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I'm seeing a lot of Land Raiders full of Death Company and Blood Claws, so I was wondering why my Vanilla Marines should be so left out?

I was thinking that with Vulkan in my list, this squad:

10 Vanguard Vets, 2 Thunder Hammers

And this Guy:

Chaplain Cassius

Riding in one of these:

Land Raider(pick a flavor)

Would be pretty awesome. Has anyone tried something similar?

Because Vanilla Marines have TH/SS Terminators. Yes, you can do that. Yes, you will kill everything you charge. However, you'll gain little hitting power and lose a whole lot of durability while paying an additional 85 points.

DarkHound wrote:Because Vanilla Marines have TH/SS Terminators. Yes, you can do that. Yes, you will kill everything you charge. However, you'll gain little hitting power and lose a whole lot of durability while paying an additional 85 points.

Well BA have TH/SS too, right?

I think you'd be gaining a lot of hitting power, but maybe not.

They're more expensive for BA.

Well, the best way to field VV is given in the BA codex.
Equipped with jump packs, they benefit from both, DoA and heroic intervention.
This makes them a perfect alpha-strike unit.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm seeing a lot of Land Raiders full of Death Company and Blood Claws, so I was wondering why my Vanilla Marines should be so left out?

I was thinking that with Vulkan in my list, this squad:

10 Vanguard Vets, 2 Thunder Hammers

And this Guy:

Chaplain Cassius

Riding in one of these:

Land Raider(pick a flavor)

Would be pretty awesome. Has anyone tried something similar?

Awesome: yes. Points efficient: no.

You are paying 20 points for ablative wounds. Some redeeming factors that make the vanguard vets great is the relic blade and heroic intervention. Obviously you are not using the latter.

Heroic intervention is dangerous and untrustworthy. Use TH/SS, points better spent.

I put my Vulkan in a Land Raider Redeemer stuffed with 10veterans with a variety of non-initiative-decreasing CQB weapons. It saves you the 250pts for jump packs for the vets and you get to use the inferno cannons and assault cannon and still assault first-turn.

Your enemy is not going to make it to the next assault phase

Jaon wrote:Heroic intervention is dangerous and untrustworthy. Use TH/SS, points better spent.

Locator Beacons help with it.

I already have my Elites part of the FOC full, and there's erminators aplenty.

Just brainstorming another sort of Hammer Unit. For large games.

Suicidal Cheez wrote:I put my Vulkan in a Land Raider Redeemer stuffed with 10veterans with a variety of non-initiative-decreasing CQB weapons. It saves you the 250pts for jump packs for the vets and you get to use the inferno cannons and assault cannon and still assault first-turn.

Your enemy is not going to make it to the next assault phase

Ah, someone who's tried it!

See that sounds good, especially in concert with my other Assault Units.

i would rather do 6 TH/SS termies in a Redeemer in a Vulkan army.

TH that reroll 1 miss per turn in CC.

Grey Templar wrote:i would rather do 6 TH/SS termies in a Redeemer in a Vulkan army.

TH that reroll 1 miss per turn in CC.

Already got one of those! Well, not a Redeemer, but close!

Like I said, I'm more looking for brutal units in other sections of the FoC. I'm going to go with it, I'll let you know how it works.

This works best with Khan. Take Khan and a vanguard squad, and suddenly they get furious charge and hit and run. Equip them with some LC's and a PF or two and you have a rather beefy beatstick. Khan should be well protected in that unit.

The BA TH/SS Termies may be more expensive, but:

1) Its only by 5 points. Thats a total of 25 points. Almost nothing because of #2

2) You get Termies with Furious Charge (S9, can Penetrate monoliths and Land Raiders and Laugh at C'tan) and Feel No Pain (reducing the effectivness of the best way to deal with TH/SS Termies by half: weight of fire) This can easily be gained by a Sang Priest inside your raider, just keep him there and keep the raider within 6" of the Termies when they charge.

3) Chaplains as Elite Choices or Libbys that give the squad preffered enemy (Who's laughing now Vulkan? Master Crafted, pffft!) and your Seargant or another model +D3 attacks if you want.

I'd Say just having all of that available is worth a small fee of 25 Points.

CaptKaruthors wrote:This works best with Khan. Take Khan and a vanguard squad, and suddenly they get furious charge and hit and run. Equip them with some LC's and a PF or two and you have a rather beefy beatstick. Khan should be well protected in that unit.

That's a good idea!

I'd have to lose Vulkan or Cassius from my list though. Do you think the Litanies of Hate is worth Giving up for Furious Charge?

TH/SS terminators scare me to fight against.

That threat of being almost-completely-immortal while still able to squish tough things is scary.

7 guys with 2+ and 3+(invul) are SO MUCH TOUGHER than 10 guys with 3+ and no invulnerable save, and the 7 termies cost 5 points less than 10 vanguard with 2 thunder hammers.

Suddenly some suicide melta unit blows up your landraider in first half of game, and that super-expensive vanguard squad can be killed with a single Battle Cannon or barrage of plasma cannon fire since they die 3 times faster than terminators.

Monster Rain wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:This works best with Khan. Take Khan and a vanguard squad, and suddenly they get furious charge and hit and run. Equip them with some LC's and a PF or two and you have a rather beefy beatstick. Khan should be well protected in that unit.

That's a good idea!

I'd have to lose Vulkan or Cassius from my list though. Do you think the Litanies of Hate is worth Giving up for Furious Charge?

Depends on where you plan to pit your deathstar unit against. Khan and his FC is good if you plan to eradicate relatively softer units, but Casius is better for prolonged brawls. The bastard is really hard to kill!

Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+.

Khan on the other hand, with his great attacks, Furious charge ect, is a great buy.

That said, if you want to actually compete, you must have a Librarian with Null Zone. Hoods are near mandatory, and null zone wins games. This means you only get 1 other HQ, thus you must choose between Vulkan and Khan. Technically neither is better than the other, because each is a different kind of list.

Khan termies outflanking in a raider doesnt suck it should be noted. Also, with melta not being twin linked, Khan lead lists tend to roll with more combi preds and missiles, which also dont suck.

EDIT: The above was pretty off topic, as you are asking about Vanguard Vets. On topic, Vanguard Vets stink... if you want a non-elite unit that fights, either the scoring tactical unit with fist, the 5 man no-nonsense command squad that can be kitted any number of ways, or an assault squad sans-JP with free rhino/DP are where its at. Assaults also get a thammer, which is important in a Vulkan list. Consider, 2x5 assault squads with rhinos and hammers cost 260. 10 VV with 2 hammers in a raider cost 500ish. Same bodies, same # of hammers, and 2 rhinos instead of 1 raider for target saturation. Plus you can get decent special weapons.

DevianID wrote:Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+.

Khan on the other hand, with his great attacks, Furious charge ect, is a great buy.

That said, if you want to actually compete, you must have a Librarian with Null Zone. Hoods are near mandatory, and null zone wins games. This means you only get 1 other HQ, thus you must choose between Vulkan and Khan. Technically neither is better than the other, because each is a different kind of list.

Khan termies outflanking in a raider doesnt suck it should be noted. Also, with melta not being twin linked, Khan lead lists tend to roll with more combi preds and missiles, which also dont suck.

EDIT: The above was pretty off topic, as you are asking about Vanguard Vets. On topic, Vanguard Vets stink... if you want a non-elite unit that fights, either the scoring tactical unit with fist, the 5 man no-nonsense command squad that can be kitted any number of ways, or an assault squad sans-JP with free rhino/DP are where its at. Assaults also get a thammer, which is important in a Vulkan list. Consider, 2x5 assault squads with rhinos and hammers cost 260. 10 VV with 2 hammers in a raider cost 500ish. Same bodies, same # of hammers, and 2 rhinos instead of 1 raider for target saturation. Plus you can get decent special weapons.

Toughness 6 AND Feel no Pain. Yes, that's how TOUGH he is.

DevianID wrote:Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+..

Yuber wrote:
Toughness 6 AND Feel no Pain. Yes, that's how TOUGH he is.

And we're talking about S8+ weapons, which in CC, the majority of them ingnore FNP, so....he's really not all that tough, is what we are saying.

whitedragon wrote:

DevianID wrote:Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+..

Yuber wrote:
Toughness 6 AND Feel no Pain. Yes, that's how TOUGH he is.

And we're talking about S8+ weapons, which in CC, the majority of them ingnore FNP, so....he's really not all that tough, is what we are saying.

You need strength that is equal to target's double toughness to ignore FnP. Str 8 is nowhere near Casius' toughness of 6.

DevianID wrote:That said, if you want to actually compete, you must have a Librarian with Null Zone. Hoods are near mandatory, and null zone wins games. This means you only get 1 other HQ, thus you must choose between Vulkan and Khan. Technically neither is better than the other, because each is a different kind of list.

Oh I actually kind of disagree. I think Vulkan's chapter tactics are worth trading Combat Tactics for, Khan's... Not so much. Someone who knows that a beastly unit is outflanking will just stay away from the table edges. I know I do...

Also, Cassius is a beast. At only 25 more points than a normal chaplain with T6, FNP and a Combi-Flamer? That's a steal.

Monster Rain wrote:

DevianID wrote:That said, if you want to actually compete, you must have a Librarian with Null Zone. Hoods are near mandatory, and null zone wins games. This means you only get 1 other HQ, thus you must choose between Vulkan and Khan. Technically neither is better than the other, because each is a different kind of list.

Oh I actually kind of disagree. I think Vulkan's chapter tactics are worth trading Combat Tactics for, Khan's... Not so much. Someone who knows that a beastly unit is outflanking will just stay away from the table edges. I know I do...

Also, Cassius is a beast. At only 25 more points than a normal chaplain with T6, FNP and a Combi-Flamer? That's a steal.

You are forgetting Toughness 6 dude. =)

That's a good idea!

I'd have to lose Vulkan or Cassius from my list though. Do you think the Litanies of Hate is worth Giving up for Furious Charge?

Losing the Chaplain is worth it. With a Khan list, you have to also take into consideration of what else you are fielding. Personally, if I'm taking any competitive marine army, my first HQ will always be a librarian of some kind. With Khan's ability to allow you to Outflank with your units, using Tigerius is an interesting choice. It allows you to use reserves well since he gives you the reroll.

Oh I actually kind of disagree. I think Vulkan's chapter tactics are worth trading Combat Tactics for, Khan's... Not so much. Someone who knows that a beastly unit is outflanking will just stay away from the table edges. I know I do...

I don't agree with that. Both lists are fundamentally different in terms of unit choices, deployment style, and how they operate on the table. It isn't necessarily whether you can avoid this unit, but the fact that this unit (and others) changed your deployment strategy based on what it can do. That in itself is worth it. If it can dictate board control and the pace of the game, then the advantage lies with the Khan list.

Yuber wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

DevianID wrote:Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+..

Yuber wrote:
Toughness 6 AND Feel no Pain. Yes, that's how TOUGH he is.

And we're talking about S8+ weapons, which in CC, the majority of them ingnore FNP, so....he's really not all that tough, is what we are saying.

You need strength that is equal to target's double toughness to ignore FnP. Str 8 is nowhere near Casius' toughness of 6.

That's not true, is it? I thought anything that doesn't allow a save (power weapons, MC hits etc) disallowed FnP?

CaptKaruthors wrote:

That's a good idea!

I'd have to lose Vulkan or Cassius from my list though. Do you think the Litanies of Hate is worth Giving up for Furious Charge?

Losing the Chaplain is worth it. With a Khan list, you have to also take into consideration of what else you are fielding. Personally, if I'm taking any competitive marine army, my first HQ will always be a librarian of some kind. With Khan's ability to allow you to Outflank with your units, using Tigerius is an interesting choice. It allows you to use reserves well since he gives you the reroll.

Oh I actually kind of disagree. I think Vulkan's chapter tactics are worth trading Combat Tactics for, Khan's... Not so much. Someone who knows that a beastly unit is outflanking will just stay away from the table edges. I know I do...

I don't agree with that. Both lists are fundamentally different in terms of unit choices, deployment style, and how they operate on the table. It isn't necessarily whether you can avoid this unit, but the fact that this unit (and others) changed your deployment strategy based on what it can do. That in itself is worth it. If it can dictate board control and the pace of the game, then the advantage lies with the Khan list.

Regarding outflanking Khan army: YMMV. Luck plays hugely on when and where your assets will pop up. Sure your opponent will modify his deployment based on your outflanking army but the question is: is it really worth it?

To be fair tho, I have never seen an entire army outflank and be successful, what i mean is I question their competitiveness.

On Vulkan lists however, not only do you wield reliable weapons, but his chapter tactics actually turn them into sure weapons.

the bottomline is: Would you rather field an army that relies mostly on luck (Khan), or rather an army that strikes hard and strikes true (Vulkan)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slinky wrote:

Yuber wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

DevianID wrote:Casius isnt that tough, as he only has 2 wounds right? The T6 is mitigated for the most part because everything you really worry about is mostly s8+..

Yuber wrote:
Toughness 6 AND Feel no Pain. Yes, that's how TOUGH he is.

And we're talking about S8+ weapons, which in CC, the majority of them ingnore FNP, so....he's really not all that tough, is what we are saying.

You need strength that is equal to target's double toughness to ignore FnP. Str 8 is nowhere near Casius' toughness of 6.

That's not true, is it? I thought anything that doesn't allow a save (power weapons, MC hits etc) disallowed FnP?

True if you were referring to powerfists.

But more to the meat of the matter: What is the definition of "tough"? Is it a dude that can take 2 STR10 hits before going down? or a dude that has an armor save of 2+, invu saves but dies to insta kill?
Pretty subjective matter on the context of "tough", but if you dont consider Casius to be tough, then What do you consider tough?

Eternal Warrior, 3++ save, 4 wounds is tough... aka lysander. T6 5 wounds huge combat stats is tough... aka Mephiston. Both of these characters can take lots of pain, and with a strong offensive ability can kill most anything before dying.

Cassius has 2 wounds, for a large price tag. The 4++ is nice, but as a combat character Cassius can not justify his cost most of the time, as besides slightly buffing one unit on the charge he does nothing a powerwep sarge cant do.

As for the value of outflank, dont think about it in terms of luck. If you take a strong list that can choose to outflank, it only gives you options--it never makes your army become any more luck dependant.

For example, if you get matched up versus a strong guard alpha strike list, and he wins the roll to deploy first, do you think the ability to outflank is more or less useful than your short range melta being twinlinked? Many would rather not get blown off the board on turn 1.

Monster Rain, i will be the first one to just say.... that is an awesome idea.
Probably pretty expensive, but not much could challenge that. And its full of win.

And to people who say BA have more expensive TH/SS its only an extra 5 points.

Regarding outflanking Khan army: YMMV. Luck plays hugely on when and where your assets will pop up. Sure your opponent will modify his deployment based on your outflanking army but the question is: is it really worth it?

Luck? You make your luck with what you are taking. Again, taking Tigurius can help with reserve rolls. Additionally, who is to say I'm outflanking the whole force? Just having that option is worth it.

To be fair tho, I have never seen an entire army outflank and be successful, what i mean is I question their competitiveness.

Again, why are you assuming that you would need to Outflank everything? I've seen several competitive Khan lists. The reason you don't see many of them is that bikes aren't cheap money-wise. They are no more, or no less competitive than a Vulcan list.

On Vulkan lists however, not only do you wield reliable weapons, but his chapter tactics actually turn them into sure weapons.

Yes, but they are short ranged guns and need to traverse the field of battle to get them where they need to be. Vulkan lists IMHO are clumsy, predictable, and anyone with a good list can beat it.

the bottomline is: Would you rather field an army that relies mostly on luck (Khan), or rather an army that strikes hard and strikes true (Vulkan)?

I'd rather field an army that is fluid enough to quickly adapt. Vulkan lists are easy to bog down. Once they loose any potential long range threats, they are easily corralled and dealt with. While Vulkan lists can fool most people, good players have figured this list out already. I think most top players will agree that dissecting a Vulkan list is rather easy. However, does that make the list bad? No. All I'm saying is that BOTH lists are viable builds. Both have vastly different approaches to how they play though.

DevianID wrote:1. Cassius has 2 wounds, for a large price tag. The 4++ is nice, but as a combat character Cassius can not justify his cost most of the time, as besides slightly buffing one unit on the charge he 2. does nothing a powerwep sarge cant do.

1. For 25 points more than a regular Chaplain you get Toughness 6, a Combi-Flamer and Feel No Pain. That's a pretty good deal.

2. IF you honestly think that, I don't know what to say to you.

He's WS 5, makes a squad fearless, requires attacks to be split off from the squad to attack him in CC, can be allocated a wound from a Krak Missile and laugh it off through Feel No Pain... I could probably go on.

Monster Rain wrote:

DevianID wrote:1. Cassius has 2 wounds, for a large price tag. The 4++ is nice, but as a combat character Cassius can not justify his cost most of the time, as besides slightly buffing one unit on the charge he 2. does nothing a powerwep sarge cant do.

1. For 25 points more than a regular Chaplain you get Toughness 6, a Combi-Flamer and Feel No Pain. That's a pretty good deal.

2. IF you honestly think that, I don't know what to say to you.

He's WS 5, makes a squad fearless, requires attacks to be split off from the squad to attack him in CC, can be allocated a wound from a Krak Missile and laugh it off through Feel No Pain... I could probably go on.

Cassius in this instance is completely worth it. I have to say I think the better load out for your VV in LR would be TH, RB, PW and put Vulkan in with this squad too. The VV in LR unit is pretty expensive for what it does, but I suggest if you really like the idea you should try it out. I would be very interested in seeing how it performs.