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Ok I've come to the conclusion that I play a hard army with some very easily made choices and now I own most of those I find myself going back to the codex and considering the options initial discarded.

Rough Riders

+ 55pts for 5 is cheap
+ Cavalry means they have a large threat range
+ First time they charge they get S 5 I 5 Power weapons (Ouch)
+ up to 5 more for cheap.
+ up to two meltas, melta-bombs for sarge
+ cheap Fast Attack choice (for those tournies where you have to fill all choices)

- Models available are garbage and/or expensive
- Large models makes them hard to hide
- Only one use of powerweapons
- the first time you charge so no saving it
- Can't attack on upper floors
- Only T3

I honestly can't believe I overlooked these guys the countercharge potential is impressive.

Hellhound and family

All Varients

+ Fast chimera chasis
+ Extra options on hull mount
+ Can be squadroned
+ Lower profile for cover claiming

- Costs as much as the more used Valkyrie/Vendetta
- No Transport capacity
- Searchlight and smoke launchers cost extra

Hellhound

+ Str 6 flamer that can be placed up to 12" away from vehicle
+ Str 6 gives it a chance against transports (which don't get cover)

- Flamer is only ap 4 meaning not great against MEQ

Devil Dog

+ Melta blast makes up for poor BS
+ Even partial hits give a chance against all targets (str 4 + 2d6) at 12"

- 12" is awful close
- Risk of scatter back destruction

Banewolf

+ AP 3 wounding on a 2+ whats not to like
+ as cannon is effectivly str 1 it counts as a defensive weapon meaning always firing everything when moving 12"

- the template comes directly from the gun meaning you have to be really close

I think that they are actually a lot more viable than most people seem to think and yes the valkyrie/vendetta are the new shiny but I think the Hellhound family shouldn't be counted out.

Ratlings

Pros
+ Cheap cheap cheap 30pts minimum 100pts gets you 10 of them
+ BS 4 better BS than SM scouts and cheaper
+ Stealth as standard 3+ cover save in most situations
+ Infiltrate allowing excellent battlefield deployment options
+ sniper rifles 4+ to wound anything and rend on a 6 with pinning

Cons
- models are not everyones cup of tea - hobbits in 40k
- Ld 6 is not not good
- T 2 means they are getting wounded by almost everything on a 2+
- Sniper are Heavy 1 meaning no move and shoot

Personally I use ratlings ever so often (usually in units of 5) and they are never a game breaking unit but they are a great distraction and can threaten almost anything.

Ogryn

+ T5 and 3 wounds in a guard army is not to be sneezed at
+ S5 and furious charge with 3 Attacks is pretty nice
+ S5 assault 3 guns especially fired from a chimera aint bad

- 130 pts for 3 and 40pts each ouch terminator cost
- the monetary cost is also obscene
- Stubborn good stubborn with LD 7 not so hot
- no options for upgrades (so no power weapons)
- vs most dreadnaughts your stuffed

My plan for next game is 5 in a chimera (w/heavy flamer) 260pts! and run it something squishy.

Stormtroopers

+ Carapace armour as standard
+ pistol and cc and rifle as standard
+ Krak grenades as standard
+ BS 4
+ Ability to take 2 special weapons
+ Deepstrike
+ Special ability (choosable at deployment for maximum versatility)
+ AP 3 Lasgun and pistol

- Points expensive (marines cost around the same)
- T3
- CC equipment but no bump in WS
- Elite so not a scoring unit
- Hot shot lasgun is still str 3

I think the biggest problem is the pts cost a full unit of these without special weapons is 165pts and as a guard player you like cheap effective units. Here's my take on them 5 man squad with 2 meltas at 105pts as a drop pod dread analogue isn't half bad, rerolling scatter for deepstrikes allows you to take chances in drop zone (thread that needle!), 2 meltas makes the chance of getting a hit better than that of a MM armed dread and all for less points.

Conclusion

Are these units the best in the codex - no; are they cost effective - sometimes; do they have potential - maybe; Will they suprise your opponent - Yes.

Nice topic. I like unusual units in the IG.

Lets share my thoughts about the stated units:

Rough Riders:

I played them for a long time. 6 Riders, Sarge with Meltabomb.
Their problem is: They are too much "Yay or nay". If your dice have a bad day, you will not do enough damage with the riders to run down the opposing unit and you will get eaten in the phase you attacked. This is not what you want. (0:1 units) If your dice have a good day, you wipe out the whole squad and you will get shot dead in the enemy phase to not much gain (1:1 units).

Second disadvantage: everyone knows they are dangerous and everyone knows that 2 or 3 of them arent anymore and they will shoot them with the first bolter like weapons they can point on them. So it will be hard to get them to a useful target.

If you really want rough riders to be good, you will have to use more than one unit and it has to be bigger. (8-10)
Then you can multicharge and break a whole enemy front in one charge and retreat after you did this. Or you charge you first riders, wait for the counter, then jump in with the next....


Assault tanks:

Nice analysis there. But let me point out some more things.

the hellhound variants have side av12 instead of chimeras 10 this makes a big difference because you can make a good wall with them.

concerning devil dog:
another pro: You can hit and damage more than one target vehicle a turn due to the template (if they are close together) and you can hit a vehicle + enemy heavy infantry/character behind the vehicle (at all chaos players hiding a sorcerer behind a landraider without companions...)


ratlings:

I never was a fan of sniper rifles. the problem is: 100p for 10 guys, who are basically physical there is certainly not cheap (I get the double amount of infantrymen) and 30p for 3 guys is cheap, but it is rather air than really a threat and it is an easy killpoint.

They have the disadvantage against sniperscouts that they dont score and that they are T2 instead of T4... And even Sniperscouts are not really good...

Ogryn:

I like Ogryn. T5 and 3 wounds makes them into the army. And you can allocate wounds between bone ead and normals, so you will have to score 5 unsaved wounds in the unit to kill the first ogryn.
I am building an army around 2x5 ogryn, straken and a few foot vets/penals and aircraft for a fluffy catachan army.
So to minimize the ld problem, keep a regimental standard close and they wont run.

Stormtroopers:

Here in germany stormtroopers are always a consideration and get used more and more. The most common (and I think most effective) build is: 5 stormtroopers with 2 meltaguns in a chimera to scout or to outflank (mostly outflank). So you get the chance to bring a crossfiring multilaser around the flank and 2 armoured meltaguns wreaking havoc there. They are also good contesters and are harder to kill than 10 veterans (5 guys are easier to hide and 4+ armour is worth gold in open ground and explosions).
I always use them and I love them.

Your hellhound family one is entirely correct, the rest are like trying to create a defensive position in a pre-sighted artillery zone.

- Sniper rifles are the worst gun in the game. Id rather a lasgun any day.

- ogryns like being instant deathed by STR 10. Mathhammer says ogryns are akin to 30 orks. Ogryns are hard to transport. Ogryns are also secretly a short range punisher gatling cannon. What kills ogryns is that they are the price of an assault terminator. AN ASSAULT TERMINATOR! 3 wounds t5 has got nothing on 2+ 3++ str 8 power weapon.

Rough riders are like those single use rocket launchers in vietnam. They are also terrible, terrible models.

If you mathhammer ratlings against imperial guardsmen you get this:

!0 shots, 6 hit, 3 wound, 2 kill.

Remaining guardsmen return fire with lasguns: 18 shots (10 ratlings = 20 guardsmen) 9 hit, 6 wound, 4 dead. Ratlings are already incredibly outdone.

Now lets VERSE (I love using that word) ratlings and 20 guardsmen at killing space marines

Ratlings fire, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 dead marine.

Guardsmen fire, 10 hit, 4 wound, 1.3 dead marines!

When the marines return fire, the ratlings will be wiped, the guardsmen will not. Ratlings are not even good at their purposeful use: killing MCs, as they will average (10 of them this is) 1 wound per turn. Absolutely terrible.

So, a few comments of my own:

rough riders rule ass. The most important thing is that they're actually pretty good against certain targets that the guard often finds itself with a hard time killing (like monstrous creatures). That they only power attack once doesn't matter when their damage:game ratio is what it is. The only problem is that they can get shot up a bit, so really, you've got to bring more like 2 squads of 10, or none at all.

Also, don't forget that they get krak grenades for free, so they're still good for tank hunting once the sticks are gone.

assault tanks: Want to spend 130 on a tank that will never fire it's weapon? Yeah, banewolves are absolute crap. Either it has the potential to decimate your opponent, and guess what will be killed before it gets in range, or it's against a horde, in which case it doesn't do anything a heavy flamer can (and is worse than an inferno cannon). You're also pretty hard up against mech lists. Hellhounds are going to be better against marines because they can twist the template and have huge range, meaning they get to actually shoot their guns a couple of times.

Devil dogs are meh. If the hole doesn't land on your target, you are, on average, rolling an 11 for armor penetration, which means you're not going to be hurting very much. Once again it's short range (because, really, if it's not in melta range it's little different than firing a single missile launcher at something) makes it so that your opponent has only to punch through some AV12 which is likely going to be out in the open.

Hellhounds are pretty neat, though. If I weren't playing with power blobs, I think I'd always find points to include one (or two).

Ogryn are great because they are basically condensed guardsmen that are relatively immune to things that slaughter normal guardsmen (like template weapons, wyches, banshees, etc.).

Ratlings get AP1 auto-wounding shots (which I think people overlook way too often). Still...

Ailaros wrote:rough riders rule ass. The most important thing is that they're actually pretty good against certain targets that the guard often finds itself with a hard time killing (like monstrous creatures).

i actually find that my Hydras, Plasma Vets and Vendettas tend to kill MC very well. and i think the "less" considered options are that way for a reason. i also think Sentinels should almost qualify for the list. although i will use them if given points left. all choices mentioned would be great in Fluff armies and fun games. but when it comes to getting the job done, there are not only better options, but cheaper ones.

I agree with Ailaros: Rough Riders are great, Hellhounds are awesome, Ogryn are great if you have specific needs, the rest are pretty meh because they aim for form over function.

I think Ogryn work best in a massed infantry list. They let you have the effect of a blob squad with an eighth the footprint, and if you've ever played a massed anything army you know how horrible deployment congestion can be. They'll smash nearly anything that isn't a Dreadnought or twice their points cost.

While there are definitely more versitile and better options in the codex, the less used units are functional.

I've been messing around with Stormtroopers in a few games and have to say that for the price you pay for them (5 men, 2 meltas) the ability to aggressively DS in and slag an expensive tank is very, very nice.

The only thing I would advise with this tactic would be to bring an Astropath. Nothing sucks more than having that unit turn up in Turn 4 or later with no decent targets to engage. The Astropath at least ensures that they'll hit the table early on when there's still plenty of stuff to take out.

L. Wrex

Rough Riders...

Ride or die!



Rough riders have style. There's nothing like redoing the charge of the light brigade . They work well in concert with other units imo- a 50 blob that's been charged loves when the roughriders come in and lance up a few dudes.


And darkhound has a point about Ogryn's- the effect of the blob with an eighth of the footprint. deployment congestion can be the suck.

Ogryns pretending to be a blob but taking up less space. . . at a lower LD, no rerolls, and lacking any power weapons, which are the actual strength of a blob. . .
'Nids are one of my biggest foes, and in my really quick (and possible inaccurate) calculations don't show Ogryns doing well against any MCs or Genestealers, which I see most games.

Rough Riders, though, I'm excited to try. I have a fun conversion in mind, so I'm chomping at the bit to try them. Just need to find something to proxy for a couple games and find some points. . .

Hellhounds are amazing, the reason you don't see them much is because of the cheapness that are Vendettas. Hellhounds stomp horde armies, though. Bane Wolves are brutal, but very situational...like zooming up to a drop pod that just unloaded a ton of Sternguard.

Hellhounds are incedible, especially against non-marine armies, who actually use cover. A common tactic at my club is the kroot bunker. Guy places a bunch of kroot in a forest over an objective and nothing can get the buggers out without risking getting assaulted, except a HH.

Storm troopers are great. I've used them in two games and they haven't failed to do something impressive yet. First game they got a Nurgle Daemon prince down to 1 wound allowing a LRBT to blow the great fat one away. Second game coupled with an astropath they arrive right behind a hammerhead, blow it away, then zapp a a veteran squad and contest an objective.

When I first decided to start playing guard, I made the decision not to deal with the valk/vendetta models (I just don't want to transport them) in spite of their advantages. And so I've always used devil dogs--and recently also a bane wolf--in my fast slots instead.

Using two at a time as separate units, they can reliably zoom up and kill approaching land raiders in the first couple of turns--when it really matters--without sacrificing a troop unit the way meltavets would. If there aren't any LRs on the table, a str8, AP1 gun with an effective range of about 33" that can pretty easily get into side arcs is good against just about every vehicle. Hull heavy flamers also make them able to drive up 12" to clear weedy troops in cover.

And it's really important in a guard army to have something that can zoom up and interdict enemy movement, and bonus if it can also shoot after moving up.

The two things that Devil Dogs really aren't good at are killing heavy infantry and monstrous creatures. Terminators are almost never tightly-packed enough to hit more than one or two with the small blast, and the template only puts a single wound on a trygon or whatever. So I rely on other things in the army to cover those jobs.

And because they're running out in front of everything, the devil dogs often don't survive the game. But if they do their job before they die and I win as a result, then that's okay for 120 points.

And I think it's really important with the hellhound variants to have multiples of them in an army that's already vehicle heavy. I use 2-3 dogs/wolves in an army of 9+ tanks. If you just try to add a single HH to an infantry army, you make it an obvious target.

I remember (back in 4th) I was in an IG match. Urban terrain. I doubted my own powers against a FW Krieg list but in the end it was my hellhound that gave me my edge! (hello no cover saves!) Hellhounds are great if you already have plenty of anti tank but little Anti Infantry.

RR are fun I admit. Although I have to question whats the real different between a explosive on a lance and a missile on a hammer that makes the latter usable every round of combat I believe. Still RR are a cool option. 30 of them running around into the enemies back areas can cause havoc (shame poor Kamir has more rage than khorne bezerkers)

Speaking of other non-standard options, what about the other HQ choices like Lord Commisars or Primis Psykers?

If you wanted to use them, how would you go about doing it?

Hellhounds are overlooked? I disagree.

Ogryns are too expenisve for what they are, rough riders are cool. Storm troopers are absurdly overpriced. Ratlings are cool considering the elites choice is basically useless.

The other HQ choices are fairly straight forward.

Lord Commissars are fantastic for infantry-heavy armies. They give a nice big Ld10 aura, which you can use for orders. He can keep Conscripts and Heavy Weapons Teams in line, not to mention the Ogryn.

The Primaris Psycher is cheaper to take and equip than a proper Command Squad, and puts out a lot of anti-infantry shooting. He's good for lower points games or lists where you don't need another 4 Meltaguns (and yes, there is such a thing).

DarkHound wrote:The other HQ choices are fairly straight forward.

Lord Commissars are fantastic for infantry-heavy armies. They give a nice big Ld10 aura, which you can use for orders. He can keep Conscripts and Heavy Weapons Teams in line, not to mention the Ogryn.

The Primaris Psycher is cheaper to take and equip than a proper Command Squad, and puts out a lot of anti-infantry shooting. He's good for lower points games or lists where you don't need another 4 Meltaguns (and yes, there is such a thing).

Reviewing these guys again, how silly would it be to use both of them with a 50 man blob?

My thinking is that you have LD10 stubborn supported with the Nightshroud ability to help protect against enemy shooting. Run the PCS behind them to use "Move Move Move" early on and then "FRFSRF" afterwards. You could even add a cheap Vox to give you a really good chance of that happening.

minigun762 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:The other HQ choices are fairly straight forward.

Lord Commissars are fantastic for infantry-heavy armies. They give a nice big Ld10 aura, which you can use for orders. He can keep Conscripts and Heavy Weapons Teams in line, not to mention the Ogryn.

The Primaris Psycher is cheaper to take and equip than a proper Command Squad, and puts out a lot of anti-infantry shooting. He's good for lower points games or lists where you don't need another 4 Meltaguns (and yes, there is such a thing).

Reviewing these guys again, how silly would it be to use both of them with a 50 man blob?

My thinking is that you have LD10 stubborn supported with the Nightshroud ability to help protect against enemy shooting. Run the PCS behind them to use "Move Move Move" early on and then "FRFSRF" afterwards. You could even add a cheap Vox to give you a really good chance of that happening.

Problem with a powerblob is that for half the cost of the Lord, you could take a normal commissar who is not an IC. you lose out on that small LD bubble and ld10 but I think the lord is best used for conscripts since they have no other options for ld and order boosting

Yeah, the Lord Commissar is only justifiable when you have multiple units with Ld needs. That's when the aura and his IC status come into their own.

Yeah, I think I'd have a hard time justifying the lord commissar. Like, in certain circumstances, such as with huge conscript blobs, I could see, but, being an IC, there's not much to brag about in close combat, even with 3 wounds and a 5++.

The primaris psyker is cool because he's so cheap and can actually do stuff. Lightning arc doesn't have the hugest range of targets in the world, but in a pinch he can be at least 70 points of obnoxious if you roll well with it. Were I unwilling to throw down an extra 10 points for a 3x melta CCS (like, say, when running air-cav where providing yet another unit with a ride can be a challenge), he's probably the way to go. Otherwise, well... I just don't like psykers that much in general.

Pasty flesh... demonic abilities... heretics all, I say.

As for ogryn, despite their price, they're not overcosted for what they do. Compared to their points in regular guardsmen, they do about as much damage to marines, and are about as equally durable to bolter and chainsword attacks. While they can't take upgrades to their weapons and are dangerously susceptible to long-range S10 weapons, they are able to take a punishment from other things that would lay a large number of guardsmen flat in a hurry.

Like darkhound said, they're like a low-footprint power blob. They don't do as much damage, but they bring more toughness in a smaller package.

Plus... if you're running an infantry horde, it might be nice to take a break from painting 25-35 models per 250 points, and instead just paint 6...

:-) If points were not an issue, the Lord Commissar is fun for gun lines if only to make orders easier for heavy weapon squads... Not sure I'd use the Psych, if only because I see so many folks using Librarians/Farseers/whatever to shut it down or have it hurt when he does use the powers...

Do agree on the Ogryns, I like them as a Linebacker/Safety... They tend to die slowly and have actually beaten a fair number of things for me...

The problem with using the Lord Commissar exclusively for orders is that Kell exists, and he's a better deal. You save yourself a KP and get a larger re-roll aura as opposed to a weaker blunt Ld10.

Rough Riders are easy to shoot dead with sucky T3 5+. They're one-hit sorta-decents. For every situation where they'll do well, there are likely two situations they'll be frail and not earn their cost.

As for fast attack tanks, I wouldn't say they're always bad, but they're certainly also fragile and situational.

The devil dog is only 24" range and partials at S4 are garbage. Frail AV12 for such an expensive and short ranged 1-shot vehicle.
It's only 10 points less than a Vendetta and 3 twin-linked S9 at 48" completely outmatches the usefulness of the devil dog. A vendetta would blast it dead before it accomplished anything. Plus, it can move faster and it can transport units of scoring troops.

Bane wolf is another situational, fragile, even-shorter ranged tank which isn't very dangerous. It costs as much as a vendetta but only has a flamer template (which is useless against AP2 and only puts 1 wound on a MC before getting assaulted and killed.)
AV12 and one weapon destroyed or immobilized and you've lost 130 points for no gain at all and likely never shot it once. A vendetta would likely get 3-9 TL lascannons off which is far more likely to accomplish anything. Since it requires short range, if it's stunned in place, it's also far more bothersome.
It certainly is good at killing AP3 out of cover at point-blank range, the problem is ever getting it there. (Although a Colossus siege mortar kills marines in cover on 2+ from 24"-240" for only 10 points more while it is hidden behind a building behind the rest of your army. Taking away the only job I'd ever consider the Bane wolf for.)

Hellhounds seem kinda decent against unarmored troopers.
130 points still seems like a lot when for 55 points you can do exactly the same job with Chimera with HFlamer/Multilaser or two HFlamers. (Plus makes your troop squad invulnerable to small arms fire and moves them up.)
Plus you can afford like 5 chimeras for the cost of 2 hellhounds. 2 Hellhounds are much easier to make useless than 5 chimeras. Plus the chims can deliver rapid-firing S7 AP2 vets which kill marines who laugh off hellhound.

Ratlings aren't really much of a threat to anything. They're no threat to vehicles. They miss a lot, don't do jack against good armor saves, and even wound T3 stuff on 4+. There are some specific situations a ratling earns his pay, but tons that it does not. The enemy can ignore ratlings all game and often suffer no penalty whatsoever (While you spent plenty of points on them.)

Ogryns suck. They cost too much. They get smashed by dreadnoughts. They get smashed by tyranid monsters. They get smashed by any awesome combat units. Why would I give up always-useful guns to get a unit which even fails at combat half the time and poses no threat at range? Enemy termies get the full 2+ armor save against them making them complete failures.

Storm Troopers also completely suck. For the cost of 7 naked storm troopers with S3 guns, someone can buy 10 veterans with 3 plasma guns for 6 shots which can kill terminators on 2+. The STs guns are only 18" if standing still, not even the 24" of a normal lasgun or plasma. If you take the meager 2 plasmas or meltas STs can buy, then you're still paying points for "Hot-shot lasgun" shots that you don't even get from those two. They also aren't scoring troops.


The above-mentioned units aren't "overlooked" any more than an ugly 400 pound girl is "overlooked" at prom. "Surprise" is worth absolutely nothing without actual substance.
Has the enemy basketball team specifically prepared a strategy for what to do if your team brings a fat, out-of-shape guy who can barely run? Likely not. Does surprising someone with how bad your judgment is do anything other than lose games? No.

Ogryns, while expensive, certainly don't suck.

Their role isnt to charge an assault terminator squad (albeit they'd last awhile since they wont be insta killed) or a Tyranid Monstrous creature. Guards have a lot of heavy weapons to shoot at those targets. A dreadnought should never even get a chance to get close to them for one.

What they're good at is preventing other shooty armies from out shooting the guards. Nearly anything that is S/T3 will be eaten alive in assault with them.

I've been playing sisters for awhile now and at the 2500-3000 level, my opponent will sometimes field 2 squads of 10 ogryns because he knows how hard they are for me to deal with. If you focus fire them, the rest of the army tears you up and if you don't, you eventually have to deal with them charging and 5 of them is easily enough to cause plenty of wounds, forcing allocation to special weapons and/or sergeants.

Aww damnit, I've been planning on using all of the flame tank variants in my list, but that actually makes a lot of sense there Bloodgod...

Back to the drawing board yet again!

The problem with Ogryns is that unless you can keep ahead in the Combat Resolution, you will be checking Morale against Ld7 ( 6 if the Bonehead is dead ). With regular Guardsman , who cares if they get slaughtered? They are cheap and plentiful. Ogryns are not.

Ogryns should not be pitted against dedicated enemy melee units. Ever. They suffer from the same "Do or Die" mentality of Roughriders. Once committed they must win or they are at the mercy of their Ld7.

I'll just pipe in here for the stormtroopers. yes they are ~16 points per model, marines are 18 for tactical marines and if we want to go for a bit of Mathhammer;

5 Stormtroopers @ marines: 10*2/3*1/3 = ~2.22
thats 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/3 wounds, no armour save

5 marines @ stormtroopers = 10*2/3*2/3*1/4= ~2.22
thats 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/2 chance for armour save

so verses each other, its not that bad. add to that the face of all the special rules, special weapons and the ability to change between DS, scout and infiltrate at deployment its definitely worth it. now, there are going to be some cases where they're not ideal but I can garuntee that theyl kill a heap of stuff (more than theyre points worth) in 3/4 games.

Stormies can reliably take down devistator teams, bike squads and most vehicles. they are also effective at killing normal marines if needed. in short they are good at clearing those anoying units away that threaten your tanks or your big infantry blobs and whatnot.

If stormies need anything its the ability to capture objectives.

And realy, there is nothing so 'flufffy' as a squad of Kasrkin turning up and blasting a chunk out of enemy defenses and turning the game in your favour.

as for the others:

-Ogryn would be good if they had a power weapon (at least for the sarge) or were 10 points less.
-Ratlings would be better if they werent ratlings or if sniper weapons were actualy as good as they should be instead of as crap as they are.
-Helhounds and its variants are quite good at killing the particulat things they are designed to kill (HH for light/medium infantry or horde, DD for vehicles or maby newly DS'd TEQs, BW for cklose range MEQs)
-sentinels are good at nusiance and for tieing up squads without AT grenades.
-as for RRs I have absolutely 0 experience with them so i wouldnt comment about them except to say thet the available models are rubish.

TheBloodGod wrote:

The devil dog is only 24" range and partials at S4 are garbage. Frail AV12 for such an expensive and short ranged 1-shot vehicle.
It's only 10 points less than a Vendetta and 3 twin-linked S9 at 48" completely outmatches the usefulness of the devil dog. A vendetta would blast it dead before it accomplished anything. Plus, it can move faster and it can transport units of scoring troops.

The devil dog moves before it shoots, so its effective range is closer to 33-34" and hits most vehicles with a meltacannon about 50% of the time, slightly more for land raiders with their bigger footprint, which is a good thing because land raiders should be its primary target.

Melta at half range will always be better at penetrating AR13-14 than lascannons--even three twin-linked ones. Devil dogs are better at killing land raiders than vendettas, and for cheaper. No land raiders on the table? The devil dog's heavy flamer makes it like a short-ranged hellhound, for 10 points less.

Meltavets/command squads in a chimera are better than either, but cost a lot more and have about a 4-5" shorter effective range, and moving up like that opens up their AR10 sides. So as an alternative to vendettas and/or meltavets, devil dogs work for killing heavy armor (in my experience). Especially killing the land raider with one shot while it's still on the other side of the table when it's still worth killing.

Typically, I've had better luck with deep striking melta storm troopers. Two shots that do the same thing and hit more than half the time. If you are within command range for BiD, even more than that. Their two meltas are going to be the same amount of hits you get on non-vehicles as you would a devil dog as well, or you're not playing someone very used to blast markers anyway. I love Hellhounds though, and normally try to squeeze in two in a squadron. Overlapping templates are amazing, and if you overlap enough of them, you'll even take down termies like their nothing. As far as the rest of the options, I've never had luck with Rough Riders. They either never make it to what I want to use them on, or I get assaulted by something else, forcing me to waste their awesomeness, but I think that's nothing but me playing against armies faster than I am. Besides, Rough Riders take away from my vendettas/hellhounds. I've played around with all of the elite options now, including finally the PBS. My thoughts:

Ogryn:
- Take a beating like it's no one's business and operate as a good board control unit by virtue of the fact that they're scary to get close to.
- Prohibitively expensive, especially given that you need more expensive options to keep them from just being scared off the board by loud noises.
They hit really really hard, but for 2-3 times the amount you spend on a power blob. Outside of melee, they get shot off the table. Inside melee, the lack of power weapons hurts them. I have six of them, so I want them to be as good as anyone, but they just collect dust for now.

Storm Troopers:
- Versatile deployment options, cool unique abilities. (Reroll deep strike? I'll take it.)
- Expensive and not scoring. Poor range.
These guys are a mixed bag. On one hand, suicide melta missions seem like an obvious way to go, and are quite effective. I'll take 105 points for a dead land raider any day. On the other hand, I've also had a 10-man squad in a chimera outflanking to cause massive massive psychological damage during games with surprising effect. During one of such games, I got the other person to keep both sections of a combat squadded devastator squad hassling them and their ride rather than attacking something that I was actually worried about.

Psyker Battle Squad:
- Pretty cool psychic powers.
- Slightly expensive. Ultimate sanction hurts. Substandard leadership for psykers. Draws fire like nobody's business
So these guys are pretty cool. I played with a 8 man squad of them for the first time last night, and the fit somewhere between halfway effective gimmick, and actually useful. Part of the problem is the obvious high priority target that they are, but combined with snipers or artillery, they can cause quite a bit of havoc. The other major issue is that just about every 40k race has some sort of psychic defense except Orks and Tau, so it's easily possible that someone will shut them down 50% of the time. In retrospect, I'm not sure if guaranteeing a single unit pinned that turn justifies the cost of pinning weapons on top of the PBS. Since the power I'm concerned with most is the leadership one, I wonder if two squads of 5 would be effective enough to be devastating.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:No land raiders on the table? The devil dog's heavy flamer makes it like a short-ranged hellhound, for 10 points less.

Or you could say it was like a fast Chimera, for twice as many points.

If you want a fast 12-12-10 vehicle that can deliver 24" range Melta shots at which hit half the time, put a MM on the front of a Hellhound. It hits about as often, and if there are no targets, the Inferno Cannon is vastly superior to a Heavy Flamer. The only loss is a small AP1 blast, for the targets the Hellhound variants shouldn't go after anyway. I personally found the MM even to be a waste, since a single BS 3 shot isn't consistent enough.