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Another rule of Ahriman's: Master of Sorcery

Master of Sorcery allows him to use any non-god specific spell (excluding bolt of tzeentch of course since he has MoT) but it does not specifically state he is a psyker. Combine this with his staff and you have a spell chucking non-psyker

jy2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:He knows sorcery, and has a staff that allows him to utilyze those sorceries according to the rules--since he is not allowed to otherwise since he is not listed as a psyker.

What leap of faith?

Editing to add:
It seems that he has few of the penalties for being a psyker, and perhaps is missing some bonuses I am missing.
Why would that be so strange, really?

If you want to get RAW technical, he wouldn't be able to use any of those powers if he is not a psyker, staff or no staff.

Look in the CSM codex, p.88, under their psychic powers: "A psyker may only attempt to use one psychic power per turn...."

And his Staff lets him use 3.

Specific > General.

kirsanth wrote:Now you are sounding like Gwar! in the "but the Swarmlord is not a Hive Tyrant / Doom isn't a Zoanthrope" or whatnot threads.

Not surprising, since this 'issue' is just as ridiculous.

I already pointed out my actual reading of this at the start.

I mentioned this as a joke today in one of the stores round here. Lets just say I don't think they play RAW in this situation

Just thought I'd mention, Njal isn't listed as a psyker either, he does have the "Master Psyker" special rule tho!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Just thought I'd mention, Njal isn't listed as a psyker either, he does have the "Master Psyker" special rule tho!

Reading that now it almost looks intended. It doesn't say he has to follow the rules for Psykers in the BRB, it just says he can use the psychic powers listed on P. 37.

Eldrad's rule, for example, specifically states he is a psyker AND knows his psychic powers.

As far as I have specifically read, special character wise

Huron is a psyker

Typhus is a psyker

Zogwart is a psyker

Eldrad is a psyker

The swarm lord is a psyker.

Doom of Malan'tai is a psyker.

Ezekiel is a psyker (lol dark angels)

Mephiston is KINDA a psyker (he has a special rule called "Psyker" but it does not specifically say if he is one or not)

Tigurius works like Njal (where in he has the "Master Psyker" rule, but not the "Psyker" rule).

Can't think of any others (That I have to codex for) that say any different.

~DAR

I'm giggling as I type these.

Sanctioned Psykers as allowed in the Eye of Terror codex are not psykers, but use s psychic power each turn (which power determined by rolling a D6). Some of these powers require a psychic test, some of them do not.

GK Terminators are not psykers but can take the holocaust psychic power.

So the Thousand Sons( The Pysker Chapter) leader is Not technically a Pysker? Today is going to be Awesome because this has made my day.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:So the Thousand Sons( The Pysker Chapter) leader is Not technically a Pysker? Today is going to be Awesome because this has made my day.

He is not the leader, Magnus the Red, Daemon-Primarch of Tzeentch is their leader. Ahriman is actually an EXILE of the thousand sons (thus his name: Ahriman: Exile of the Thousand Sons). Mind you, this "fluff" actually doesn't hold much water when it comes to actual "rules". By fluff, Ahriman's most prevalent abilities none of which his current rules support, instead he uses a spell called "Bolt of Tzeentch" even though

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:So the Thousand Sons( The Pysker Chapter) leader is Not technically a Pysker? Today is going to be Awesome because this has made my day.

He is not the leader, Magnus the Red, Daemon-Primarch of Tzeentch is their leader. Ahriman is actually an EXILE of the thousand sons (thus his name: Ahriman: Exile of the Thousand Sons). Mind you, this "fluff" actually doesn't hold much water when it comes to actual "rules". By fluff, Ahriman's most prevalent abilities

Spoiler:

involved "Astral Combat" and the ability to see the future - A Thousand Sons

none of which his current rules support, instead he uses a spell called "Bolt of Tzeentch" even though

Spoiler:

he has nothing but distaste and hate for any/all the chaos gods, ESPECIALLY TZEENTCH, remember Tzeentch "killed his brother" in Ahriman's eyes, and Ahriman's master plan is to "Restore the glory of the Thousand Sons chapter IN THE EYES OF THE EMPEROR"

~DAR

Be fair DAR, this was 10 thousand years ago. He may have learned a few tricks from the Raptora and Pyrae.

Ordo Dakka wrote:
Be fair DAR, this was 10 thousand years ago. He may have learned a few tricks from the Raptora and Pyrae.

You seem to forget that 10k years in the real life =/= 10k years in the warp. It may have only been about 45 years (or maybe, more realistically, a few centuries) in his time between the events in that book and the current time-line.

However, I see this thread being moved to "40k Fluff land" soon, so just wanted to clarify...

Are we all clear that Ahriman is not a Psyker?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Ordo Dakka wrote:
Be fair DAR, this was 10 thousand years ago. He may have learned a few tricks from the Raptora and Pyrae.

You seem to forget that 10k years in the real life =/= 10k years in the warp. It may have only been about 45 years (or maybe, more realistically, a few centuries) in his time between the events in that book and the current time-line.

However, I see this thread being moved to "40k Fluff land" soon, so just wanted to clarify...

Are we all clear that Ahriman is not a Psyker?

Turns out not many Psykers are

RAW he is not a psyker but this is not going to stop me from making him test ld on Hammer of the Witches or pump a Culexus Assassin.

Yeah it's odd this - but fortunately for me (well the BT), if they chose to take their "Abhor the Witch" vow, they get a 5+ inv against all psychic abilities. So even if a non psyker is using a psychic ability, they get the save anyway.

Of course, that's not going to de-motivate me into powerfisting Ahriman into the dust!

Luckily this won't ever come as, as Ahriman will never be taken in an army

I've never ran CSM, isn't he worth taking?

So, since Ahriman is a Master of Sorcery and not a Psyker, do you think this was intentional or a typical GW-up?

FYI It looks like Eldrad is in the same boat... he doesn't show Psyker in his rules either (pg. 61 does not show Psyker in his rules and page 51 says his staff lets him use three powers per turn).

Homer

Homer S wrote:So, since Ahriman is a Master of Sorcery and not a Psyker, do you think this was intentional or a typical GW-up?

FYI It looks like Eldrad is in the same boat... he doesn't show Psyker in his rules either (pg. 61 does not show Psyker in his rules and page 51 says his staff lets him use three powers per turn).

Homer

I don't have my codex handy, but I'm pretty sure he does. In the section talking about his powers.

Eldrad is a psychic character...

Grakmar wrote:I don't have my codex handy, but I'm pretty sure he does. In the section talking about his powers.

Eldrad is a psychic character...

I found it. While not having the special rule "Psyker", Eldar codex page 51 under Psychic Powers states that he is a Psyker.

My question still stands: is the omission of Psyker from Ahriman intentional or an accident?

Homer

liam0404 wrote:I've never ran CSM, isn't he worth taking?

250 Points for a 3 wound, non-EW, 3+Armor (4+ Invul), T4 caster with no special rules other then his ability to cast 3 spells a turn (He does NOT have lash)

You tell me if he's worth it

The reason I think it is safe to assume this was NOT an accident is due to the fact that Typhus, located two pages away, specifically states that he is a Psyker (infact all other things that use psychic powers, including Huron, specifically state that they are "Psykers")

Remember, if Ahriman is a "Psyker" then by definition, he would have 5 spells a turn,

1 For being a Psyker

1 For being a Psyker with MoT

3 From his wargear, the Black Staff.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
The reason I think it is safe to assume this was NOT an accident is due to the fact that Typhus, located two pages away, specifically states that he is a Psyker (infact all other things that use psychic powers, including Huron, specifically state that they are "Psykers")

Under this assumption BT are really not meant to assault from a LR, because they deliberately removed Assault Ramps from the 5th edition codex and a whole other set of R.A.W. fun that had a post floating around somewhere.

I would rather go with what is logical in playing with Ahriman, than some supposition of excellence on the part of the GW rules which are self admittedly not a "tight" rule set.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Are we all clear that Ahriman is not a Psyker?

Nope. I'm still comfortable with the interpretation I posted to begin with. He uses Psychic Powers... ergo, he is a Psyker.

insaniak wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Are we all clear that Ahriman is not a Psyker?

Nope. I'm still comfortable with the interpretation I posted to begin with. He uses Psychic Powers... ergo, he is a Psyker.

So then, would you agree he can use 5 powers (for the reasons I explained already)?

The staff lets him make up to 3 Psychic Tests in a turn. Not 3 more than would normally be allowed.

Being a Psyker lets him use one power. Having the MoTz lets him use a second. The staff lets him make up to 3 tests, which would let him use a third, not 3 more on top of the other two... if you use 3 additional powers, he has made more than 3 psychic tests that turn.

insaniak wrote:The staff lets him make up to 3 Psychic Tests in a turn. Not 3 more than would normally be allowed.

Being a Psyker lets him use one power. Having the MoTz lets him use a second. The staff lets him make up to 3 tests, which would let him use a third, not 3 more on top of the other two... if you use 3 additional powers, he has made more than 3 psychic tests that turn.

I merely asked as the staff states "it (in reference to the staff) allows Ahriman to make up to 3 psychic test in a turn" so I don't see how its too much of a stretch (if he is in fact a Psyker) to say: "The staff lets him cast up to three, then, he may take another for being a Psyker, then he may take another for being a psyker with MoT"" The other issue is the fact that page 88 specifically states that "The only exception to being able to cast one power per turn is a psyker with Mark of Tzeentch" meaning that

While the staff allows Ahriman to make 3 TESTS a turn, the rules for Chaos Psychic Powers STILL limit him to "Two powers a turn"

So Ahriman can for example...

Cast Warptime (using one of his tests and 1 power)
Cast Wind of Chaos (Using another of his tests and his second power)
And Use his Force Weapons ID ability in CC (The Third Test)

Or he can
Attempt to cast Warp time but fail (using one test and 0 powers)
Attempt to cast Warp time and pass (using test 2 and power 1)
And Cast Wind of Chaos and pass (using Test 3 and Power 2)

Which is interesting... as weird as it sounds, when looking at "crazy" rulings like this, I find I learn a lot that has been ignored in the past...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I merely asked as the staff states "it (in reference to the staff) allows Ahriman to make up to 3 psychic test in a turn" so I don't see how its too much of a stretch (if he is in fact a Psyker) to say: "The staff lets him cast up to three, then, he may take another for being a Psyker, then he may take another for being a psyker with MoT""

It's a stretch because, again, the Staff doesn't refer to them as 3 additional tests. The normal rules don't allow him to take 3 tests a turn. The staff does. So he can take three tests in a turn.

The other issue is the fact that page 88 specifically states that "The only exception to being able to cast one power per turn is a psyker with Mark of Tzeentch" meaning that

While the staff allows Ahriman to make 3 TESTS a turn, the rules for Chaos Psychic Powers STILL limit him to "Two powers a turn"

It points that out because for regular models, the Mark of Tzeentch is the only exception. Ahriman's staff granting him another exception is no different to any other special rule that 'breaks' a core rule of the game.



There is a RAW argument to be made for the Staff allowing him to make Tests but not explicitly to actually cast Psychic Powers, on the basis that nowhere do the rules specifically state that passing a psychic test automatically allows you to cast a Psychic Power... just that if you are attempting to use a power you have to pass a test to do so... but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would seriously argue that was anything other than loose wording. It's blatantly obvious that an ability that allows him to make 3 Psychic tests a turn is supposed to allow him to use 3 Psychic Powers.


Edit: Incidentally, if that hardline RAW stance was correct, your first example would be incorrect, as using a Force Weapon's power counts as using a Psychic Power.

insaniak wrote:
Edit: Incidentally, if that hardline RAW stance was correct, your first example would be incorrect, as using a Force Weapon's power counts as using a Psychic Power.

Actually, the staff's rules are what allow you to use one of the tests as the Force Weapon's special ability. Either way, I think they should just bring back the old rules for Ahriman (Multicast FTW!) to make things MUCH easier!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:As far as I have specifically read, special character wise

Huron is a psyker

Typhus is a psyker

Zogwart is a psyker

Eldrad is a psyker

The swarm lord is a psyker.

Doom of Malan'tai is a GOD.

Ezekiel is a psyker (lol dark angels)

Mephiston is KINDA a psyker (he has a special rule called "Psyker" but it does not specifically say if he is one or not)

Tigurius works like Njal (where in he has the "Master Psyker" rule, but not the "Psyker" rule).

Can't think of any others (That I have to codex for) that say any different.

~DAR

2 whole pages and noone has written a cited, rules-lawyer response?

Oh wait... if you read the entire thread and combine the posts of Ordo and Insaniak, you get what combines into a 'lawyered' response.