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Hi All

At present I have 4 Lascannons, 3 Autocannons, 3 Mortars and a Missile launcher built. I've got enough bits and 60mm bases to make 6 more HWT (not including Missile launchers as they don't need the 60mm base) and I was thinking about building 3 heavy bolters so I had at least 3 of every Heavy Weapon.

Should I bother? or just built more Lascannons and Autocannons

Short answer, probably not. You have other options that can do just about anything better then a HB. The Autocannon for example, wounds much easier and can pop light vehicles without needing a 5 or 6 to glance/pen on AV 10. Missile launchers: Frags aren't going to wound as much but they will generally hit alot more targets and have the option of Krak missiles when needed.

HB's are my favorite looking model though

Make them autocannons.

I do like how they look and collector in me is tempted, but the tactician in me thinks the autocannon will do the same job and is more versatile.

I have never used heavy bolter teams so was just wondering how people found them?

I agree that the HB squad is one of the better looking choices and unlike Marines, the Heavy Bolter is actually a vast upgrade over the stock weaponry of the Troops, so it makes sense to include them.

However being at the same price tag as the awesome autocannon and having the cheaper but probably better mortar choices available puts it into an odd position.

I say if you take them, take them for looks. Competitively, mortars or autocannons will serve you better in the long run.

I agree with the general consensus here; only bother with HB teams if you want the look. Heavy Bolters are used for cutting hordes, and it's not like you don't already have massed lasguns at short range and/or pieplates at long range to take care of that issue. An HB can always throw an extra wound or two on practically any enemy squad, of course, but that's why you have them built in to practically every vehicle in your army. I say leave it at that and use your HWTs for the more specialized choices.

I have never used heavy bolter teams so was just wondering how people found them?

For actual experience just play a couple games with them. The HB is itself isnt a terrible weapon, there are just better options out there. Their biggest drawback is that the Mech lists are so prevalent right now. Since HBs cant reliably pop vehicles (especially front armor) their job is pretty much to sit there and wait for someone to roll up and murder them.

Im not a big Mathhammer player, but I would guesstimate on average that against horde lists they would take credit for a total of 1-2 infantry kills per turn (which might look better while added to their squadmates, but they still aren't really pulling their weight points wise). Now consider that a horde list is probably designed to be in combat by turn 2-3, you have killed approx 48 points worth of enemy models (assuming roughly 8 pts per model) before your in CC.

Thats an extremely vague scenario but you get the point.

Tekksama wrote:

Im not a big Mathhammer player, but I would guesstimate on average that against horde lists they would take credit for a total of 1-2 infantry kills per turn (which might look better while added to their squadmates, but they still aren't really pulling their weight points wise). Now consider that a horde list is probably designed to be in combat by turn 2-3, you have killed approx 48 points worth of enemy models (assuming roughly 8 pts per model) before your in CC. -

Well lets see. 3 HB's firing will get you 9 shots = 4.5 hits
against T3 4+ save or worse, thats 3.75 dead infantry, 1.87 in cover.
against T4 3+ save, its 1 dead Marine regardless of cover
against T6 3+ save, its 0.5 wounds on an MC regardless of cover

Overall, not too shabby against anything with a T value but S5 really struggles against anything with an AV value.

I personally don't see the point on paying for a weaker gun than the auto cannon, for the same price, when you can get tons of free heavy bolters on vehicles. Back in 4th I would say a HBolter wasn't that bad in a foot squad, the ratio of vehicles to infantry was much different. (that and glances could destroy...)

SpankHammer III wrote:(not including Missile launchers as they don't need the 60mm base)

... except that they do. If you want to preserve your 60mm bases, I'd do something like I did.

Heavy bolters are pretty much only worth taking against horde commanders who know how to space out to keep down casualties (like me), or for finishing off targets that your artillery heavily mauled in KP games. If you don't find yourself in those positions often, then it's not much worth taking.

Of course, that doesn't mean you SHOULD make other heavy weapons teams at all. Heavy weapons serve a variety of purposes including modeling objective markers and as part of terrain (or can be put on vehicles in certain circumstances).

If the heavy bolter was the same price as the mortar then it would make the choice a lot more viable. As is, the autocannon is simply the superior weapon in practically all battlefield scenarios (see the past threads regarding autocannons for maths concerning this).

For in game effectiveness, take the autocannon. For looking awesome whilst not really doing much, take the HB.

L. Wrex

I second notabot. They're so cheap elsewhere, especially on vehicles, they're practically free. I only spend points on them for my Vendettas, where I feel they add versatility and use up those extra points at the end of a list.

In general, I'd say that the Heavy Bolter is overshadowed by every other heavy weapon, except maybe the Stubber. S5 is nice, but AP4 is pretty useless (since any tropps it's effective against usually have cover), and 3 shots doesn't cut it. The Heavy Flamer at least compensates for BS 3 and cover, while usually getting more hits.

Heavy Bolter: thumbs down. Exceptions if it's free or on a Vendetta, where you get 6 shots for 10 points; cheaper than lasguns. Especially not worth it on HWT.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:If the heavy bolter was the same price as the mortar then it would make the choice a lot more viable. As is, the autocannon is simply the superior weapon in practically all battlefield scenarios (see the past threads regarding autocannons for maths concerning this).

L. Wrex

I feel that if the HB and Mortar were the same price and the Autocannon and Missile Launcher the same as well, you'd have a much more balanced selection.
As it is now, its either Mortar, Autocannon or Lascannon if anything.

If you want to win games, take autocannons. If looks or fluff is more important than killing things, go ahead and take ANY gun (no point in asking for a tactics forum for that though.)

Autocannons put out good damage on troops, wound bikers and stuff on 2+, and have a decent chance of blowing up transports and light vehicles.

Do I want something that might kill 0.5 extra random troopers per turn or something that can penetrate a 130 point vendetta and either stop it from killing my army or even blow it up? HARD CHOICE!

TheBloodGod wrote:Autocannons put out good damage on troops, wound bikers and stuff on 2+, and have a decent chance of blowing up transports and light vehicles.

Just because the heavy bolter isn't great doesn't mean the autocannon is GOOD, though. It does insignificant damage to hordes, and is laughable, at best, against MEqs, and won't stop transports before they're done unloading their cargo.

The autocannon's role is just as limited as the heavy bolter, it's just limited to different things. To believe it's somehow a game breaker for your opponent simply isn't so.

Ailaros wrote:

TheBloodGod wrote:Autocannons put out good damage on troops, wound bikers and stuff on 2+, and have a decent chance of blowing up transports and light vehicles.

Just because the heavy bolter isn't great doesn't mean the autocannon is GOOD, though. It does insignificant damage to hordes, and is laughable, at best, against MEqs, and won't stop transports before they're done unloading their cargo.

The autocannon's role is just as limited as the heavy bolter, it's just limited to different things. To believe it's somehow a game breaker for your opponent simply isn't so.

Yeah, no.

By Ailaros's failed logic, every gun in the game is bad. No single gun does cheap significant damage to hordes, MEQs, and vehicles from long range for 20 points. To even complain about a 20 point item not auto-destroying an entire 10man unit in 1 turn is plain stupid.

TheBloodGod wrote:Yeah, no.

By Ailaros's failed logic, every gun in the game is bad. No single gun does cheap significant damage to hordes, MEQs, and vehicles from long range for 20 points. To even complain about a 20 point item not auto-destroying an entire 10man unit in 1 turn is plain stupid.

When you shoot it at infantry, you're killing somewhere between about half a model (or, two turns to kill 1) and less than 1 a turn. Significant damage to a horde of over a hundred models? Taking 3 or 4 turns to kill a single MEq is significant?

I'm not stupid, I'm just averse to blindly bowing down to the cult of AUTOCANNONS ARE THE AWESOME

Autocannons and Lascannons outstrip Heavy Bolters by a significant margin.

Eh, I use my autocannons to go after MC's and Rhino hulls... Works fairly well for me. Darn shame about the IG's HB's in this edition (I have a few for my Praetorians :-)), especially when my Long Fangs get a BS 4 Marine who can split fire for 20 points... The HB isn't a huge upgrade for the Wolves of course, but worth 5 points there. Can't say the same for the IG teams though

Hmm.

Against T3 Sv4+
Heavy Bolter: 1.25 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.83 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv4+
Heavy Bolter: 0.99 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.83 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv3+
Heavy Bolter: 0.33 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.27 expected casualties

Against T4 Sv2+
Heavy Bolter: 0.17 expected casualties
Autocannon: 0.14 expected casualties

Against T6 Sv3+
Heavy Bolter: 0.16 expected unsaved wounds
Autocannon: 0.22 expected unsaved wounds

Difference is that Autocannon can pop AV12 AND has a longer range. You'll get an extra turn of shooting with an autocannon.

It's almost as if they complement each other...

Autocannons can penetrate most Dreads, Chims, Valks, vendettas, aka anything AV12 or lower. You also get an additional 12" range which is useful for side shots or getting an additional round of shooting.

HB's get an extra shot and can pen AV 10.

For the same points I see autocannons as a superior choice to the HB.

minigun762 wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:If the heavy bolter was the same price as the mortar then it would make the choice a lot more viable. As is, the autocannon is simply the superior weapon in practically all battlefield scenarios (see the past threads regarding autocannons for maths concerning this).

L. Wrex

I feel that if the HB and Mortar were the same price and the Autocannon and Missile Launcher the same as well, you'd have a much more balanced selection.
As it is now, its either Mortar, Autocannon or Lascannon if anything.

I really like that idea. I wonder how it would have actually played out though

Oh look, the autocannon debate again!

Never take Heavy Bolters, autocannons for the same price are much better in the vast majority of situations.

Hooray, I've done my bit!

Oh man, do we *really* have to go through this again?! We've been down this avenue so many times that its becoming utterly farcical.

Don't take heavy bolters unless your local meta is heavy on lightly armoured horde infantry. In every other case the autocannon is better due to its flexibility, range and strength. No-one is arguing the the autocannon is a good gun, but when comparing the two guns for the same price, it is the superior choice.

Ailaros, we get the fact that you don't like heavy weapons in general. Everyone else finds a use for them in their Guard lists. Please stop bogging down threads by consistently bringing this fact up and trying to impotently impose your opinions on other people; this is the internet, it won't work.

End of debate, can we move on now please?

L. Wrex

This is a discussion board, so yes, we will continue to discuss.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/283748.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269130.page#1178036
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317560.page#1938852

Three other threads revolving around the use of various heavy weapons and their particular merits. Three seperate threads that then got dragged into an autocannon debate. And that's only from the first two or three pages using the search function.

Yes, this is a discussion forum, but this discussion has been done time and time and time again and for some reason still re-surfaces every few days or so. The repetition is getting very tiresome indeed...

L. Wrex

You don't have to participate if you find it tiresome.

Nurglitch wrote:You don't have to participate if you find it tiresome.

QFT

Theres plenty of tactics that get reposted like Trygon vs Mawloc or C:SM vs C:SW vs C:BA and I dont mind much