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Yuber wrote:The Mortis dread can also perform as a limited flank guard, receiving assault units that threaten weaker units in your back line. Finally, it only takes an elite slot. which you have alot of. Some people would want their HS slot for something else like a vindicator or a land raider.

There's much better anti-tank units than Mortis dreads in the Elites section though, don't you think? Sternguard and good old TH/SS Terminators come to mind. Anything that an Autocannon is going to bother, Master Crafted Thunder Hammers are going to do a job on as well. There's also Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas, and Ironclads with Melta-Guns and Seismic Hammers.

Why not just take both?

The nice thing about auto cannons is its 48 inch range, as apposed to the poke it with a stick range of termies.

You don't hope to kill all of the enemy with them, but you do hope to at least force your opponent to split their force between the demobilized portion and the part that still has transport. You know, so when they arrive your TH/SH guys aren't overwhelmed by a flood of guys.

My auto cannons from both platforms have worked quite well, with positive results shooting at valks and vendettas, as well as against other marines and ork armies. Heck, they've done well against eldar grav tanks too.

There are just some times, especially with marines, where you really need the long range fire power, even if it is rather feeble. It is better than nothing after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:Why not just take both?

Why not indeed.

I like both, and they work well together.

Monster Rain wrote:

Yuber wrote:The Mortis dread can also perform as a limited flank guard, receiving assault units that threaten weaker units in your back line. Finally, it only takes an elite slot. which you have alot of. Some people would want their HS slot for something else like a vindicator or a land raider.

There's much better anti-tank units than Mortis dreads in the Elites section though, don't you think? Sternguard and good old TH/SS Terminators come to mind. Anything that an Autocannon is going to bother, Master Crafted Thunder Hammers are going to do a job on as well. There's also Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas, and Ironclads with Melta-Guns and Seismic Hammers.

Because you need to drag them closer to kill that tank. Seriously, TH/SS terminators to kill transports? It will be far too late, and its a waste.
Sternguards are more expensive than the mortis dread, furthermore they need to be closer if they are using melta weapons. Unreliable.

Yuber wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Yuber wrote:The Mortis dread can also perform as a limited flank guard, receiving assault units that threaten weaker units in your back line. Finally, it only takes an elite slot. which you have alot of. Some people would want their HS slot for something else like a vindicator or a land raider.

There's much better anti-tank units than Mortis dreads in the Elites section though, don't you think? Sternguard and good old TH/SS Terminators come to mind. Anything that an Autocannon is going to bother, Master Crafted Thunder Hammers are going to do a job on as well. There's also Dreadnoughts with Multi-Meltas, and Ironclads with Melta-Guns and Seismic Hammers.

1. Because you need to drag them closer to kill that tank. Seriously, TH/SS terminators to kill transports? It will be far too late, and its a waste.
2. Sternguards are more expensive than the mortis dread, furthermore they need to be closer if they are using melta weapons. Unreliable.

1. I'm not just talking about Transports though. Letting them loose in a squadron of Demolishers or LRBTs is a good way for them to make their points back in a hurry.
2. You can put them in a Drop Pod.

But I'll concede the point on range, so I see exactly what you're saying.

The predator has side armor 11. Dread has side av of 12. Unless you put yourself in a corner, eventually some lascannon will hit side armor or deepstrikers will.

I use one of both in my 1750 list and find good effect. They compliment each other in what they can do. As this post turned out longer than I intended, I will focus on only the Rifleman.

Modeling
This model is one of my favorite conversions, and always is an eye-catcher. Every time I field it, someone will walk by and look at it and comment on how cool it looks.

You can also get a really awesome reson base to model your rifleman on. I modeled mine so hes looking sightly to the side and firing while walking.

I also used rare earth magnets on the arms, so I can pop them off and put on a different configuration if the mood fits.


What the Rifleman Dread is Good At
The Rifleman is good at surviving. I lose the model in about 20%-25% of the games I play. As has been mentioned, AV 12 at range in cover is surprisingly hard to destroy. The smaller base also means that its less likely to get hit by templates than a tank. It can also climb up levels in ruins, giving it a better vantage for firing and well as cover.

This model excels as destroying AV 10. I played vs. an IG player the other day, and this model alone destroyed 3 chimeras at 35+ inch range by shooting at the side armor. Ive also had it destroy 2 squadded speeders in one volley. While its still decent vs AV 11, AV 10 is the sweet spot.

It excels at doing wounds to T5 models who will get their cover/armor save anyway. Attack bikes with MMs turbo-boosting are great targets. Thunderwolves with SS are another.

It excels at insta-killing T3 models. If there are 10 scarab swarms coming at your army, then a few autocannon shots will clear them out.

It excels at sniping. I was playing in a KP missing this weekend, and a single surviving marine ran into some ruins to deny me a KP. I snipped him from 40" away, hitting 4 times and wounding 4 times. He failed one save and gave up the KP. Ive used him to snipe necron lords, DPs, and eldar farseers. Ive used it to snipe avengers from an objective on turn 6. Being able to reliably throw 3-4 wounds on a T5 model at 48" is a great tool. Even those DPs start to fail saves at that rate and die in 1-3 turns.

The Rifleman is also good at tying up models without a PF in assault. I had a IG squad drop out of the vendetta and blow up my pread. My dread, standing next to it, shot at the IG and then assaulted. As the IG did not have a fist, the dread wiped the squad by beating them in the head with the autocannons.

The Rifleman is surprising mobile. Being able to move and shoot both weapons means that you sacrifice nothing by moving to get a better angle for a shot. If required, it can run. This is great on missions like dawn of war, where other vehicles are limited on the number of shots they can fire.


What the Rifleman Dread is NOT Good At
The Rifleman is not good at destroying AV 12+. Sure, you can take a few pot shots if you have no other targets, but your odds of doing anything really effective get low fast.

The Rifleman is not good at wounding T8 3+ save models. There is not enough umph to wound T8, and the save means 2/3 of those will be ignored. Shoot your lascannons at the 'fex. (which is why to bring the pread)

The Rifleman is not good against hordes in cover. Shooting at 30 orks getting a 4+ cover save is a waste of shots. I guess thats a 'duh moment, but it had to be brought up.

Something else I just realized that may have an impact on this old debate: you can get 2 basic bare-bones autocannon predators for the price of one rifleman. Then you've got the mobility of the rifleman with the armor of a predator and you can split your fire. It's not as accurate and puts more KP in your army, but stunning/shaking/destroying one does nothing to the other and there are many good things you can do with a wall of AV13. If you've got the heavy support slots open, it's worth a shot I think.

interesting, but i think the Survivability of the Rifleman in cover beats the Predator any day.

Grey Templar wrote:interesting, but i think the Survivability of the Rifleman in cover beats the Predator any day.

But not 2 predators. And who is to say that you can't put a predator in cover? If it isn't moving then why not put it there? They're both vehicles, so getting that 50% obscured part is going to be difficult for either.

but the dreadnought is about 1/3 the size of a single predator.

much easier to get cover for.

We just had this dicsussion in another thread.

Take both. They are in different slots, they don't compete with one another and each has its own benefits and draw backs. But, both are excellent units.

I use both in my list and I pair on pred with a dread and a typhoon. It should not be an either/or but a ratio of.

Here are the advantages of the Rifleman
* Best killy potentional vs AV10.
* Guns are placed higher on the model -- this makes it harder to block shots
* Can fire all weapons and move
* Can sit in area cover to get obscurement

Here are the advantages of the Pread
* Has more firepower
* Has better armor and gives cover to units behind.
* Has intimidation factor

The pread is better to take our AV12 and above -- a valuable tool when fighting all the mech armies of today.
The rifleman will tear open AV 10 like its a can of sausage, and is great for sniping large creatures. Its ability to easily gain cover makes it harder to destroy IMHO
Both are tools. The trick is to find the best ratio of tools. A carpenter would not work well if he only had hammers in his toolbelt.

Grey Templar wrote:but the dreadnought is about 1/3 the size of a single predator.

much easier to get cover for.

Really? From the front? They are the same height and hullwise are pretty close in width (remember sponsons are not technically involved in the calc for obscurement).

As far as original topic, I agree with labmouse as far as the AC/2LC preds vs rifleman (except rifleman does not get obscurement simply from being in area terrain -- still needs actual LOS obscurement). His bullets pretty much cover everything you need to know.

Winterman, you're right about the profile; the advantage the Dread has when it comes to cover saves is getting one without obscuring his LOS. Due to sponson layout, almost any time you can get cover with a Pred, you have to block at least one of its guns.

All right, you talked me into, I'm making one.

But if you call it a 'Rifleman' it has to be an homage to Chuck Connors (THE Rifleman).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2oZ6Kv_qo

Lost Boyz wrote:
All right, you talked me into, I'm making one.

But if you call it a 'Rifleman' it has to be an homage to Chuck Connors (THE Rifleman).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX2oZ6Kv_qo

It kind of is...

The rifleman dread is named as such after the Rifleman Mech from Battletech; which was in turn named for the Rifleman tv series.

Rifleman Mech:

Ah, Battletech! You started my obsession with toy soldiers way back when!

Squadrons of demolishers/battle tanks? lol, squadroned Russes are for noobs and Spearhead/Apocalypse.

Anyway, the Rifleman simply works. As a guard player with a lot of vehicles, it's one of the Marine units I "hate" seeing on the table the most. Not only can it crack my chimeras, it can also tie up my units on foot indefinitely. I try not to let this happen, but sometimes it's unavoidable (and other times worth saccing a 100-point unit to silence two TL autocannons). I don't bother with powerfists because 2 S6 attacks that hit on 4+ aren't going to be cracking that dread any time soon.

I find the predators a lot easier to kill, too, since they have a harder time finding cover without limiting their own firepower, and they have lighter side AV (and all the autocannons I brought simply love AV11).

Another note to elaborate on what Terminus said is that Frag Grenades and s4 attacks can damage/silence the predator and Krak Grenades pose a serious threat to that rear Armor 10, the dread ignores both of those.

Cheers,
~Volkan

@Volkan
The Kraks can hurt the dread, although only glance and rarely at that.

@Terminus
I don't think running LRs in squadrons is a noob only move at all. I have run, seen and theorized some very powerful lists with Russes in squadrons. YMMV.

Krak grenades needs 6s and theen 6s to have a chance at doing anything.

Even a Str6 power fist will only ever glance the Dreadnought too.




The only problem with the Rifleman dred is that you need to kitbash to make one(or loot an Aegis defense line) making it a monatarly more expensive model.

Reecius wrote:@Terminus
I don't think running LRs in squadrons is a noob only move at all. I have run, seen and theorized some very powerful lists with Russes in squadrons. YMMV.

Off topic, but okay. The main advantage of the Russ is its survivability over the Chimera chassis. Squadroning it makes it infinitely more killable. If you want more firepower, just go for artillery and save points in the process. And if I really want to add more firepower, I rather add plasma sponsons than a whole 'nother Russ. Russes need to be run in multiples to saturate AV14, it's true, but squadroning is not really the best way to do that. But whatever, YMMV indeed.

Should I give it a couple of HK missiles too? Can I blast everything off the first round for an unholy salvo?

edit: oops - just read the book - that's an Ironclad.

Well, the only vehicle that can take more then 1 HK is the Ironclad Dreadnought.

HK missiles are generally held to be overpriced. One of the advantages of the Riflemen dreads is how cheap they are, helping you take more units overall in the army.

HK missiles CAN be a nice option in Dread Spam armies (particularly 3 Ironclad, 3 regular) to get you some more early shooting, but that's on dreads with CCWs. Mobile/mech armies (especially BA) also sometimes like HKs as a counter to IG mechanized alpha strike lists; you Reserve everything and then shoot the HKs the turn you enter the table, to hopefully knock a couple more IG vehicles outbefore they get a chance to shoot you.

I thought part of the draw of giving dakka dreads pods was to leave them empty to ensure you get your assault dreads in first turn, via the 50% droppod assault rules. Then you can use the empty pods as harassment fire turrets, instant cover, and suprise speedbumps at terrain chokepoints.

Also I wish there was an option to drop the pod but leave it closed for a turn to protect an assault unit until it wakes up. But that is for another thread/time.