 1.

For example, a Nid army with a Hive Tyrant (with the right upgrades and a Swarmlord have reserves come in on a 2+ on Turn 2, a 1+ on turn 3 and a 0+ on Turn 4. It isn't automatic because things like Officer of the Fleets might affect it and so on and so forth, so you technically must still roll, but any result will be high enough for the roll to be successful.

Gwar! wrote:1) Agree with chromedog 100%. RaW he can't use Exarch powers at all, so if you want to house rule and use them, you do it so they are used the same way as an Exarch.

Depends on if you want to section parts of the text for each power off as fluff or not.

In either case, even if you go so hard-line that a PL can't use Exarch powers, they're still aspect warriors and can still be affected by them. (Not very helpful with Maugan since his powers are individual by nature, true...)

Regarding the reserves roll - that's 4th edition codices for you.

1) yeah, that's what I thought.

2) D'oh, forgot to check the Eldar codex, I was just checking the main rulebook and FAQ. Wow, auto fail on a 1 in black and white, usually you don't find a GW rule answered so easily and straightforward. Suks for the Eldar.

3) Yeah, sorry I was talking about Guardian Defender platforms. Another I guess side question is that enemy movement and consolidation moves can be within 1 inch of the platform but still 1 inch away from Guardians. Does that sound right?

Oh and thanks for the answers to other questions.

Yes, the platform is just a marker. Feel free to move it at any time during any phase if it makes measurements easier.

The support weapon platform has absolutely zero effect on gameplay in any way. Measurement is not done from it. If it is the only thing that is within range of an enemy's attack (assault or shoot), it doesn't count. It doesn't get in the way of assaulting units piling in. It is basically just a marker for the unit, with the same effect as a die you leave next to a model to mark it's wounds.

[quote=Gwar1) Agree with chromedog 100%. RaW he can't use Exarch powers at all, so if you want to house rule and use them, you do it so they are used the same way as an Exarch.

You know what's also stated in the background part? How super awesome Space Marines are and how 3 of them can conquer a whole planet.

Fluff is not rules.

So if Phoenix Lords are Exarchs, because their fluff says so, that means that next time I play, I can bring my Orks, and I automatically win every game, because Ork fluff says Orks can never lose... right?

@ Gwar!: You're right. Fluff is not rules. I will remember that, and refrain from using it as such in the future.

@SaintHazard: See above. However, there have been instances of Orks losing on other Codices. Yet another instance of GW inconsistency?

Howeverrrr...
They have Aspects. They are obviously not vanilla Aspect Warriors, or there would be no mention of them specifically, nor would they have different stats. The only other conclusion that places them in their Aspects is that they are Exarchs, as this is the [EDIT:] only other category to put them in[/EDIT]. Hence, they are named Exarchs who are ICs. There.
And also, the entry on p.21 says that the Exarch powers are available to the Exarchs. If a PL has the powers (and all of them do, see entries) but is not an Exarch, there is an impossible situation.

If a PL has the powers (and all of them do, see entries) but is not an Exarch, there is an impossible situation.

Wouldn't be the first time. This isn't something that I've ever picked up on before, but is evidently raw. Phoenix lords are not exarchs (they would be squad upgrades if they were - not a bad idea for a future codex) but are independent HQ's that have exarch powers. If the rules for exarch powers indicated they worked for both PL's and exarchs then everything would be kosher, but it only lists exarchs and the occassional autarch as being eligible. Another 4e Eldar Codex snafu ftw!

Do you actually play like this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know How You Would Play It isn't really supposed to be in here, but I still want to know.

Cayar wrote:Do you actually play like this?

Yes, because the rules are 100% clear.

That's funny. You just made my day.

Actually it has to be that the Phoenix Lord gets the Exarch upgrades because there is a section for all Phoenix Lords that says you can't double up the bonuses of 2 of the same Exarch upgrades. The only reason to have that clarification is if the Phoenix Lord can get those Exarch powers and is joined with the squad thus a potential of doubling up of Exarch upgrades. I don't know of any other way to you could double up on Exarch powers in a single squad. So say Fuegen has Tank Hunters skill and so does the Exarch Fire Dragon then you would not get +2 on armor pen. rolls, only +1. The more logical choice for Muagan Ra is that he follow the same restrictions as the Exarch and can't use Fast Shot and Crack Shot in the same player turn, since they are the same Exarch powers. I'll have to wait to get home to find the exact pg. in the Eldar codex.

Gwar! wrote:

Cayar wrote:Do you actually play like this?

Yes, because the rules are 100% clear.

Wow. If I'm understanding this correctly the Pheonix Lord is listed with the exarch powers, but because the power description doesn't say it works on Pheonix Lords you would insist they can't use it? The illogic astounds me, I would absolutely pack my army up and leave

Ity is the same as the special Tyranids(Swarmlord, Doom, etc) pre-FAQ they all had abilities or powers that they could not use:they were not bugs of the type listed in the power descriptions.

After all you wouldn't expect a Farseer to have access to warlock powers would you(Hint: farseers are Warlocks trapped on the path of the Seer; says so in their fluff)

KK - actually not all farseers are warlocks initially, or at least Path of the Warrior (Gav Thorpe, he knows his Eldar!) indicates this - Thirienna moves straight onto the seer path, despite being a DA and a Poet before.

Moves, and immediately gets locked into; or just moves onto?

Warlocks are Eldar on the seer path; Farseers are Eldar who are locked into the seer path

Eldar dex page 27: "The most aggressive and warlike of all the Witch Paths is that of the Warlock. Warlocks are Seers who once trod the path of the Warrior, blah blah blah"

Eldar Dex Page 26: "Just as Eldar who are trapped on the Warrior Path become Exarchs, so Seers who progress too far along theWitch Path become Farseers."

Although those are the words of Phil Kelly; but he literally wrote (this) book on the Eldar.

As I said - Path of the Warrior indicates you dont have to be a Warlock (a war like psyker) to be on the path of the Seer. In fact the book indicates that you can voluntatrily decide to be a Farseer without having trodden the witch path at all - literally she moves from a poet to the seer path, training as a Farseer immediately.

This could be one of those Dan Abnett STC moments, however. Will be interesting to see what the next Eldar codex says about this.

Path of the warlock =/= path of the farseer.

They are both aspects of the path of the seer, much like the aspects are part of the warrior path.

Notable seer paths include warlock, spiritseer, farseer.

The ultimate end for those locked on the path of the seer is to become a crystal seer, and one with the infinity matrix (as per C:Eldar).

Brotherjulian wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Cayar wrote:Do you actually play like this?

Yes, because the rules are 100% clear.

Wow. If I'm understanding this correctly the Pheonix Lord is listed with the exarch powers, but because the power description doesn't say it works on Pheonix Lords you would insist they can't use it? The illogic astounds me, I would absolutely pack my army up and leave

If you're prone to temper tantrums and ragequitting as soon as the rules aren't interpreted exactly the way you want, this probably isn't the hobby for you.

They are not defined as exarchs. Exarch powers do not apply to them.

This is something similar to the "are Daemon Princes Daemons, even though they don't have the 'Daemon' special rule" arguments that crop up every damn week. You may call them Exarchs if you want - you can call them Susie if it makes you happy - but because the codex does not define Phoenix Lords as Exarchs, Exarch powers do not apply to them.

Exactly. Your ragequitting says a lot more about you than it does about me.

SaintHazard wrote:

Brotherjulian wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Cayar wrote:Do you actually play like this?

Yes, because the rules are 100% clear.

Wow. If I'm understanding this correctly the Pheonix Lord is listed with the exarch powers, but because the power description doesn't say it works on Pheonix Lords you would insist they can't use it? The illogic astounds me, I would absolutely pack my army up and leave

If you're prone to temper tantrums and ragequitting as soon as the rules aren't interpreted exactly the way you want, this probably isn't the hobby for you.

They are not defined as exarchs. Exarch powers do not apply to them.

This is something similar to the "are Daemon Princes Daemons, even though they don't have the 'Daemon' special rule" arguments that crop up every damn week. You may call them Exarchs if you want - you can call them Susie if it makes you happy - but because the codex does not define Phoenix Lords as Exarchs, Exarch powers do not apply to them.

Ok, this may be RAW, but it is clearly not RAI. The Phoenix Lords are listed as having Exarch Powers. It makes no sense for these powers not to actually do anything. If that was what GW intended, they simply wouldn't have those powers at all.

This is just another case of GW not being careful enough with wording of the rules, but I think we can all agree that they should be interpreted as PL being allowed the Exarch Powers they have listed.

No, those of us who play by the rules cannot agree to that. You cannot simply say, "Oh, well, the rules say X, but OBVIOUSLY GW meant Y, because we are psychics who can tell what the people who work for GW are thinking all the time forever, so let's play it like Y, because Y benefits me and puts you at a disadvantage."

RAW, they are not Exarchs. Exarch powers do not apply to them. It's that simple. Don't like it? Play another faction. Don't field Phoenix Lords. House rule it. There are alternatives that do not involve willfully breaking the rules because the rules don't suit your mood.

But don't go to a tournament and expect your Exarch powers to apply to your Phoenix Lord.

Grakmar wrote:Ok, this may be RAW, but it is clearly not RAI.

Ah, sorry Phil Kelly, author of the Eldar Codex, I didn't know you had a DakkaDakka account!

Tell us, did you steal write the SW FAQ personally or get some lower level lackeys to do it? </snark>

In short, we don't know what the RaI is. We know what the RaW is though, and it is as clear as <something very clear>.

As SaintHazard says, feel free to House Rule it/ask the TO to house rule it, but the rules themselves do not allow PL to use Exarch Powers. Sucks, yes, but thems the breaks.

SaintHazard wrote:No, those of us who play by the rules cannot agree to that. You cannot simply say, "Oh, well, the rules say X, but OBVIOUSLY GW meant Y, because we are psychics who can tell what the people who work for GW are thinking all the time forever, so let's play it like Y, because Y benefits me and puts you at a disadvantage."

RAW, they are not Exarchs. Exarch powers do not apply to them. It's that simple. Don't like it? Play another faction. Don't field Phoenix Lords. House rule it. There are alternatives that do not involve willfully breaking the rules because the rules don't suit your mood.

But don't go to a tournament and expect your Exarch powers to apply to your Phoenix Lord.

Go to a tournament and you can expect it to work for them.

If you read page 21 it says that the powers only effect Aspect Warriors and Autarches. To find out what an Aspect warrior is you need to do a bit of reading (see page 10 and also in the description for each unit) but i will surmise ...

Aspect warriors are Dire avengers, howling banshee, fire dragons, striking scorpions, dark reapers, swooping hawks, warp spiders and shining spears (though the last two don't have PL).
Aspect warriors can become exarches, they are still aspect warriors but they are locked to that one aspect.
Phoenix lords are the most ancient exarches (see page 54).

Its a shame that's all written in the fluff but then that's the only way to understand the meaning of the names "Aspect Warrior", "Exarch" and "Phoenix Lord". Its much the same as knowing what a model is or that a Tech-marine, Chaplin, Captain, ect is a special type of space marine.