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I have played oger kingdoms five times and won all five times with my list. the fact is that i am going to win combat and run you down

UNREALPwnage wrote:I have played oger kingdoms five times and won all five times with my list. the fact is that i am going to win combat and run you down

5 and 0? Holy crap... Do they award medals for being undefeated for so long?!?! I wouldn't know, I only go 1 game undefeated at a time... That's almost a whole tournament of undefeatedness!!!

That's hardly a fact. That's only a fact if your opponent is low str, low t, crap save, and few attacks, AND few models. Chaos wrecks ogres face in H2H. Lizardmen have attrition characteristics. when Ogres are charged by cavalry they really struggle, Elves don't get into combat unless they know they can wreck you in one to two turns. Ogres are a good army... but they struggle mightily against well played armies that compete in all phases. Something they don't do. I have no idea how they are top tier consideration.

The fact is with OK that unless you're some super killy unit you won't cut down their sheer number of attacks while they stomp you in the ground. It's not fun to fight a huge unit of 9+ bulls, especially when (as O&G) I basically have to run it over with units/fanatics.

UNREALPwnage wrote:I have played oger kingdoms five times and won all five times with my list. the fact is that i am going to win combat and run you down

Then again I would question the competence of your opponents. Lots of Eggs in one basket, when using Cavalry, is a risk. Sure, it hits like a tonne of bricks, but it's all too easily drawn off, redirected, flanked etc. And with the (IMHO infinitely improved) charge Rules, Brets simply cannot guarantee the charge more pretty much ever again. There are aways to improve your chance, but when your entire strategy essentially hinges on a single roll of 3 dice (no matter the modifiers) you asking for the Dice Gods to give you an atomic Wedgie.

Would Brets be a significant challenge? I guess. Certainly the Lance is food for thought. But automatic win, or even 'uphill struggle'. Absolutely not. That belongs to Witch Elves with Okkam's Mind Razor on them, after he's Shadowed my 18 Bulls down to S1 and T1. That combat sucked. Made me piss my pants with laughter, but it still sucked. Bits of Ogre EVERYWHERE!


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And should I ever make it to the States, or you find yourself in South East England, do bring your army and we can put things to the test ya?

Mr Mystery wrote:Yet with 'Dead or Fled' there is a certain amount of wisdom to the big hard unit these days. Sure, there is always the risk of losing the unit to a particularly devious opponent (more on that later!) but if I have 1,200+ points tied up in a single unit (I'm playing 3,000 btw, to give a better image!) then my opponent HAS to deal with it. And unless he is capable of organising a multiple charge, it's a real uphill struggle and which thus far my opponents haven't quite figured out how to smash up.

Sure, really big units of elite troops are a valuable tool. I’m not arguing steadfast is unbeatable (see my post in the other thread) I’m just saying the posts here that you can defeat steadfast by simply killing enough troops to deny ranks is very dubious.

Slightly false representation there matey, as large units of cheap troops can be dealt with in more ways that just shredding them.

No, my representation was fine. I didn’t make any comment on dealing with steadfast, which as you noted can be done in all kinds of ways. My point was that people claiming there are sufficiently lethal units in the game that can just smash through any anvil unit is just wrong, and is only possible if the elite unit has vastly greater numbers of points invested in it.

My point is not ‘steadfast is awesome’ – it’s a good rule that allows large units of cheap troops to stay in the fight, but it has significant drawbacks. My point is that people claiming elite units can just smash through large blocks of infantry with pure killing power are wrong.

I think we're still in the learning curve stage of 8th Edition, with several 'rules du jour' receiving too much focus when determining 'who are besterest' in terms of armies. Give it another 6 months, particularly as FAQ's are still being updated we might see more reliable results creeping in.

Absolutely.

Steadfast is rough, it took 4 rounds (2 turns) for two of my hydras to munch through 60 goblins with a bsb inside, previous edition they would have been gone first turn to a possible flee/pursue.

So far I really like steadfast, adds a new dynamic to combat, it's no longer which side has the best killing power will win, it adds something the previous "outnumbering" combat res couldn't.

BUT this is the wrong thread to keep discussing it.

@UNREAL - that's a pretty cocky statement to make about winning combat and running down. I have no doubts it works great for you, but there's quite a few ways to handle deathstars in this edition

I think that's where ogre kingdoms fails on taking the next step towards being a dominant army, they are much better this edition to be sure, but imho they are a one trick pony: being good at melee. Two other armies are like that as well, WoC and LM, but unlike ogres they both have much higher survivability, only way for ogres to get it is if their butchers can get some +T or regen buffs on them.

From personal experience, the way I would rank them is (and I will only rank armies I have played, or played against):

Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarfs
Ogres, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Brettonians
Orcs and Goblins
Wood Elves

And the gap between them is small, I mean like, so small it's almost not even worth separating them tbh.

WIth 8th being so new, right now if you're a good general, you can win with any army outside of wood elves, as I think they did get pretty hosed.

greenbay924 wrote:

WIth 8th being so new, right now if you're a good general, you can win with any army outside of wood elves, as I think they did get pretty hosed.

Funny thing is that I heard WE can still shoot people to pieces. A dwarf player said he lost 60 dwarves in one match against them.

Was he doing it wrong?

Yes lmao dwarfs laugh at bows, yeah they hit on 4's including long range but then need 5's to wound and then they get a 4+save combined maybe with a 5+ ward if the dwarf players doing the right thing.

Quarrellers are on 5's to hit then 3's to kill, thunderers are on 4's then 3's to kill.

If he lost 60 it must of been a 10k point game or something, the only thing thats a problem are waywatchers because of killing blow.
And point an organ gun at the waywatchers and watch them all go bye bye, theres no way a dwarf general should loose to a shooty wood elf list unless he was drunk?

bennyboy6189 wrote:Yes lmao dwarfs laugh at bows, yeah they hit on 4's including long range but then need 5's to wound and then they get a 4+save combined maybe with a 5+ ward if the dwarf players doing the right thing.

Quarrellers are on 5's to hit then 3's to kill, thunderers are on 4's then 3's to kill.

If he lost 60 it must of been a 10k point game or something, the only thing thats a problem are waywatchers because of killing blow.
And point an organ gun at the waywatchers and watch them all go bye bye, theres no way a dwarf general should loose to a shooty wood elf list unless he was drunk?

Wait WE bows aren't S4?

Someone was pulling the wool over his eyes then.

They are once there within half range i believe but then they would be moving and shooting so 5's to hit and 5's to wound for the 1st 2 turns of shooting. Not many would make it within half range, and even then they will still be outshot.

bennyboy6189 wrote:They are once there within half range i believe but then they would be moving and shooting so 5's to hit and 5's to wound for the 1st 2 turns of shooting. Not many would make it within half range, and even then they will still be outshot.

I'll have to ask him what exactly went wrong. Maybe he lacked dwarf shooting (distinct possibility)

bennyboy6189 wrote:They are once there within half range i believe but then they would be moving and shooting so 5's to hit and 5's to wound for the 1st 2 turns of shooting. Not many would make it within half range, and even then they will still be outshot.

Wood Elves don't take penalties for either mooving and shooting, or long range.. I can't remember which. But I know that one of them doesn't hurt them. They are also str 4 within half or have killing blow within half depending on the unit. (90% sure it's move/shoot)

Since Woodelves outrange and have a better BS than Dwarfs, only the war-machines will be hitting the elves. A well played, well deployed elven army is only ever losing 1-2 models to cannons and 3-5 models to stone throwers. While the Welves are a bad army. They absolutely rape gunlines.

So trying to use that as an example is a poor one.


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as an aside: Welf arrow line, versus any gunline is the most boring.... game.... ever....

greenbay924 wrote:
Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarfs
Ogres, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Brettonians
Orcs and Goblins
Wood Elves

O&G's are middle tier with ogres because they can handle anything if they have got the right units.

greenbay924 wrote:
1Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarfs
2Ogres, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Brettonians,Orcs and Goblins
3Wood Elves

i like this tier system Greenbay has, and i agree that the distance between the tiers is very small.


Warhammer looks to be heading towards being a well balanced game with no army having a massive advantage over the others. certaintly there are certain builds that are strong, but no "I win" buttons.

Ragnar4 wrote:

bennyboy6189 wrote:They are once there within half range i believe but then they would be moving and shooting so 5's to hit and 5's to wound for the 1st 2 turns of shooting. Not many would make it within half range, and even then they will still be outshot.

Wood Elves don't take penalties for either mooving and shooting, or long range.. I can't remember which. But I know that one of them doesn't hurt them. They are also str 4 within half or have killing blow within half depending on the unit. (90% sure it's move/shoot)

Since Woodelves outrange and have a better BS than Dwarfs, only the war-machines will be hitting the elves. A well played, well deployed elven army is only ever losing 1-2 models to cannons and 3-5 models to stone throwers. While the Welves are a bad army. They absolutely rape gunlines.

So trying to use that as an example is a poor one.


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as an aside: Welf arrow line, versus any gunline is the most boring.... game.... ever....

Meh quarrellers then they dont outrange so your 5's then 3's to kill, there 4's then 5's and you get a nice 5+save. And your around the same points wood elfs cannont beat a dwarf gunline, bows are a joke on overpriced weak elves. If hes mean and use organ guns or an anvil or even worse thorek then its even worse for the poor welves player=(. Welves raping gunlines gotta be the worst thing ive read since reading posts on this forum.

Your quarrellers are move or fire, so the wood elf bows simply dance around you all game. More so if they simply bounce a tree in front of your gunline to give another -1 or, potentially, block LOS entirely.

Dont really want to start an argument but move 5 and can still shoot hardly going to stay out of my arc till maybe turn 4 unless you march.

Hawk riders can as they can fly but come on archers dancing around over exxaggerated, anyway like i said pointless argument as we all know wood elfs struggle vs high armoured armies as bows bounce off and they do get totally out shot vs dwarfs.(not talking about a full dryacha/tree army)

yeah, the dwarves will be gitting full benifit from their armor save and that's if you make the 5+ to wound T4 with Str3 bow fire.


Dwarf quarrallers have the same range as the Welves, better strength, and can actually stand being hit. every Welf hit is a Welf down. and now those Dwarf artillery pieces can pick out Welf characters even easier with only Buildings and hills blocking LoS.

Move 5 + D3+2" tree sing move for the wood theyre in giving them a soft cover penalty when you fire at them. Very easy to leave you with only 1 unit able to draw LOS. Plus they ahve skirmishers that can march and shoot quite effectively.

They lack in warmachines, but a good WE player will still put the hurt on dwarves. A good thing that dwarves will now occasionally get a charge off at least...

The 'best' army is one that does not require this thread to crown it so.

IMO.

syanticraven wrote:Seems like a big argument between 2 armies now.

It's not so much a "big argument" as more like two guys each claiming they have more junk than the other one...

Valete,

JohnS

While I'm happy to see TK move from the dustbin of history to the middle tier...I'm not sure they're not still underrated when built properly. I haven't lost with them in 8th, and in 7th, I only won about 40% of the time. With step up for the TG's tomb blades, volley fire allowing the archers to form into melee blocks without losing many shots, and the ability to throw off 20+ d6 worth of magic against 4-6 DD (okay, +3ish for an empire army with priests), and (finally!) some really good armor for fighty characters (TK with ASS, dawnstone, and GW is naaaaasty) my skellies have been rolling over everything in their path without much fuss. Next week, they'll face an undefeated khorne daemon army...I don't expect to trounce the list (I had to ask the guy to bring it off the shelf, it's so strong that he doesn't play it any more), but I'll almost certainly give it a good run.


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EmilCrane wrote:no way a dwarf general should loose to a shooty wood elf list unless he was drunk?

well...they are dwarves...so it is quite possible that he was, in fact, drunk...

@march - I've been wanting to play against TK in 8th with my dark elves ever since I finished the army. It's hard to find TK players, I wanted to see how well their shooting/magic benefited from the changes. Looking on here and else where, I hear lots of people's winning % increasing.

Thought I would chime in here with my thoughts. I started with what greenbay had and added my changes in bold

Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarfs Vampire Counts;
Daemons, Brettonians, High elves, Orcs and Goblins, scaven
Tomb kings, Ogres;
Wood Elves

I moved up vamps because if they really want to they can dominate the magic phase while maintaining combat potential and numbers. The ability to have multiple extra dice and knowing all of any lore is very powerful.

Orcs and goblins moved up because their shooting is decent, their numbers are incredible, and they have a tool for everything. Str4,T4 in the first round of combat for 40 savage orcs isnt anything to sneer at either.

High elves arent quite as good as people make them out to be because in the end they are expensive T3 guys with no armor (dark elves are noticeably cheaper). The prevelance of shooting in the higher tier and the advent of step up (a great rule in general) really hurts them and their massive combat output cant always counter it.

Ogres go down and tomb kings join them because they are really one trick ponies and if you can beat that they are doomed. Ogres fall to pokes in the eye over time (lack toughness), and tomb kings are just desperately in need of a new codex. Getting off all of the magic you want doesn't help that much when all you can do is fire that stone thrower once more.

I put scaven in the second tier but could be convinced they should go up one level. It really depends on what build you go with.

cypher wrote:
Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarfs Vampire Counts;
Daemons, Brettonians, High elves, Orcs and Goblins, scaven
Tomb kings, Ogres;
Wood Elves

I have seen Scaven I think their top/middle tier border line and warriors of chaos are the same but the thing I think lets WOC down is their lack of range.

greenbay924 wrote:@march - I've been wanting to play against TK in 8th with my dark elves ever since I finished the army. It's hard to find TK players, I wanted to see how well their shooting/magic benefited from the changes. Looking on here and else where, I hear lots of people's winning % increasing.

You in Green Bay? Come down to La Crosse, I'll play you...or maybe we could set up a side game at next year's Adepticon.

As for shooting, our shooting didn't get better per se, what happened was that our shooty units, because of the ability to volley fire, were able to mob up into blocks that make decent melee combatants. Three units of ten bowmen in 7th edition, one unit of 30 in 8th. Very little difference in shooting efficiency, but a block of 30 skeletal bowmen is a far more credible melee mudpit than a line of ten or a 5x2 block.

On the magic front, OMG!!! Everyone gets the same PD and DD from winds of magic. The difference is that, since incantations don't use PD, TK players can effectively have an unlimited number of spells. Those spells are, of course, individually weaker than most college magic, but quantity has a quality all its own, and even fighty characters are tossing off (weak) incantations. The inevitable consequence is that the larger the game, the more dice worth of spells a TK player has every turn...while the DD on the other side of the table doesn't scale at all. Throw in the fact that TK do use PD for bound spells and a TK with wizard hat, and it's not hard for a TK player to use all of the PD available to him AND his incantations, completely overwhelming the enemy's magic defense. In a 2k point game, I usually have a king, a prince, a priest, a high priest, the casket, the ruby ring, and the banner of the undying legion. Effectively, my spell dice outnumber my opponent's dispel dice two or three to one...and he's always going to hold back three dice off the top to dispel the light of death. Realistically, that means 1-3 dispel dice are left to oppose a blizzard of incantations and two bound spells, with the consequence that my bowmen and catapult are going to shoot twice a turn, every turn, and there's nothing my opponent can do to stop it. Once my 7x4 block of TG is stuck in, They're getting 15 extra killing blow attacks per turn, which can be as devastating as any college of magic spell. My TK bretheren like to complain that 8 points is overpriced for a skeletal bowman, but when he's virtually guaranteed to shoot twice a turn, he's about as good as if he only cost 5 or 6 points.

@march - Sadly I'm in California, I'm just a cheesehead at heart! I was thinking of going to Adepticon, as it's like the holy grail of US tournies, I just have to talk some friends into going with me. If I do, we're definitely getting in a side game...

AS to your TK stuff, that sounds about right to what I was thinking when I read the book. The fact they are not winds of magic reliant means they can forgo the "nerf" it put on the magic phase.

As far as cost goes...8 points seems like a lot when they have the stat line of a 3 point goblin. But how much do you add in points for something that ALWAYS hits on 5s, is unbreakable, and ItP? Even if you value each one at 1 points, it comes to 6, so not too overcosted imho.

My brother just got a TK army in trade for his Hordes army, I'll have to pass some of this on to him.

@cypher - after further play test, even with Teclis I think High Elves should be where you moved them to. They are just way too expensive.

I don't think OnG should be moved up, they are my main army and main love of the game, but they lack any punch to go with their numbers. (you either give up numbers for some punch, in which case you take away our advantage, or you go for numbers and don't have any punch behind it). That and animosity can single handedly lose you games. As for VC moving up, it takes a lot of points in a very niche build to do what you're saying, though the potential for 6 extra power dice is scary! They should really fall in between the top two, so I guess it's just user's pick on where they go.

The rest I pretty much agree with.

Yea, i probably didn't give anomosity as much weight as it should get. Without it they currently have a good codex. With it they randomly lose game based on on or two throws every few games.

It's actually even more than that. With the generally low LD of the army, and the high numbers, you have to keep your army bunched up, and if you fail a roll with one of your units in front, it affects both it, and the unit behind it.

the op asked which are the best armies of 8th. well every army has improved though at the bottom of the list i think are the bretonions. those that go clear to the top i think are:
WOC
Skaven
DE
and finally Deamons

every other army seems to fall in the middle though.

O&G recived a huge push, they are still falling flat on the animosity.
HE? na ya, not much has changed for then, a tweek here and there.
TK? dont know yet new AB coming very soon.
Empire? all around improvements. shooting, combat, and magic. the all rounders keep their place. best army for beginners IMO.
WE? id rate them an ok army but not that well improved by 8th (yesalot of small things but nothing that screams use me.)
ogre kingdoms? absolutely improved, but are those improvements going to be enough against a halfway skilled opponent? they still lack numbers and armour.
BoC? not to sure here, id place them in with theh empire in hardness now, so a well grounded army thats flexabe and fits in well and recives TLC from the new rules.
Vamps?hard to say, they loose out on some things. gain in others. all in all i think they stay hard, but loose flexability.
dwarves? they were hard in 7th (though crackable) in 8th they are just sick for what they can do. mind ther are a few things where they are going to get eaten, thats the huge elite infantry blocks, compitant shooting and quicker charges from foes. heading the other way it wil be OMG artillery, realls really hard to shift units, and ugly counter magic. Remember, a dispell scroll is now limited to one per army, but those pesky garden gnomes can buy rune after rune. so they go to the head of the anti magic. (again)