- *Sigh* Why the hell would you bring tigurius into the argument if you arent planning to outflank anyway? Like what you said a regular libby would suffice.
Are you having trouble understanding what I'm saying? Tigurius trumps a basic librarian in a list such as this for more than just the re-roll to the reserve roll. Have you even seen what Tigurius can do/ does? The basic libby will suffice
if he choses not to spend points that way...or is playing a smaller game where the points just aren't there. The comparison between the two is like a basic farseer and Eldrad. The only way you'd ever want to take a basic seer is if you are needing a bike council. Having options is never a bad thing. Tigurius can bring/give you options even an
Epistolary can't provide. However, if he's lean on points you CAN get by without him. He isn't that integral to the overall performance of the list, or how it fundamentally works.
I assume you agree on what i said. If you've seen lists that work well without Khan, then whats the merit of this argument regarding how good khan is?
Are you even fully reading what I'm saying? I'm saying Khan isn't required to be riding Moondrakken (a bike) to make a good
WS list. Where did I say to not take Khan at all?
-This argument makes my blood boil. If people are "toting plenty of shooting to take land raiders out", maybe we should tell everyone not to field LRs at all.
Why? Because it's true? One landraider doesn't last long in
any games I play either as marines, or vs. them. They are singled out for destruction far faster than any other transport...especially if I know what's in it. Fielding
LRs is fine, but don't assume that your precious cargo is going to make it there every time...if at all. It shouldn't make your blood boil to know that
one Landraider vs. an army isn't good odds, but several can...but that leads to more debate, etc. but that isn't what we should be discussing.
-Of course ill have to come to you to be more effective, and yes they are predictable, what im trying to say is he doesn't NEED to be predictable. Is the "twin linked melta and flamer" part, subtle for anyone?
He doesn't? How are these magic twin-linked weapons getting to their targets? More magic? Look, every Vulkan list is going to be running these units..it's almost mandatory: Assault terminators,
MM/
HF Speeders,
LR Redeemer/
LRC. Without these units, the list is worthless. Why? Because for the terminators to use their nifty
TH/
SS they need a ride to
get there. You need to have some fast moving speeders to get into
MM range quickly, or have the ability to alpha strike key targets. The core of the list never changes. The rest of the list is troops with Melta weapons and flame weapons...which also require transports of some kind to get to where they can use their weapons. That doesn't leave much room to get any long range weapons that can reliably stop much.
-Vulkan lists are easy to counter? Care to expound?
Do I really need to spell this out? By now, just about
everyone has figured out how to beat this build...or has a good idea. I suggest looking through old posts in the Tactics section to get your answers. This thread isn't the place to bring it up again.
-Most of the points are tied up in slow moving units? Maybe we should all take bikes then?
LRC+
TH/
SS Terminators= Lots of points tied to delivery of one unit. All the beatstick stuff is on units that walk. Take the transport out, and suddenly your guys are walking. The only real fast moving things a Vulkan list has is Attack Bikes with
MM, or
HF/
MM speeders...gee I wonder why I see those in every Vulkan list I play? The
TH/
SS gimmick is a lynchpin to the list that once is taken care of...the rest falls apart.
Vulkan armies cant field any transports? Dude wut?
Wut? Sure they can. But with all your mounted stuff it doesn't leave much room for anything else. I've even seen people fielding multiple
LRs with Assault terminators. That's a huge amount of points invested into something that needs to get to target safely to makes its mark in a game. If your transports are all shot out from under you...what then? I'm not saying a Vulkan list is bad. It's just predictable. A good list and a clever player should rarely lose to it. But enough about Vulkan. This thread is about Vanguard and
LRs. My suggestion is if the
OP wants to field these, then Khan is a good choice because he
actually boosts the unit he wants to use to ball bustingly good levels.
Like i said: YMMV. What I said is luck plays a huge part in out flanking which is fact.
Luck plays a huge part in the game period. However, you manage that by the list choices you make, the deployment you use, and decisions you make in game which reduces the luck component significantly. If chance is affecting your decision to Outflank, I think you need to rethink your position. Outflank is a fantastic dynamic to the game that many don't fully use, or understand. To the inexperienced, it may seem like a bad plan, but to experienced people that plan to use Outflank in their lists given the opportunity, it works.
Ive actually played and watched outflank armies with khan, and here's what ive seen:
Have you experienced getting your out flanking assets shot out because they came out piecemeal? Not a very nice scenario.
The same can be said for normal reserves. It can happen. However, you can be on the board and have your entire transports shot from under you as well. Sometimes bad things happen to good people...
LOL.
What about your opponent deploying all of his forces on the left, then your assets arrive on the right? Look at how they struggle to join the fight with their outgunned and outnumbered comrades.
LOL. You do realize that the probabilities to getting the edge you want is 66% right? I hear this concern a lot and I laugh every time I hear it. If they are only deploying on one side, that's funny too.
Look, two essential things happen to your opponent when you are playing with the
possibility of Outflanking in your list. 1.: It's forcing your opponent to adjust their deployment strategy, or suffer the consequences (exception: Daemons). Which means it can lead to bad decisions 2. It pretty much guarantees that your opponent will centralize his army in his zone, or if that alternative isn't a good solution they reserve their own units. (exception: Daemons). With this knowledge, it allows you to place objectives in a manner in which Outflanking works in your favor.
Like what you said, outflanking aint really unpredictable, but then again unpredictability isn't what wins games. Superior tactics does. And IMHO, flanking rarely pose as a superior tactic.
I think I demonstrated why Outflanking can be a superior tactic. Maybe you haven't played with it enough, or maybe your opponents haven't much experience using it enough. Either way, it's a great tactic to use if you've built units into a list that can have the possibility to utilize it.
My apologies to the
OP, I didn't mean to derail the thread.
