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*EDIT* I bumped this thread to discuss taking 2x basic preds instead of a rifleman as a viable option. See the last replies (ignore those who obviously didn't read the thread.)

I have noticed quite a lot of lists using riflemen dreadnoughts (dreadnought with 2 twin-linked autocannons, 120 points), and my question is why, when for the same points you could have a predator with a turret autocannon and lascannons sponsons which has better armor and better weaponry (4 twin-linked strength 7 ap 4 vs. 2 strength 7 ap 4 and 2 strength 9 ap 2)? For the blood angels their predator (same gear) is only 15 points higher in cost and is fast, which is still worth it and the fast has some utility in repositioning 6" every round.

Is there something about the rifleman that makes it better that I'm missing? Is it the smaller footprint? Being able to be locked in assault? Moving through difficult terrain? Mobility? Height advantage maybe?

Because it's truly a mobile fire base. Unless your in the Cullen Clan, you can't move 6" and fire all your weapons.

Smaller, mobile, takes an elite slot, can be poddable, can land most of its hits

But yes the cons are

AV12, cannot use the DCCW, takes an elite slot, will be alone if podded, cannot do much to +AV13

I guess its preference

one reason why I hope the ForgeWorld Mortis-pattern Dreadnought will be added to the Dark Angels codex... Let's have some double TL-lascannons!!!

kenshin620 wrote:...elite slot, poddable...

Is why ^^

why would you care if a Dread with 50" range is podable?

The Rifleman is more mobile than the Pred and can also tarpit when needed. Not AV 10 in CC. And even when the Pred fires both lascannons and the AC its nearly as dangerous vs AV12

tedurur wrote:why would you care if a Dread with 50" range is podable?

Get behind pesky leman russes I suppose. But theres a good chance that the back armors are well covered or the scatter dice doesnt like what you're attempting

Riflemen have more High Str shots then Preds do.

4 Str7 that are Twin linked is better then 2 Str7 and 6 Str5 that aren't twinlinked.


Riflemen have the advantage of allowing you to take Landraiders or Vindicators without sacrificing the need for Auto-cannons.


Auto-cannons fill the gap between anti-tank and anti-infantry. Str7 means most Transports and some light tanks are in trouble and having 4 TL shots means it is accurate and has the volume to take down infantry as well.

This comparison is focused on Rifleman vs. Blood Angels (Fast) Predators, but can give some ideas of the strengths of the Rifleman.

Despite these points, I prefer the Autolas in my Blood Angels armies. The better AP means more wounds against Monstrous Creatures and better Strength means more actual penetrating hits against higher AV's. The Rifleman will do an exceptional job of killing light transports, but will only tend to shake other armored targets. The Autolas can actually put them down.

Also, sponsons suck in a mech list. The autolas pred really needs to be left alone to be able to bring the lascannon sponsons to bear. When you have a whole bunch of rhinos and razor backs crowded around it it can be very difficult to get that shot off.

Since they take up two different FOC slots why choose between them? I use both although i much prefer the cheaper and more versatile dakka pred to the auto las pred. If you had to choose between the two though the pros for the rifleman dread is that it reliably takes down enemy transports at range, can advance while using all of its fire power, is less vulnerable to side shots and can finish off/tarpit units in assault. The dakka pread is better for hoards, is awesome for screening razorbacks and other soft long range units and can tank shock/ram when the need arises all while costing 40 points less. Both will put wounds reliably on to MC's, torrent elite infantry and neither can hurt AV 14. The auto/las pred or the triple las pred is a waste of points IMO for vanilla marines. You can get las cannons on razor backs and screen them with dakka preds for way less points and they wont be neutered by a single glancing hit or over kill targets (which is bad due to being inefficient). The blood angles get fast preds and I have no idea what they pay for them so they could be awesome for all I know but for vanilla you can do much worse than having both dakka preds and rifle dreads in the same list and running 2 or 3 of each.

tedurur wrote:why would you care if a Dread with 50" range is podable?

It's only going to get a turn or two of shooting either way, i'd rather take my chances on rear armor, and keep the heavy slot open for other things.

Don't drop Dakka Dreds.

at long range with a cover save AV12 becomes nearly impossable to kill.

you are looking at at least 3 turns of shooting.


the Predator also loses out because it can't get cover as easily as the Dred and AV12 with a 4+ is better then AV13 in the open

I like taking both dreds AND dakka preds (not the lascannon ones, I'm a cheap *** when it comes to points)

If you like medium tank and MC killing power, why not take even more of it?

Interesting points, thanks all.

In the ba codex, both preds and riflemen take the same slot. Riflemen can take pods, have a higher success rate with their shooting, can be nodded, and can't be taken out by a regular Joe in assault.

I love all this rifle man dread stuff going on now. My land raider has been a beast now that less lascannons are out there (and yes, no melta even gets his disrespectful self with in 6" of me lol

I have better things for my HS slots to do. Elites, though? Go for it. They'd just be sternguard anyway. Well, once I run out of hammernators.

Anyone ever used a dread with TLLC / TLAC ?
i

Meh, the TLLC is overpriced for what you get. And at some times, what the LC is shooting at the TLAC will not do a whole lot.

Double the TLAC for double the fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, just cause I'm like that, they are 'nicknamed' Riflemen, but they are not actually called that. The closest thing they would be called are Mortis Dreads, IIRC.

They are mortis dreads! Its just that DA only want everyone to have one variant . But rifleman catchier I guess.

It's because of the way it resembles a Battletech Rifleman mech.

http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Design.asp?Type=Battlemech&ID=12771

I know, and since it's a differet game, I try to avoid naming it that way
But it is hard, because of said ,'fittness' of the name.

Flavius Infernus wrote:It's because of the way it resembles a Battletech Rifleman mech.

http://www.solaris7.com/TRO/Design.asp?Type=Battlemech&ID=12771

Oh...

theblessing8386 wrote:I love all this rifle man dread stuff going on now. My land raider has been a beast now that less lascannons are out there (and yes, no melta even gets his disrespectful self with in 6" of me lol

This. "Oh, that's cute. Look at all those autocannons. Pardon me while I hide my rhinos behind this Land Raider."

I prefer lots of melta in drop pods to either option. Particularly on Dreadnoughts of any variant.

Oh that's cute, you hid your rhino behind a land raider Ill use my full move that doesn't inhibit my weapons platform and superior range to get side shots on your rhino anyway.

Is this where we wave our e-peens? Where we talk about a hypothetical duel between various units without regard to terrain or deployment, Cromwest?

It was one anecdote. Let's move on.

Sorry I didn't know it was only ok when you did it.

cromwest wrote:Sorry I didn't know it was only ok when you did it.

You're learning then.

Seriously though, I prefer melta to Autocannons for anti-tank. Moving on...

I believe its because Meta modelling. And the meta is mech heavy, in which case, you'd rather have a 4 twinlinked Str 7 mobile firing platform than a more static Predator.

The Mortis dread can also perform as a limited flank guard, receiving assault units that threaten weaker units in your back line. Finally, it only takes an elite slot. which you have alot of. Some people would want their HS slot for something else like a vindicator or a land raider.