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Wow thanks everyone, wasn't expecting this much of a response.

I'd pretty much decided to go with the AC mainly because like many of you have mentioned it can do something against AV where as HB will struggle.

I was mainly tempted (excluding my collective nature) because I fight a lot of ork, but to be honest if I think about it they seem to be mech orks.

.. except that they do. If you want to preserve your 60mm bases, I'd do something like I did.

sorry but that is petty much what I meant, sorry for not making clear. Hell friends have even let me use a 60mm piece of paper as a base.

I'd like to apologize to everyone for opening up the auto cannon debate again, it was not on purpose. I was just curious to whether I should let my collecting instincts drive my army creation or not. Plus I have never really used Heavy bolters as I generally prefer heavy flamers on vehicles.

@Ailaros: i'm not going to argue with you, to be honest I agree there are thing that kill vehicles better for the same points and as a fan of your battle reports (and army in general) I know your tactics or though not common place can and do work. However I do know your feelings about HWS and Ac's in particular and I don't thing we need the better/good debate again especially as I was asking specifically about HWT's. Please don't be offended by this as it was not my intention.

@everyone else: We all know ailaros does not like HWT but he is allowed to have is opinion. Thank you for help and comments it is greatly appreciated. However as L. Wrex say we all seen this argument before so I think the best course of action is in future just except that ailaros has his opinion and move on.

I've been on dakka long enough to have seen the debate before and in hindsight maybe I should have just pm'd a few people.

Sorry again

Spank

Now I feel all guilty and stuff...

I didn't want to prematurely shut down a topic that was, to all intents, perfectly reasonable. What I objected to was the resurfacing of the autocannon debate, which seems to be a running topic on these boards whenever anyone so much as hints their name.

In trying to answer your question, what type of mech Orks does your friend play? If he runs 6-7 Trukks autocannons will indeed smash them to bits; if he run 3-4 Battlewagons however, you might want to look at lascannons or Vendettas (they can side shots) as S7 vs AV14 doesn't mix well.

L. Wrex

L. Wrex don't feel guilty man, looking back at the posts we managed to get quite a lot of useful informtaion before the AC debate started. Once i'd like to thank you all for posting.

Unfortunatley it seem to be inevitable whenever HWT are talked about.


Just so every one knows my 6 HXT will now be 2 LC, 3 AC and 1 HB (thought i'd give 1 a try in a speed bump squad or if i ever want to give harker a try)

So i'll have in total 6 AC, 6 LC, 3 mortars, 1 ML and 1 HB

I'll just point out, to the OP when fighting orks: against T4 models the HB is better in a ratio of about 6:5 wounds inflicted compared to the autocannon, since it has more shots but a worse to-wound roll. Against ork bikes, trukks, buggies, killa kans and even dreadnoughts and BW side armour, the autocannon is much, much better than a HB. It's not the best weapon in the game vs AV11-12, but it is useful and justifies the points cost.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I'll just point out, to the OP when fighting orks: against T4 models the HB is better in a ratio of about 6:5 wounds inflicted compared to the autocannon, since it has more shots but a worse to-wound roll. Against ork bikes, trukks, buggies, killa kans and even dreadnoughts and BW side armour, the autocannon is much, much better than a HB. It's not the best weapon in the game vs AV11-12, but it is useful and justifies the points cost.

True that. I find some people's argument that "zomg autocannon no make 30 ork boyz disappear" ignores any actual number comparisons between the guns. The same people claim that small blast templates only ever hit 1 model (that'd make mortars useless because one mortar hit doesn't compare to one autocannon hit. Also frag missiles would be worse in every way if they only hit 1 model.) An ork boy is like 6 points. I'd much rather earn 75 points for killing a sentinel with LC/PC using my autocannon than get 12-18 points for killing some boyz. It'd take a VAST amount of boyz to compare, yet heavy bolters do not kill a vast number.

The lascannon is obviously better at piercing armor than the autocannon, which is why it costs so many points. The autocannon is not chosen because it is the most powerful gun in the game, it's chosen because it's the most effective of the low-points-cost guns that comes with troop squads.
Our troop squads already put out anti-troop damage, but without an AC, they can't scratch enemy vehicles. It's makes the squad not a no-threat to AV11-13 just like a powerfist means a unit isn't a free-kill for a dreadnought.

TheBloodGod wrote:
The lascannon is obviously better at piercing armor than the autocannon, which is why it costs so many points. The autocannon is not chosen because it is the most powerful gun in the game, it's chosen because it's the most effective of the low-points-cost guns that comes with troop squads.
Our troop squads already put out anti-troop damage, but without an AC, they can't scratch enemy vehicles. It's makes the squad not a no-threat to AV11-13 just like a powerfist means a unit isn't a free-kill for a dreadnought.

This right here is the crux of the matter. Well said sir.

Often when I've advocated flexibility, the ability to engage different kinds of units, I've gotten the response that "Well, that would just waste firepower against other targets". If an Infantry Squad is already anti-infantry-oriented, why not increase their anti-infantry firepower and use either a Special Weapon Squad or a Heavy Weapon Squad to carry the specialist weaponry? The Imperial Guard can field enough units to specialize in this way.

I wouldn't say that infantry squads are specialized in anti-infantry. In my list, at least, they're specialized in holding objectives, with the secondary ability of being some long ranged anti-transport in a predominantly mechanized short ranged army.

For me, they're there to not die, and any damage is incidental.

I think that you want damage dealing units to be specialized, but support units can be more generalized.

Also, it's not like the heavy bolter is a particularly good anti-infantry weapon, esp. compared to mortars or frags. It doesn't plus up the anti-infantry fire power that much over the two lasguns it replaces, or suffers that big a drop off from the autocannon.

Nurglitch wrote:Often when I've advocated flexibility, the ability to engage different kinds of units, I've gotten the response that "Well, that would just waste firepower against other targets". If an Infantry Squad is already anti-infantry-oriented, why not increase their anti-infantry firepower and use either a Special Weapon Squad or a Heavy Weapon Squad to carry the specialist weaponry? The Imperial Guard can field enough units to specialize in this way.

Heavy weapon squads and special weapon squads are more expensive AND more fragile. That is why that's a bad idea.

The increase in anti-infantry power of adding a heavy bolter instead of an autocannon is tiny.
The decrease in anti-vehicle power of adding a heavy bolter instead of an autocannon is huge.

If they were equivalent, what you're saying would be valid.

TheBloodGod:

So show me the values that you've interpreted as "tiny" and "huge".

Huge I imagine would be the inability of S5 to do anything against AV 12 (or AV 11 realistically... glances don't do all that much) Vs S7 being able to damage most common AVs. Tiny Would be the increase in infantry kills that you get with a weaker weapon that has 1 more shot than the higher strength gun.

Remember the main difference between the two guns is ONE shot, and that extra shot (and the other two) are not strong enough to wound most infantry on 2s.

All things being equal, I would give up a fraction of an infantry kill on average for the slight chance to be more versatile in my target selection. The extra range doesn't hurt either.

AV10
Heavy Bolter: 0.26 Glancing, 0.26 Penetrating
Autocannon: 0.17 Glancing, 0.5 Penetrating

AV11
Heavy Bolter: 0.26 Glancing
Autocannon: 0.17 Glancing, 0.33 Penetrating

AV12
Heavy Bolter: -
Autocannon: 0.17 Glancing, 0.17 Penetrating

AV13
Heavy Bolter: -
Autocannon: 0.17 Glancing

Against T3 Sv4+
Heavy Bolter: 1.25 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.83 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv4+
Heavy Bolter: 0.99 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.83 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv3+
Heavy Bolter: 0.33 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.27 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv2+
Heavy Bolter: 0.17 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.14 expected casualties

Against T6 Sv3+
Heavy Bolter: 0.16 expected unsaved wounds
Autocannon: 0.22 expected unsaved wounds

That extra Heavy Bolter shot adds up. If you have ten Autocannons and ten Heavy Bolters, that's 20 vs 30 shots.

TY for the number Nurglitch. It was about what I expected. Heavy bolters are superior at killing most infantry, but not by a huge amount.

The last thing you said, if you take 10 HB it really adds up. Lets say you are firing at meqs, the most common stat line you are likely to face.
On average, the HB out preforms the AC by about 6 percent. So if you took 10 heavy bolters and 10 auto cannons, that should mean about .6 more kills for the heavy bolter. Its up to you if you think giving up the higher chance to hurt high T models and vehicles is worth killing slightly more than half a space marine.

Against T 3 and 4+ save guys, your typical carapace wearing guardsmen or Geqs in cover, it does add up quite a bit more. That being said, their are other options that are even better in the guard list for killing those types of units. Template weapons for instance.

Yea I agree with the fact that it is marginal at best.

Speaking of HWS, I find it twisted that lascannon krieg heavy squads are cheaper than normal lascannon heavy squads yet they have better WS and have the ability to combine with infantry squads.

Nurglitch wrote:That extra Heavy Bolter shot adds up. If you have ten Autocannons and ten Heavy Bolters, that's 20 vs 30 shots.

Also, think about per turn as well as per gun. Over a six turn game the shots can add up even more.

To the OP: I'd make sure you're comfortable with your anti-vehicle, if you are, go with the heavy bolters.

It's a lot of shots, but I think people get blinded and focus too much on one number.

Number of shots is a big difference between the two guns.
But averaged out, the actual troop killing is not as big a difference as yelling "30 shots to 20 shots" would suggest.

First of all, only like half of the people who play aren't fielding MEQs where HBs become terrible.
Against marines those numbers suggest you kill 1 extra marine with 17 heavy bolters instead of 17 autocannons.
Would I rather kill 1 extra fodder marine (16 points) or would I rather be allowed the choice of 5.5 extra penetrating shots onto enemy rhinos (50 points each, plus makes squad foot-sloggers if it's destroyed.) Easy to answer.
It's clear to me that HBs become the absolute worst choice if you end up facing the incredibly common four marine armies (Vanilla/SW/BA/Chaos.)

Against hordes, a heavy bolter still only averages 1 dead orkz boy per turn. That's 18 points earned from a 75-point HB squad (and it's HALF as effective if they get a cover save.) Out of a 30-man unit, that doesn't strike me as a hard counter to horde armies.