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daedalus wrote:They hit really really hard, but for 2-3 times the amount you spend on a power blob.

?

6 ogryn costs 250 points. 30 dudes with 3 power weapons and a commissar with a power weapon with 3x flamers and meltabombs costs 250 points.

As for Ld, remember that they're stubborn. That said, I think I'd always keep a regimental standard nearby. Rerollable Ld7 is pretty much the same as Ld9, which is pretty good, especially given that ogryn are so difficult to wound in close combat that you tend not to have to worry so much.

Also, like ratlings, I think that it's easy to underestimate their firepower. In the case of 250 points of ogryn (6 of them), you're doing 18 S5 attacks followed up by 25 S6 attacks. If they charge into lightning claw terminators the end result of the first bout of carnage is 2 surviving terminators against 5 surviving ogryn. Things do not end well for the terminators. Likewise, they go through regular tac marines easily and even stand a pretty decent change against things like tervagons.

Really it's the vulnerability to S10 that I think precludes them from the top tier of guard units. You have to actually be kind of careful with their use, which is unfortunate as they're advertised as a unit that you don't need to be careful with how you use them.

And hellhounds are neat because they have a pretty monstrous range (compared to the other variants), and you can twist the template however you want. This means you're actually likely to rack up at least a couple of kills per game, something which can't be said of its siblings.

Ailaros wrote:
6 ogryn costs 250 points. 30 dudes with 3 power weapons and a commissar with a power weapon with 3x flamers and meltabombs costs 250 points.

I was considering the addition of a Lord Commissar and possibly a Chimera (which is how I ran ogryn last), versus a 20 man powerblob with a priest, which is how I ran that last. 335 (or even 280, less the chimera) vs 225. So it's really not nearly twice as expensive as I previously feared, but I know which one I'd rather have on my side. Especially since the blob is stubborn also, and is at least scoring.

ElCheezus wrote:
If you want a fast 12-12-10 vehicle that can deliver 24" range Melta shots at which hit half the time, put a MM on the front of a Hellhound. It hits about as often, and if there are no targets, the Inferno Cannon is vastly superior to a Heavy Flamer. The only loss is a small AP1 blast, for the targets the Hellhound variants shouldn't go after anyway. I personally found the MM even to be a waste, since a single BS 3 shot isn't consistent enough.

Yeah, after seeing the analysis of how a BS3 blast hits a vehicle about half the time, I looked at these options.

Devil Dog with hull HF = 120 points
Hellhound with hull MM = 145 points

So 25 points for the str6, 12" range template, with armor/AT ability basically identical on both vehicles.

My army happens to have a ton of flamer power, HFs on the hulls of all my tanks, plus a few more inside, and lots of blast templates too. So I don't really need flame cannons. But I lack heavy AT firepower, so a couple of Devil Dogs is a more economical choice for me.

I agree that ratlings are underestimated. I like them for cheaply dropping a couple wounds on an MC.

Ailaros wrote:Really it's the vulnerability to S10 that I think precludes them from the top tier of guard units. You have to actually be kind of careful with their use, which is unfortunate as they're advertised as a unit that you don't need to be careful with how you use them.

And there is a unit that is not????

daedalus wrote: Especially since the blob is stubborn also

So are ogryn. The real problem is that they don't get the free reroll or the +Ld of the commissar. They're still good against morale in close combat, but you kind of have to keep a regimental standard around, I'd suppose.

Anpu42 wrote:And there is a unit that is not????

The point is that it matters a lot more with ogryn. Shoot a demolisher cannon at 250 points of guardsmen, and you're probably going to thin the herd by about a sixth. Shoot the same cannon at 250 points in ogryn and you are looking at, at a minimum, 50% casualties. Likewise, a huge cloud of guardsmen are going to laugh at broadsides with twin-linked railguns. Ogryn... not so much.

i love rough riders but they require luck n planning or will die

which is why you always take a bunch of them I don't think I'd ever take riders in a squad size less than 10, or fewer than 2 units of them.

Ogryn are good in very limited roles against very limited opponents. They have glaring weaknesses that any competent opponent will exploit and even at their strongest could be replaced by something far cheaper with little fall off in quality.

When the best you can say about them is that they're almost as good in assault as an infantry platoon... maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

There is much competition for fast attack slots for Valkyries and Vendettas are by far the best choices. Vendettas 3 TL Las cannons on a fast skimmer is just awesome. Even regular Valkyries with Missle pods are pretty good vs hordes.

Rough Riders. Just aren't good. Only good for one charge because they just get rapid fired or counter charged after and with True line of sight they can get shot and with only a tshirt save and big models don't always have cover they die pretty quick.

Hell Hound doesn't get much use because of heavy flamers being plentiful as hull mounted weapons. Sure the range is nice but if every land vehicle you got sports a heavy flamer not much reason to take these over Chimeras when they cost as much as Vendettas and everyone plays marines so the ap4 flamer isn't so good.. If Hellhounds had upgraded flame storms strength 6 ap 3 that could fire ranged they would be awesome.

Devil Dog really isn't that much more effective then veterans with 3 meltas guns in a chimera. Sure range is slightly better but you only have 1 shot and the veterans are scoring. Again you competing with Vendettas for a similar anti tank role.

Banewolves sound awesome on paper but in real games the opponent kills them first as they are short ranged and eat meltas quick. Also compete with Vendettas with slots.

Sentinels are not to shabby as Armored once are actually decent to tie up no power fist Marines in combat and scout ones have outflank to get side shots at vehicles. But Vendettas do the outflanking vehicle killing better. If sentinels could be purchased as part of a infantry platoon upgrade like the last codex you actually would see some around.

Elites there really aren't any good ones other then the Psyker Battle Squad, Marbo and allied daemon hunter units like the Inquisitor with Tarot and 2 mystics with possible retinue, the callidus asssasin, and grey knight terminators.

Ogryn really suck because of how expensive they are. They cost like a terminator and do not perform like a terminator. They don't have a power weapon or fist option so can get stuck in with things with good saves. Terminators do not. No Assault vehicle option for guard makes them reach combat a turn slower. You need to take a Lord commisar with a powerfist and a Chimera to make Ogryns remotely viable (need the boast in leadership in case you lose combat and you need a power weapon and a transport to get around with out getting nailed by strength 10. Might as well give them Yarrick. When you did this you might as well ally in some Grey Knight Terminators or pick up a power weapon blob for the large points cost. Slightly cheaper cost and bonehead with leadership 8 with power weapon or fist options would have made Ogryn decent as a counter assault unit.

Storm Troopers just cost to much. 5 storm troopers with 3 meltas costing 5 points more then 10 veterans with 3 melta guns for the unreliable deepstrike option and a 4+ save is too much. The deepstrike option is unreliable might as well take mounted veterans they score.

Ratlings aren't good either because of the mech enviroment and snipers being not all that great. You pay too much per shot. There isn't anything to shoot at till you crack open a metal box and then they got cover from hiding behind the hulk their metal box or being in the blown up wreck of it.

I keep looking at the discussion and seeing people missing the point of Units. To me a good unit is one that is used properly in both its Job and Synergy. I am not trying to pick on anyone with this Non-Angry Ranting, but this is the thought that were coming up in my mind as I was reading all of this. I also think all of the Mathhammer is Overrated. My suggestion is read over all of my comments and do the Mathhammer later after you have hat time to think about it. Read and enjoy the advice and Humor I am trying put into it.

Rough Riders
-They are a Rapid Reaction, Flanking and Reconnaissance Force.
-Now under the Rules of 40k they normally can be used as a Rapid Reaction Force.
-They work grate for taking on Heavy Units, MEQ’s, Monstrous Creatures, and AV: 10 Armor.
-What should you not use them for AV: 11, Storm Shield Terminators and fast moving Vehicles.
-How to make use of the “Reconnaissance Force”, use creed to give them Outflank and when they show you should be close enough to something to Cripple it like a Havoc Squad or Broadsides.

Hellhound
-Well what can you say, I plan on giving mine a Heavy Flamer to and use them for Mob Destruction.
-It is fast with a turret to, so you can also skirt around the edges of the field at 12” a turn and just catch other infantry units on the edge of your range.
-With a Strength of 6 it is also a good unit for hunting Skimmers.

Devil Dog
-24” Large Blast S8, AP-1
-Yes it is good for Anti-Armor, but I keep thinking Obliterators, Nids and Broadsides.
-I don’t know about you but I see another unit that Creed can abuse.

Banewolf
-AP-3 Wound on a 2+, AP-3, why are shooing at Monstrous Creatures, Terminators and Broadsides, go for the Crisis Suits and MEQ’s.

Ratlings
-They have Stealth and they are Cheap,
-So they have a Toughness of 2, they should be having a 3++ Save from the cover they are in.


Ogryn
-They are Large, tough and Suborn units.
-If you have Kell they are Leadership 10.
-If you are fighting Terminators with them you are asking to get then killed.
-Put them near your HQ and/or Ratings, this will most like keep the HQ and Ratings from being Shot at.
-As a Counter Charge unit there is only one to say “[The sounds of an Automatic Shotgun] and here comes Christmas.”

Stormtroopers
-I think they almost out Marine Marines
-They have a BS of 4, a 4+ Save and Hot Shot Las-Weapon are AP-3 “AP-3”. They are Vengeance Rounds without the Exploding Factor.
-So they are only S3, your Marines Get No Save!
-They can also Deep Strike almost as good as Blood Angles, they can Get a 3+ Cover Save in the right environment and Outflank [This includes the Chimera] or Infiltrate and Pin.
-In my Opinion, they make Marine Scouts took like under equipped armatures.

All different jobs there, all different jobs...

concerning assault choices:

Vendetta is a pure light to medium tank hunter with a secondary transport option. And yes it excels there doing damage. But:

2 things to consider: Vendetta is a glasscannon. One hit on it and 3 twin lascannons are disabled. One destroyed result and 3 twin lascannons are no more.
This is easy to achieve as long as the vendetta wants to shoot, because it will not get any cover saves most of the time which is the second thing.

Armoured Sentinels on the other hand do less damage but tend to be much more resilient. you get 2 with LCs for the price of 1 vendetta. Sounds stupid, but:
It is easy to cover them, because you only have to cover one of them 50% to receive a cover save for the whole squadron. 1 hit on the squadron silences just 1 las and 1 keeps shooting. So against 1 hit from the opponent the sentinels will get cover if you know what you do, so 50% improvement and one will keep firing -> another 50% improvement and you acually GAIN 1 lascannon comparing the situation with a hit vendetta.
And Sentinels can defeat SM squads even with fist in close combat or at least tie them up. Even better: Bloodcrushers just do plain nothing against them.

So not always min maxing guns is in your favour.

Rough riders: keep them in reserve and you will solve the dying problem for 2 turns. Use proper terrain and you can avoid it for the game. The problems of rough riders and why to take more of them is not because they are shot dead easily, but because they need to roll decent and have no backups except for more of them.

Assault tanks:

Some tend to keep forgetting that we talk about fast vehicles here. You just cannot compare a 6" moving hull flamer with 12" moving flamer with s6 and 12" range. And side armour 12. this is perfect to block/tank shock enemy assault troops without losing much firepower and without much danger being wrecked in a counterassault.

Elite choices:

All of them are good (except for ratling, who are to say the least not necessary).

Ogryns are decent shooters and very killy close combat fighters. But their main strength is t5 3 wounds. They are very very hard to kill. even a demo cannon has to hit on target, will get 1 ogryn if placed properly (big bases, yay!)and the ogryn will get cover. And honestly who shoots with a railgun on ogryn if he can get scoring chimeras, vendettas, manticores....
Speaking of manticores: This is a real threat to ogryns due to their chance of getting 3 shots. But even manticore have different things to do than to kill 1 or 2 ogryn...

stormtroopers are expendable disruptors with nice anti tank capability. best used in chimera outflanking. Meltavets have to move up the whole game and cannot even be thrown into the fray properly because they need to score. This does not fit well with meltaguns. 4+ armour is great, the low model count too (visibility) and they even make up good close assault fighters against opposing guard or weak eldar models or similar.

Psykers can be devastating and useless. They depend heavily on the opponent. Their blast shooting attack is rather meh, we have better blast weapons.

Anpu42 wrote:
Devil Dog
-24” Large Blast S8, AP-1
-Yes it is good for Anti-Armor, but I keep thinking Obliterators, Nids and Broadsides.
-I don’t know about you but I see another unit that Creed can abuse.

actually, They're small blast template, not large.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Nazdreg- wrote:All different jobs there, all different jobs...

concerning assault choices:

Vendetta is a pure light to medium tank hunter with a secondary transport option. And yes it excels there doing damage. But:

2 things to consider: Vendetta is a glasscannon. One hit on it and 3 twin lascannons are disabled. One destroyed result and 3 twin lascannons are no more.
This is easy to achieve as long as the vendetta wants to shoot, because it will not get any cover saves most of the time which is the second thing.

Armoured Sentinels on the other hand do less damage but tend to be much more resilient. you get 2 with LCs for the price of 1 vendetta. Sounds stupid, but:
It is easy to cover them, because you only have to cover one of them 50% to receive a cover save for the whole squadron. 1 hit on the squadron silences just 1 las and 1 keeps shooting. So against 1 hit from the opponent the sentinels will get cover if you know what you do, so 50% improvement and one will keep firing -> another 50% improvement and you acually GAIN 1 lascannon comparing the situation with a hit vendetta.
And Sentinels can defeat SM squads even with fist in close combat or at least tie them up. Even better: Bloodcrushers just do plain nothing against them.

So not always min maxing guns is in your favour.

Rough riders: keep them in reserve and you will solve the dying problem for 2 turns. Use proper terrain and you can avoid it for the game. The problems of rough riders and why to take more of them is not because they are shot dead easily, but because they need to roll decent and have no backups except for more of them.

Assault tanks:

Some tend to keep forgetting that we talk about fast vehicles here. You just cannot compare a 6" moving hull flamer with 12" moving flamer with s6 and 12" range. And side armour 12. this is perfect to block/tank shock enemy assault troops without losing much firepower and without much danger being wrecked in a counterassault.

Elite choices:

All of them are good (except for ratling, who are to say the least not necessary).

Ogryns are decent shooters and very killy close combat fighters. But their main strength is t5 3 wounds. They are very very hard to kill. even a demo cannon has to hit on target, will get 1 ogryn if placed properly (big bases, yay!)and the ogryn will get cover. And honestly who shoots with a railgun on ogryn if he can get scoring chimeras, vendettas, manticores....
Speaking of manticores: This is a real threat to ogryns due to their chance of getting 3 shots. But even manticore have different things to do than to kill 1 or 2 ogryn...

stormtroopers are expendable disruptors with nice anti tank capability. best used in chimera outflanking. Meltavets have to move up the whole game and cannot even be thrown into the fray properly because they need to score. This does not fit well with meltaguns. 4+ armour is great, the low model count too (visibility) and they even make up good close assault fighters against opposing guard or weak eldar models or similar.

Psykers can be devastating and useless. They depend heavily on the opponent. Their blast shooting attack is rather meh, we have better blast weapons.

How is the AV12 Vendetta, more fragile than the AV12 Sentinel?
and the Vendetta is good at hunting heavy tanks and MCs as well.

alarmingrick wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:
Devil Dog
-24” Large Blast S8, AP-1
-Yes it is good for Anti-Armor, but I keep thinking Obliterators, Nids and Broadsides.
-I don’t know about you but I see another unit that Creed can abuse.

actually, They're small blast template, not large.

Sorry somtime my finger type faster than my mind.

Ailaros wrote:The primaris psyker is cool because he's so cheap and can actually do stuff. Lightning arc doesn't have the hugest range of targets in the world, but in a pinch he can be at least 70 points of obnoxious if you roll well with it. Were I unwilling to throw down an extra 10 points for a 3x melta CCS (like, say, when running air-cav where providing yet another unit with a ride can be a challenge), he's probably the way to go.

Good thoughts, but I have to admit I'm wondering what unit you'd put him with?
Big blob for Nightshroud?
Plasma Vets or PCS in a Chimera for extra dakka?

How is the AV12 Vendetta, more fragile than the AV12 Sentinel?

did you read my explanation?

1 vendetta vs 2 sentinels -> 1 av12 vehicle vs 2 av12 vehicles so 200% resilience to the sentinels.
vendetta -> no cover if it wants to shoot
sentinels -> cover even if they shoot -> another 100% resilience enhancement to each sentinel and therefore a 200% enhancement.

so in fact: 2 covered sentinels are worth 4 vendettas when it comes to getting shot at.

concerning shooting: 3/4 of the detta shooting hits, 1/2 of the sentinel shooting so concerning shooting

4 vendettas score 8 hits, which would equal 16 sentinels shooting. If we reckon 2 sentinels a vendetta concerning points so we will see that a vendetta shoots 200% better than the equal costing sentinels.

so sentinels are 4x as resilient and 1/2x as killy. The rest is personal gusto.

It doesnt help that a Vendetta is a lot more threatening to look at than a sentinel

Guess which one will get anti armor fire

-Nazdreg- wrote:All different jobs there, all different jobs...

concerning assault choices:

Vendetta is a pure light to medium tank hunter with a secondary transport option. And yes it excels there doing damage. But:

2 things to consider: Vendetta is a glasscannon. One hit on it and 3 twin lascannons are disabled. One destroyed result and 3 twin lascannons are no more.
This is easy to achieve as long as the vendetta wants to shoot, because it will not get any cover saves most of the time which is the second thing.

All the fast attack choices are glass cannons. One hit on a Banewolf/Devildog/Hellhound has a higher chance of making it useless. An immobilized vendetta is a lascannon battalion. An immobilized banewolf is useless.
A vendetta has 3 separate strong guns so weapon destroyed matter 1/3rd as much as the other vehicles. A lascannon sentinel gets his lascannon blown off? SHOOTING OVER. A devildog has its melta cannon shot off? 130 points wasted. If you buy squads of sentinels, they also become immediately destroyed on immobilized results, making them easily killable with even GLANCEs. 3 twin-linked lascannons is incomparably superior to 2 plain lascannons with BS3 on sentinels (2 LC sentinels is 140 points, a vendetta is 130)

Armoured Sentinels on the other hand do less damage but tend to be much more resilient. you get 2 with LCs for the price of 1 vendetta. Sounds stupid, but:
It is easy to cover them, because you only have to cover one of them 50% to receive a cover save for the whole squadron. 1 hit on the squadron silences just 1 las and 1 keeps shooting. So against 1 hit from the opponent the sentinels will get cover if you know what you do, so 50% improvement and one will keep firing -> another 50% improvement and you acually GAIN 1 lascannon comparing the situation with a hit vendetta.
And Sentinels can defeat SM squads even with fist in close combat or at least tie them up. Even better: Bloodcrushers just do plain nothing against them.

So not always min maxing guns is in your favour.
Then bringing any fast attacks is a bad idea. Sentinels SUCK on firepower/survivability for cost ratios. Scout sentinels can be blown to shreds or made completely useless by basic bolters. Armored sentinels cost a lot and are still fragile and almost no firepower.

Rough riders: keep them in reserve and you will solve the dying problem for 2 turns. Use proper terrain and you can avoid it for the game. The problems of rough riders and why to take more of them is not because they are shot dead easily, but because they need to roll decent and have no backups except for more of them.
Any good opponent will have no particular problem shooting them dead. Putting a unit in reserves doesn't get them safely into melee combat. Rough riders lack Scout or Infiltrate. And no, you can't count on boards having an infinite amount of terrain to get combat units into combat. If so, Khorne Berserker armies would be impossible to lose with.

Assault tanks:

Some tend to keep forgetting that we talk about fast vehicles here. You just cannot compare a 6" moving hull flamer with 12" moving flamer with s6 and 12" range. And side armour 12. this is perfect to block/tank shock enemy assault troops without losing much firepower and without much danger being wrecked in a counterassault.
That's your assumption. You are forgetting that 2 hellhounds (two heavy flamers, 2 bounce-flamers) cost as much as 5 chimeras (with a total of 10 heavy flamers.) You're also forgetting that just as you said that 2 sentinels are harder to kill than 1 vendetta, 5 chimeras are immeasurably safer than 2 hellhounds. A fast vehicle with a short-ranged suicide gun just gets itself killed more quickly. A hellhound is a free kill to those same units it can "tank shock." Armor 10 in combat means S4 marines can destroy it even without a powerfist. Not to mention most armies will have meltaguns insta-kill it.

Elite choices:

All of them are good (except for ratling, who are to say the least not necessary).

Ogryns are decent shooters and very killy close combat fighters. But their main strength is t5 3 wounds. They are very very hard to kill. even a demo cannon has to hit on target, will get 1 ogryn if placed properly (big bases, yay!)and the ogryn will get cover. And honestly who shoots with a railgun on ogryn if he can get scoring chimeras, vendettas, manticores....
Speaking of manticores: This is a real threat to ogryns due to their chance of getting 3 shots. But even manticore have different things to do than to kill 1 or 2 ogryn...
Ogryns are "decent shooters"? Lol. 12" guns with no AP at all, 130 points for 3... yeah right. A squad of 10 vets with 3 plasma guns and +1 BS costs 15 points less... 12" range AP- and 3 shots per 40 points makes that just silly.
T5 5+ save is WORSE than T4 3+ save in most cases.
Shoot 10 Ogryns at marines. 3.3 wounds done.
Shoot 10 Ogryns at ogryns. 5 wounds done.
If enemies were silly enough to use useless Ogryns, Sniper Rifles might actually be somewhat viable. They wound ogryns on 4+ with 5+ save, instead of marines on 4+ with 3+ save.
They fail against combat stuff and they can be gunned down easily enough by shooting things. Autocannons tear Ogryns to pieces on 2+ while only killing marines 1/3rd of the time. Heavy bolters and heavy flamers also do far more damage to ogryns. They have no main strength.

If they're standing in a forest for cover, they can't reach any enemy with their 12" suck-guns, making them a poor choice. Basic infantry with heavy weapons might do that job much better. If they need to be in combat to do anything, they have to rely on their slow movement speed and leave cover where they can be blasted down or countercharged by a combat unit (tons of combat units crush ogryns with their no armor and sucky 2 initiative, plus they lose combats because they have NO power weapons or powerfists.) The only time ogryns do anything is if the opponent falls asleep and lets them assault his squishy shooting units without blasting them full of holes. That's true of ANY assault unit. Ogryns use up a lot of points, taking away guns from your army.


stormtroopers are expendable disruptors with nice anti tank capability. best used in chimera outflanking. Meltavets have to move up the whole game and cannot even be thrown into the fray properly because they need to score. This does not fit well with meltaguns. 4+ armour is great, the low model count too (visibility) and they even make up good close assault fighters against opposing guard or weak eldar models or similar.
A single squad of stormtroopers can be 250 points. Expendable? Lol. It's 105 points for a basic 5-man squad with 2 meltas. Non-scoring, free-kill-point, get shot dead quickly. Meltavets get to start driving from turn 1, troopers can't do jack on turn 1, they have to wait till turn 2-4 before they can start driving at the same speed meltavets go. The line about needing to score is laughably wrong. Someone can field several vet squads. Not everyone needs to sit on an objective. If you have that many objectives, then it's a stupid idea to buy stormtroopers anyway because they can't score! To include stormtroopers in your list you have to take out a different unit. They're not just an addition.

So, Bloodgod. How many vehicle destroyed results does it take to kill two armored sentinels? In cover? How about one vendetta? It takes twice the firepower to kill the sentinel squad than it does the one Valk, and the sentinels have an easier time getting cover. On top of that, if you plan on using the Valk/vend as a transport, well you have to bring yourself out into the open, and CLOSER to the weapons that can kill it, while the sentinels have no reason to get closer than 48" from their target. In Assault the walkers are just plain better. They have nothing to fear from STR:4 marines, and melta/krak grenades have almost no chance to hit them. Only Powerfists and thunder hammers can reliably kill them. Oh, and they can fight back. The Vendetta meanwhile is only armor 10, and if you're moving fast enough that they need 6's to hit, than you're not shooting. I don't deny that the Vendetta has more firepower, and can carry troops. But the armored sentinels, even with the penalty for squadrons, are a much more durable unit.

As for the "assault" tanks. Yeah, their more vulnerable to weapon destroyed. They can also screen more effectivly, and loose less total firepower at faster speeds, giving you less reason to just have them putter along. They can also carry a more effective multi-role load-out. Hellhounds and such get the flamer/melta combo, while the Vendetta gets anti-tank or neuters it's firepower for one-shot anti-personnel. Valkyries are the opposite, and both are also trying to be transports. In all three cases speed is what keeps them them safe, and the hellhound looses less to keep moving.

I actually agree with rough riders. Only good if you can get them to out flank, and than not by much. They die to easily.

Five chimeras are safer than two hellhounds. What's in them? If vets, their a prime target and you'll be lucky to get them across the board. If regular IG, than meq's will save them for later, and orks/tyranids will swamp them, and eldar/tau will take them out with side shots before they do any real damage. At least the hellhounds can keep their distance (bane wolf excluded) and can make better use of cover, and minimize assaults.

I don't have much exp. with ogryns. as long as their not up against terminators or MC they have potential the potential to do something.

Stormtroopers seems to be one of those topics that no one can agree on. I've absolutely massacred marines with them, but that's just me. on the note of deep-striking however...
Stormtroopers will show up on the second turn reliably if you take an astropath (you're using reserves, why didn't you take one?). So on the second turn with reroll scatter you'll get two meltas at point blank range for 105pts. The chimera vets will take at least three turns to get into range assuming their target is as far back as it can be and isn't trying to avoid them. So the Stormtroopers get there a turn earlier, and will hopefully kill their target before it kills something that costs a heck-of-a-lot more than 105 pts.

Oh, and nice job assuming your vet's chimera would ever get them there.

I wish I saw more Ogryns and Rough Riders, but not Ratlings. I hate Ratlings.

Kirika wrote:Rough Riders. Just aren't good. Only good for one charge
Ogryn really suck because of how expensive they are.

Anpu42 wrote:Banewolf -AP-3 Wound on a 2+, [size=18]AP-3

All of this advice comes from a very narrow-mined look at only a single part of the stat line. Taken comprehensively, instead of just counting ONLY number of times lances are used and ONLY how much they cost, and ONLY what their AP is leads to skewed thinking.

TheBloodGod wrote: Ogryns are "decent shooters"? Lol. 12" guns with no AP at all, 130 points for 3... yeah right.

Well, when you do all the math and find out that ogryn beat their points in LC terminators and Tac marines on the charge...

Or you could look at just some of the statline without actually going through it all.

Anpu42 wrote:-So they are only S3, your Marines Get No Save!

..unless they get a cover save...

Anpu42 wrote:-If you have Kell they are Leadership 10.
-If you are fighting Terminators with them you are asking to get then killed.

Actually, Kell only gives you the Ld to orders. A lord commissar nearby with a CCS with a standard, on the other hand... of course, this does make the ogryn awfully expensive, but if you're taking one of those already...

-Nazdreg- wrote: You just cannot compare a 6" moving hull flamer with 12" moving flamer with s6 and 12" range. And side armour 12.

Right, the hellhound is definitely better than the flamer chimera (which is why it costs over twice as much). Fast only does so much to help with the other variants, though...

one thing that helps my Vendettas survive a bit longer for me is to provide more, possibely as deadly targets.
what is the bigger threat the Demolishers, Chimera laden with Vets or the Vendetta? maybe the Manticore?
i don't thing you can look at it in a vacuum like that.
i'd like to make a case for the Sentinels having used them. side by side with Vendettas even and have had them underwhelm me each time.
i think my biggest issue with Rough Riders is the size of the model. they are hard to hide, and as fragile as glass. i'm converting some at the moment
and it makes me a little sad that they'll probably be setting next to my Stormtroopers in storage...

The one thing I like about the Hellhound and Devildog is the fact that they are the only mobile multi-meltas you can get. I'm currently running a hellhound with hull multimelta, because most opponents are going to be unaware of its potential to pop their landraider.
Note that I personally don't use Vendettas because I consider them the closest thing to OP in the current codex.

I've used ALL the units mentioned by the OP....and a couple of units are not "less considered", but actually have been heavily used in my competitive lists....and these are the devil dog and my motorbikes (rough riders).....rough riders I like to almost always reserve (unless I'm fighting Tau) as this preserves them until such time I really need them, where I need them....the devil dog I feel is the best of the 3 hound tanks, as it is the most flexible as it can deal with all kinds of targets, and surprisingly it receives a great deal of attention from my opponents. One thing nice is that the dog is easier to hide behind cover versus the vendetta/valkyrie (I find these not OP at all, but rather I am underwhelmed by them..really!!!..I tend just to use 1 or 2 skimmers, opening up my other FA slots) and so far survives quite well....I find that my most effective ouflanker(s) is Capt. Sidewinder's (Alrahem) platoon, which includes a couple of chimeras....thus I do not find the use of the skimmers in all my 3 FA slots mandatory...(and transporting my units becomes less of a pain)...

The other options then become "less" considered by me...but I like using Ogryns when I feel like it, and despite comments to the contrary I fully agree their shooting is not to be underestimated....RR and Ogryns (especially Ogryns) also do well as close combat tank busters (a secondary role, as long as the target isn't a LR or monolith)...let's face it there are times when you do will not need their anti-assault capability, so I do not hesitate to throw them in versus enemy tanks which have a rear armor of 10....

Of the rest, the hellhound definitely has it's place, and I've used stormtroops quite successfully a couple of times...ratlings I've used pretty often, but they tend to die a lot (my fault, I ALWAYS make the mistake of infiltrating them poorly...)

and of all of them the least attractive for me, is....the bane wolf, since there are better (and safer) ways to kill MEQs in the shooting phase, and once immobilized it practically becomes useless due to the lack of ranged weapons (assuming the hull weapon is a heavy flamer, but even with a HB or a MM the shooting arc is limited)...

Yarrik with 5-6 Ogryn rocking around in their own transport beating the hell out of things and funny to watch and if used right really good.

Also i had 5 ratlings win me a local tourny at my FLGS (rending FTW)

Mmm...Pi wrote:

Oh, and nice job assuming your vet's chimera would ever get them there.

Nice job assuming any of the assault tanks will ever survive long enough to kill anything.

A vendetta can kill stuff from 48" away. Anything that can kill a 130-point vendetta can easily kill a 130-point hellhound. Nice job assuming magic invincibility with your fail suggestions and assuming the enemy suddenly actually has guns for the battle-proven ones.


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Ailaros wrote:
As for ogryn, despite their price, they're not overcosted for what they do. Compared to their points in regular guardsmen, they do about as much damage to marines, and are about as equally durable to bolter and chainsword attacks. While they can't take upgrades to their weapons and are dangerously susceptible to long-range S10 weapons, they are able to take a punishment from other things that would lay a large number of guardsmen flat in a hurry.

Except that they are overcosted. They're not great in combat. They're not even good at shooting. They have nothing to cut through armor, they don't move fast, and they aren't actually survivable considering their points cost. Every ogryn you bring lets the enemy afford a fistful of guns to bring it down.

You've assumed every single time that ogryn get the charge. What happens when they don't because they're regular slow-moving infantry?
5 CSM + PFist champ costs the same 130. When they charge, bolt pistols puts 1.33 wounds on ogryn. Then troopers kill the 1st ogryn with 1.7 wounds. Ogryns kill 0.8 troopers. Pfist wounds another 1.3. Ogryns take Leadership test on Ld7.
Next turn, CSM do 1.7 wounds, killing the 2nd ogryn, Ogryns do 0.78 and have to take another Leadership test on Ld7.
1 ogryn is left against 4 out of 6 CSM and gets torn to shreds.

That's not even a berserker squad or anything. Berserkers would also probably tear them apart.
Plague Marines would tear them apart (defensive grenades, T5, 3+ save, 4+ FNP + Powerfist > T5 5+ save no FNP, no defensive grenades.)

But go ahead. I'm sure the enemy will let your one single combat squad who is good at nothing else get into combat with their Fire Warriors. He won't just shoot the transport containing infantry with 12" guns and no special weapons at all.

Why are we arguing the competativability of Less Considered Options? theres a reason they are less considered. Why cant we just have fun

kenshin620 wrote:Why are we arguing the competativability of Less Considered Options? theres a reason they are less considered. Why cant we just have fun

THIS IS DAKKA! (Now just imagine it's Gerard Butler screaming it! )
no fun aloud! it would just throw everybody off...

Why are we arguing the competativability of Less Considered Options? theres a reason they are less considered.

To make the guard more versatile, to find new strategies and approaches, to discover rather secret abilities, to fight the conservative builds

I love me some space hobbit action.

I like to keep my rattlings towards the back, making use of their 36" range, hopefully means they get at least 2 turns without getting shot at and if they are getting shot at its probably my cheapest unit taking the flak.