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IIRC: the deepest they could get is 4 deep(12 knights in 3x4)

most infantry will be 5 deep(in horde formation) and could be even deeper if just 5 wide.


Bretts do have the most 2+ armor of any army, but that is protecting T3 which is very easy to wound. they get taken down through forcing saves.

True, but steadfast is tested for after casualties, so if you hit them hard with a lance, you still might take away steadfast.

If it's a really big block, brets can just run circles around it and try to hit it in the flank, or just avoid it altogether and take down the weaker targets.

Not always valid / going to work, of course, but the clarification of lance formation did give brets a huge boost towards dealing with steadfast! Now at least if they hit a flank, their enemy definitely won't be steadfast (assuming they still have 6 knight alive after the charge)

Bretonnians can go 5 deep, the basic core units max out at 15

yes, however you will be facing Hordes that are at least 5 deep(10x5) and often 5 wide units that simply want to keep steadfast.

Slaves 5 wide and 10 deep will rarely lose steadfast against anything charging them. those Brets would have to kill 30 slaves and take no casualities in return to negate steadfast.


yes you could flank them, but when those units are that cheap there could easily be 4-6 of these units.

You forget, 2+ save, 5+ ward, a block of 15 bretonnian knights would have 13 attacks hitting on 3s killing on 2s, so that is 8 dead there, then you have horse attacks which should kill 5 more. Now you have killed 13, you will not lose anyone against the 11 attacks back. So the bretts are now up 13, +1 for charging, and +4 for ranks, then you throw in a unit banner. The bretts just won combat by 18. Plus bretts have to take a mandatory banner, so against skaven any good bretonnian player will take the banner of the lady and put it in his big block. Now those skaven don't have ranks and don't count as steadfast because the banner takes away the units ranks, so in essence that 5*10 block of skaven is only 5*1. So now their not steadfast and need to pass their leadership of double ones. I like the bretonnians chances.

We've been through this the banner of the lady removes combat resplution for ranks not steadfast.

Care to show working people?

I highly rate Vampire's in 8th Edition, as not only does the Horde rule help them a lot (especially with the Hat of Weapon Skill) but thanks to 'dead or fled' it can be a nasty war of attrition to grind them down. Distinct edge is also held in 'Watchtower' and 'Blood and Glory' by dint of being nigh-on immovable when they need to be.

Big unit of Skelly spears in Horde formation, couple of Vamps, BSB and that unit is ready to go. And if you're really paranoid, just keep a Necromancer on hand for raisey nonsense. Simples.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and 'ditto' to those pointing out Steadfast has to hold up to a round of combat or two. Take my Ogres. 16 Ironguts, Tyrant and Butcher. Time I'm done with you (and the lads are souped up via Gut Magic) do you really, honestly believe you'll still have more ranks than I?

@Pwnage: mounts don't get to make supporting attacks so it's only 3 horse attacks.


Vamps arn't as good because their magic got weaker(can't spam 1 dice spells as the 33% chance of wizard ending his phase isn't worth it)

Grey Templar wrote:@Pwnage: mounts don't get to make supporting attacks so it's only 3 horse attacks.

The guys on the outside don't make supporting attacks, they actually get to attack normally

Mr Mystery wrote:Oh, and 'ditto' to those pointing out Steadfast has to hold up to a round of combat or two. Take my Ogres. 16 Ironguts, Tyrant and Butcher. Time I'm done with you (and the lads are souped up via Gut Magic) do you really, honestly believe you'll still have more ranks than I?

Yeah, there’s all kinds of outrageously powerful units that can actually smash through the average number of ranks taken by your average block of infantry. But this relies on the deadly unit having vastly more points invested.

Thing is, ultimately it costs more points to buy the power needed to kill a rank of troops than it does to just buy another rank of troops. That’s a basic reality of the game.

It’s all good and well to build powerful units, but you have to factor in the idea that they are likely to face a sufficiently large block of infantry that they won’t be able to deny steadfast after a single turn.

When i use my bretonnians i will go through a unit every 2 turns, one to charge and overrun, and one to reform to face my next target.

UNREALPwnage wrote:When i use my bretonnians i will go through a unit every 2 turns, one to charge and overrun, and one to reform to face my next target.

Which is a wonderful, grand plan for having a totally awesome army, assuming you can confidently break any other unit in the game in a single turn… which is a ludicrous assumption.

Here’s a simple test for anyone claiming they can build a unit that can kill enough troops to deny any unit steadfast. Total the points of your super deadly unit, then figure out how many Empire Swordsmen those points will buy (they’re six points a pop). Figure out how many ranks that’ll be if they deploy five wide. Think about how many troops you’d have to kill to deny steadfast.

Then consider that Empire Swordsmen are not even the cheapest rank and file troops around, not by a long shot.

Grey Templar wrote:Vamps arn't as good because their magic got weaker(can't spam 1 dice spells as the 33% chance of wizard ending his phase isn't worth it)

Answer to this one is the much maligned Necromancer. A cheap and fairly competent caster, which can have exactly the spell you want to force through. Add in a couple, and points denial becomes a very real prospect once more. And I have to say, claiming they aren't as good because Spam Raising is gone seems a little harsh. You just have to exploit the other regions where they are highly competent.

sebster wrote:Thing is, ultimately it costs more points to buy the power needed to kill a rank of troops than it does to just buy another rank of troops. That’s a basic reality of the game.

Yet with 'Dead or Fled' there is a certain amount of wisdom to the big hard unit these days. Sure, there is always the risk of losing the unit to a particularly devious opponent (more on that later!) but if I have 1,200+ points tied up in a single unit (I'm playing 3,000 btw, to give a better image!) then my opponent HAS to deal with it. And unless he is capable of organising a multiple charge, it's a real uphill struggle and which thus far my opponents haven't quite figured out how to smash up.

sebster wrote:
[quote=UNREALPwnage
When i use my bretonnians i will go through a unit every 2 turns, one to charge and overrun, and one to reform to face my next target.

Which is a wonderful, grand plan for having a totally awesome army, assuming you can confidently break any other unit in the game in a single turn… which is a ludicrous assumption.

Here’s a simple test for anyone claiming they can build a unit that can kill enough troops to deny any unit steadfast. Total the points of your super deadly unit, then figure out how many Empire Swordsmen those points will buy (they’re six points a pop). Figure out how many ranks that’ll be if they deploy five wide. Think about how many troops you’d have to kill to deny steadfast.

Then consider that Empire Swordsmen are not even the cheapest rank and file troops around, not by a long shot.

I take 15 Kotr, 4 paladins, and the fey enchantress in my big block of knights. SO i am 7 ranks deep. That unit is expensive as hell, around 1000 points for how i kit our my guys. But that is 12 s6 attacks hitting on 3, 2 s5 attacks hitting on 2(the fey enchantress lets you pick someone to give +1 to hit to. 2 s6 hitting on 3s, 11s6 hitting on 3s, 16 s3 hitting on 4. That is a gak ton of attacks from a lance. No reasonable unit can stand up against it. 2+ armor, 2+ ward against magic, 5+ ward against everything else. Ogers especially hate that unit. The fey enchantress has spitefull glance. so when she is in base with your ogers they have to pass an initiative test or take a wound, so we are going to kill all your ogers.

you can be 100% sure those IGs have the Runemaw so on a 2+ they will bounce your glance onto the gnoblars sitting nearby.


those ironguts are just as likely to get the charge as you(which if they do you're dead)


even if you charge it takes 3 wounds to drop each ogre. you will average 9 Str 6 hits and 8 Str 3 hits. assuming a not unreasable Trollguts and Toothcracker buffs.

you will get 6 Str6 wounds and 2 Str 3 wounds vs T5


3 of the Str6 wounds are regenerated, and 1/3 of a Str3 wound(5+ armor, 4+ regen)


so on average charging KotR will kill 1 Irongut.


then the IGs swing assuming 3 wide. 6 Guts get to attack. 18 attacks. 4+ to hit. 9 hits, 2+ to wound. 8 wounds.

at -3 to your armor. 5+ armor save. rounding up to 3 saves = 5 dead knights.


if a Tyrant and/or a bruiser gets added that will result in about 2 more dead knights depending on armament.

Knights will not be stubborn as the ogres have 5 ranks with 1 extra(that got killed) and will be -1 to -2 to their Ld.

not to mention the chance of them failing their fear test at the start of combat and becoming WS1


how many points is that unit of KotR? the ironguts are 788 with a Bellower.

Less than 1000, but you also forget that I'm wounding you one a 2 with all my paladins and the fey enchantress' mount. I am also hurting you on 3s with my other troops. Your front rank will more than likely loose one wound per model for the fey enchantresses special rule. You are also attempting to cast against the fey enchantress who gets +6 to dispel, so i like my chances. I'm also not counting all my buffs and other virtues i take. SO you iron guts would kill 3 Knights top, Ill out rank you and cause more wounds. Then you will try to pass your leadership test at double 1s. When you fail i will run you down and kill the unit. If you get the charge i am screwed, but i should be able to get the charge because i am charging 3d6, because i have a virtue that gives me an additional d6 to my charge distance. So i am charging over 20 inches. SO i will be getting the charge on you, and you will all die

So uhm UNREAL, not to be rude or anything but... Are you undefeated?
Just askin.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Less than 1000, but you also forget that I'm wounding you one a 2 with all my paladins and the fey enchantress' mount. I am also hurting you on 3s with my other troops. Your front rank will more than likely loose one wound per model for the fey enchantresses special rule. You are also attempting to cast against the fey enchantress who gets +6 to dispel, so i like my chances. I'm also not counting all my buffs and other virtues i take. SO you iron guts would kill 3 Knights top, Ill out rank you and cause more wounds. Then you will try to pass your leadership test at double 1s. When you fail i will run you down and kill the unit. If you get the charge i am screwed, but i should be able to get the charge because i am charging 3d6, because i have a virtue that gives me an additional d6 to my charge distance. So i am charging over 20 inches. SO i will be getting the charge on you, and you will all die

the ogres are T5 with toothcracker so its 3+ to wound.

and i am being nice assuming only 1 toothcracker. i could easily have 2 or more.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Less than 1000, but you also forget that I'm wounding you one a 2 with all my paladins and the fey enchantress' mount. I am also hurting you on 3s with my other troops. Your front rank will more than likely loose one wound per model for the fey enchantresses special rule. You are also attempting to cast against the fey enchantress who gets +6 to dispel, so i like my chances. I'm also not counting all my buffs and other virtues i take. SO you iron guts would kill 3 Knights top, Ill out rank you and cause more wounds. Then you will try to pass your leadership test at double 1s. When you fail i will run you down and kill the unit. If you get the charge i am screwed, but i should be able to get the charge because i am charging 3d6, because i have a virtue that gives me an additional d6 to my charge distance. So i am charging over 20 inches. SO i will be getting the charge on you, and you will all die

Unless, of course, he has a gnoblar screen to absorb your charge.

And I really doubt the gutbunker isn't going to have the stubborn crown, which means he's probably going to stick around, and then you're locked in combat and hosed.

Seems like a weird place to discuss 2 of the lowest tier armies this edition? Isnt the thread title Which are the Best Armies in 8th Edition?

Grey, you're forgetting that many Brets are immune to fear and that against s5+ their ward is going to get better. You are also striking last. I have yet to see gut magic stay in play or get in play often enough to do anything you describe. Brets will get the charge off on you, they're faster and essentially get to reroll a charge die to do otherwise, you need good luck or they need bad luck. Brets may not like greatweapons, but they can deal with it.

Brets are the most survivable army out there. When i play ogers i always give one or two paladins heroic killing blow (i dont remember the virtue at the moment). As for my record it is 13-3, my losses are against my friend who plays orks and goblins. I hate fanatics.

bennyboy6189 wrote:Seems like a weird place to discuss 2 of the lowest tier armies this edition? Isnt the thread title Which are the Best Armies in 8th Edition?

I doubt Brets are lowest tier now with the new lance rules, they hit really hard. Against a huge horde I have this thing here called the trebuchet. Combined with peasant bowmen and maybe a dwellers below and that horde isn't looking so hot.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Brets are the most survivable army out there. When i play ogers i always give one or two paladins heroic killing blow (i dont remember the virtue at the moment). As for my record it is 13-3, my losses are against my friend who plays orks and goblins. I hate fanatics.

Define survivable? I've played against Brets, they are a tough nut to crack indeed. At the same time, however, there's numerous ways to drop them fast...Lore of Metal for starters, dwellers, pit of shades and sun even have a 50% casualty rate against them. Massed shooting armies also, tomb kings with their million shots a turn, dark elves with AP crossbows.

Anyway, point I'm trying to make is they are regarded where they are for a reason, lots of rocks to their paper. Granted, that unit you described sounds like something I would have to see across the table...

I also want to say I'm glad to see them competitive, in 7th they were such an afterthought, I never played against a list I was afraid of.


Anyway, to discuss the most POWERFUL armies...from personal experience, my Dark Elves have been awesome, if it wasn't for me having only 3 turns a game in tournies (damn time limit!) my record would be better than now. Skaven scare, though I've never played against them. Just the sheer volume of cheap models on the table "great! I took out your 50 strong slave unit! how many points was that?"...."100"

Allow me to add a preface to my post: I'm more or less a newb to both warhammer and dakka(first post ever).

With that said I have an idea for creating a more stable tier list for the hobby. Someone might have already devised the idea but I didn't come across it in this thread or the other that was linked earlier in this one.
My idea is that we build the tier list based on matchups between every army and every other army e.g HE v.s Skaven, HE v.s Dwarves, etc.
We examine and somehow figure out how likely one army is to beat another army given their options and then rank them according to who has the greatest number of favorable matchups.

To my admittedly limited knowledge this is how tiers are formed for fighting games. They're all based on individual matchups between characters only in this case individual matchups between armies. However, due to the vast gameplay differences and mechanics it may not work so well.

Ex:
Say Skaven will on average beat TK 7/10 times and Dwarves 5/10 times but DEs only get a 5/10 against TK and 5/10 against dwarve, well then Skaven would be higher tier due to having more favorable matchups. Keep in mind these example numbers are 100% BS but you get the idea.

Dark elves are deadly, their magic is impressive. The only problem is that their t 3

NateMurdah wrote:Allow me to add a preface to my post: I'm more or less a newb to both warhammer and dakka(first post ever).

With that said I have an idea for creating a more stable tier list for the hobby. Someone might have already devised the idea but I didn't come across it in this thread or the other that was linked earlier in this one.
My idea is that we build the tier list based on matchups between every army and every other army e.g HE v.s Skaven, HE v.s Dwarves, etc.
We examine and somehow figure out how likely one army is to beat another army given their options and then rank them according to who has the greatest number of favorable matchups.

To my admittedly limited knowledge this is how tiers are formed for fighting games. They're all based on individual matchups between characters only in this case individual matchups between armies. However, due to the vast gameplay differences and mechanics it may not work so well.

Ex:
Say Skaven will on average beat TK 7/10 times and Dwarves 5/10 times but DEs only get a 5/10 against TK and 5/10 against dwarve, well then Skaven would be higher tier due to having more favorable matchups. Keep in mind these example numbers are 100% BS but you get the idea.

Tiers are actually set up with Tourny results.

this favors popular armies like Empire, DE, and Dwarves.


One of the reasons these are popular armies is they are fairly easy to use and win with. this makes the generals that choose these armies generally better with their army then a general who chose a difficult one. howevver the general who chose the more difficult army is actually the better general because he has to think more about his tactics. and when this general does master his army he will blow the generals who chose the easy button out of the water.


this is why you usually see the more difficult armies at the bottom and the Easier armies at the middle to top, but the winners are generally a good sampling of all the different armies.

naturally all results are averaged so the extranious example of a TK player winning is drowned by all those TK players who lost.

Kinda harsh there GT.
I for one choose lizardmen because i liked the models, it was over a week till i found out that they're actually considered a good one.
So whailing on all those dwarven/empire/WoC players who like the fluff/models and aren't power gamers by calling them stupid seems kinda mean.

UNREALPwnage wrote:I take 15 Kotr, 4 paladins, and the fey enchantress in my big block of knights. SO i am 7 ranks deep. That unit is expensive as hell, around 1000 points for how i kit our my guys. But that is 12 s6 attacks hitting on 3, 2 s5 attacks hitting on 2(the fey enchantress lets you pick someone to give +1 to hit to. 2 s6 hitting on 3s, 11s6 hitting on 3s, 16 s3 hitting on 4. That is a gak ton of attacks from a lance. No reasonable unit can stand up against it. 2+ armor, 2+ ward against magic, 5+ ward against everything else. Ogers especially hate that unit. The fey enchantress has spitefull glance. so when she is in base with your ogers they have to pass an initiative test or take a wound, so we are going to kill all your ogers.

How many characters? Why thank the Great Maw I invested in the Sword of Anti-Heroes. 10 attacks, S10. Hitting your unit on a 3+. That's rather a lot of dead and dying Knights. And of course that's before the Ironguts weigh in with the Gut Charge (rack up another 6 S6 autohits...).

And I can so totally take that unit. Gnoblars out in front, oblique angle, to absorb and redirect your charge, then jump you in the flank. One unit shredded in double quick time, minimum of fuss. You ranks won't last long at all at that rate. And even if they do, I'm happy sitting in combat cracking skulls!

Oh yeah, and don't forget the spells. Extra S, T and Regeneration, plus being Stubborn tends to ensure my Gutbunker laughs in the face of fear, and tweaks the nose of terror. Hell, in both their outings today they postively wedgied Death!

Seems like a big argument between 2 armies now.