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Wings, Warptime and either Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch. Usually Nurgle.

TheBloodGod wrote:Although it is actually possible to

Prince A lashes enemy to 5" away from Noise Marines.

Noise Marines then S5 AP3 flame smash them in the face.

Prince B lashes enemy 2d6", rolls like 11" and moves the unit so it's now 16" away from the Noise Marines (too far to assault them.)

Lash has such an excellent 24" range and combined with the 12" wings move, it's very versatile. Last game Slaanesh + Tyranids vs. Orks + Blood Angels, I flew over and Lashed 2 of his Deffkoptas like 10" over within 12" of some ripper swarms.

Those pathetic ripper swarms killed like 3 helicopters that game due to my one Lash prince, and only suffered like 1 or 2 wounds.

Lash helps with
- assault troops getting into assault (2d6" extra charge range basically, cuz enemy moved 2d6" towards you.)
- getting enemy off an objective (2d6" off it)
- maximizing templates (can get 10-12 hits with flamers instead of 3-4.)
- keeping assaulters from assaulting you. (Enemy trygon, super killing machine with 6" move and fleet, 7 S6-S7 attacks on charge and re-roll all misses. Two princes can juggle him 4d6" away each turn (average 14" moving him backwards and he moves towards you only 9.5" each turn)

If going combat:
Nurgle prince, wings, warptime. S6 T6 with re-rolls to hit and wound, he'd still get utterly massacred if that big Trygon jumped on him.

Lash princes become a liability at large points value games because T5 and enemy will gun them down. In low points value games I lose them 0% of the time unless I'm specifically sending them on a suicide mission to distract enemy and win me the game. In huge games, you'll want something like a lash sorc. in a big terminator unit because it takes much more gunfire to kill him.

At small levels, you can't really afford a bling bodyguard for a sorcerer so the cheap 155 point monstrous creature prince does it so much better, it lashes just as well plus it's got good stats.

I can see the lashes utility against armies that don't have any defense against it, like hoods, SoB 5+ saves, GK ability, or the easiest defense of all, metal boxes. But honestly I've never been too afraid of it since i ditched horde orks back in 4th ed. T5 and only a 3+/5+ means it dies to anybody serious about killing it. Usually lash lists lean hard on it too. So when their 2 sources of lash dies in the first two turns (something I've done many times) or gets negated somehow, they tend to lose.

notabot187 wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:Although it is actually possible to

Prince A lashes enemy to 5" away from Noise Marines.

Noise Marines then S5 AP3 flame smash them in the face.

Prince B lashes enemy 2d6", rolls like 11" and moves the unit so it's now 16" away from the Noise Marines (too far to assault them.)

Lash has such an excellent 24" range and combined with the 12" wings move, it's very versatile. Last game Slaanesh + Tyranids vs. Orks + Blood Angels, I flew over and Lashed 2 of his Deffkoptas like 10" over within 12" of some ripper swarms.

Those pathetic ripper swarms killed like 3 helicopters that game due to my one Lash prince, and only suffered like 1 or 2 wounds.

Lash helps with
- assault troops getting into assault (2d6" extra charge range basically, cuz enemy moved 2d6" towards you.)
- getting enemy off an objective (2d6" off it)
- maximizing templates (can get 10-12 hits with flamers instead of 3-4.)
- keeping assaulters from assaulting you. (Enemy trygon, super killing machine with 6" move and fleet, 7 S6-S7 attacks on charge and re-roll all misses. Two princes can juggle him 4d6" away each turn (average 14" moving him backwards and he moves towards you only 9.5" each turn)

If going combat:
Nurgle prince, wings, warptime. S6 T6 with re-rolls to hit and wound, he'd still get utterly massacred if that big Trygon jumped on him.

Lash princes become a liability at large points value games because T5 and enemy will gun them down. In low points value games I lose them 0% of the time unless I'm specifically sending them on a suicide mission to distract enemy and win me the game. In huge games, you'll want something like a lash sorc. in a big terminator unit because it takes much more gunfire to kill him.

At small levels, you can't really afford a bling bodyguard for a sorcerer so the cheap 155 point monstrous creature prince does it so much better, it lashes just as well plus it's got good stats.

I can see the lashes utility against armies that don't have any defense against it, like hoods, SoB 5+ saves, GK ability, or the easiest defense of all, metal boxes. But honestly I've never been too afraid of it since i ditched horde orks back in 4th ed. T5 and only a 3+/5+ means it dies to anybody serious about killing it. Usually lash lists lean hard on it too. So when their 2 sources of lash dies in the first two turns (something I've done many times) or gets negated somehow, they tend to lose.

Sounds like they're playing it wrong if so. In small to mid games, they compliment an army greatly, they're not mandatory. An IG player bases his army around giant tanks, is that a weakness? No. Neither is the lash prince.

Lash princes with 12" flying move and 24" shooting can deploy behind terrain. They're eternal warrior 4 wounds T5 3+/5++ so they're not frail by any standards. It takes an average 14.4 imperial guard lascannons fired at one to kill it. Not many other things will survive 14.4 lascannon shots for only 155 points. It increases to 19.2 shots required if it stands halfway behind a building for cover and lash works excellently from such positions. It can also use a rhino as easy mobile 4+ cover often.

No one plays SoB or GK pretty much. Also and I've yet to play a single person who never had at least 1 foot squad. If I did, I'd use my 9 obliterators or some lascannon preds to make them into foot squads fast. (While my prince is out of LoS completely and unscratched.)
I'd also auto-win any KP game (33% of em) if he has all those AV10-12 transports which means every squad is twice as much KPs.

Most pick up games the marine players never field librarians so psychic hoods aren't an issue. I can hardly say that a specific build of 1 out of a dozen armies which makes them sub-optimal is a reason not to take them.

Princes are more mobile than any normal battleforce, marines running towards him cannot shoot 24", thus he's unscratched. He can lash someone 23" away to move them 25" away, and that squad is once again out of range. The only time a prince should get shot dead is if it is put in a bad position or the game is large (4000+ points or whatever) so that there are millions of long range guns on the field. Most move-and-shoot heavy weapons only contain a small number (not the 19.2 shots required to kill him.) Most groups of tons of guns (lootas) cannot move and shoot and thus pose no threat to him, he can fly out of their LoS, lash, then if they ever move, he gets out of LoS again.

If "anybody really serious about killing it" has to spend WAY more than 155 points of their army to do anything at all to it, then it's winning the game. Stuff shooting at my LolPrince is unable to kill my death-dealing Obliterators, my Noise Marines with 30 shots at 24" and S5 AP3 flamethrower, Plague marines with meltaguns, etc. As long as the prince keeps 4+ cover save, long distance (out of all enemy infantry ability), and is further away than my other army members, it can lash without shooting it being beneficial to the enemy. They won't put the 8 wounds on it needed for it to not lash them so my marines assault next turn.

Lash.....Please not lash!

Against the current codexes you'll be up agaisnt loads of vehicles which are immune to lash and facing melta and lascannons and plasma by the tonne.

Go Khorne or Tzeentch IMO


MoTZ Daemon Prince

Wings
Motz
Warptime
Wind of Chaos
185

MoK Daemon Prince

Wings
MoK
140

Personally Mark of Tzeentch is far more desireable than Khorne cause of the 4++ save.
you don't have to take powers but Warptime and Wind of Chaos means infantry have no armour saves or cover saves, and Warptime means he has a huge chance of killing anything he comes against.

Your point value for the MoT one is off - that config is 205 points.

Mech is King these days.
Mech counters Lash pretty hard.

Lash is nice, but the issue with it is: don't plan on relying on it and take what you get with it.
Don't put the prince in danger unless the benefit outweights the greater possibility of losing the prince as it does require LoS.

Lash was crazy scary when it came out in 4th ed.
It's now 5th ed and it's been out a while, it's decent, just not as bad as it sounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, lets not derail, no more lash.

As I had said before, I go for double Cheap-o princes. If anything wings are mandatory...

For Chaos Daemons army I run my DP with Mark of Tzeentch, Iron Hide, Bolt of Tzeentch and Daemonic Gaze. If I have the points I'll slap Unholy Might on him too.

He always serves me well.

(first post! )

Biomass wrote:For Chaos Daemons army I run my DP with Mark of Tzeentch, Iron Hide, Bolt of Tzeentch and Daemonic Gaze. If I have the points I'll slap Unholy Might on him too.

He always serves me well.

(first post! )

The iron hide is a bit of a waste. A 3+ that can be negated is only marginally better than the MoT 4++. Unholy might is ok, but without wings he won't be assulting much, and against vehicles, S5 2d6 pen is enough most of the time. Gaze is nice, but I really like breath on tzeentch princes. It can kill anything, and if you deep strike next to a disembarked unit, can fire both weapons at the vehicle, and the template can cover both the unit and the vehicle, having a chance to damage both. So MoT, bolt, breath ~ 170. Take 2-3, and you will do damage (though they tend to attract a bunch of fire, they at least have a chance to do their thing).

Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission

I know what you're all thinking, but it's not about the meta! I actually have a converted Deciever with wings and junk, plus my CSM are slaaneshesque so it fits.

Besides I use a dreadnought (chaosified Penitent engine) so the lash+wings DP balances out : P

asimo77 wrote:Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission

I know what you're all thinking, but it's not about the meta! I actually have a converted Deciever with wings and junk, plus my CSM are slaaneshesque so it fits.

Besides I use a dreadnought (chaosified Penitent engine) so the lash+wings DP balances out : P

I wouldn't worry about balance. CSM aren't a good codex, so use whatever you want and have fun with it. People who belly ache about how broken lash supposedly is are a bunch of whiners who don't know how easy it is to negate.

I'm personally I'm more afraid of a chaos dred, even as bad as they are, than a lash prince. I need anti tank fire power to take out the dread, but any weapon I take can damage the DP. Lash sorcerers? Now those are harder to deal with when they are in a squad in a rhino.

MoN, Wings, Warptime

Fits the fluff of my list and wrecks face. I would never leave home without one (or two )

notabot187 wrote:

asimo77 wrote:Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, and Lash of Submission

I know what you're all thinking, but it's not about the meta! I actually have a converted Deciever with wings and junk, plus my CSM are slaaneshesque so it fits.

Besides I use a dreadnought (chaosified Penitent engine) so the lash+wings DP balances out : P

I wouldn't worry about balance. CSM aren't a good codex, so use whatever you want and have fun with it. People who belly ache about how broken lash supposedly is are a bunch of whiners who don't know how easy it is to negate.

I'm personally I'm more afraid of a chaos dred, even as bad as they are, than a lash prince. I need anti tank fire power to take out the dread, but any weapon I take can damage the DP. Lash sorcerers? Now those are harder to deal with when they are in a squad in a rhino.

Yeah all my armies are geared for a casual level of play, but my Chaos dudes moreso. This is mostly because I have a lot of fluff and conversions to go along with said fluff. For me having fun is making a cool looking army that has a story behind it, then finding the best way to play with the models you have.

From the new locked thread, I wanted to say that I think MoK is a good buy simply because its a fairly cheap way to increase your DPs damage without worrying about a psychic test. Think of it as a 25% killing bonus for 8% increase in points.

MOK and wings