Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

His rules do not state that he is a psyker, two pages later, under Typus' entry, it explicitly states that Typhus is a Psyker.

Is Ahriman a Psyker (For all extensive purposes for game terms and effects) or is his just some insane sorcerer that actually isn't a psyker, but has the ability to use Psychic powers?

This made my day. It seems no, but he is allowed to make psychic tests because of wargear.



Time to read!

kirsanth wrote:This made my day. It seems no, but he is allowed to make psychic tests because of wargear.



Time to read!

This.

He is allowed to make the Psychic tests to use the powers, but technically is not a Psyker.

It is even called out in his rules that he can use psychic tests to activate his force weapon.

Which is just bizarre if he is a bona fide psyker.

Too funny.

So he is safe from Crucible of Malediction and "Abhor the witch!"(I made a funny) WOOT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oo oo! Does that mean that (Since he is not a psyker) he is immunt to perils of the warp wounds? (as perils only wounds a "Psyker")

And Psychic abomination (on pariahs)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:So he is safe from Crucible of Malediction and "Abhor the witch!"(I made a funny) WOOT!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oo oo! Does that mean that (Since he is not a psyker) he is immunt to perils of the warp wounds? (as perils only wounds a "Psyker")

And Psychic abomination (on pariahs)

Not perils. Since he makes Psychic tests, he must follow the rules for them, which means he will take them as though he were a psyker and thus suffer PotW.

The rulebook section on Psykers never actually says that the model must have the 'Psyker' rule to be considered a Psyker. Reading through it, it seems fairly clear that it considers any model using a Psychic Power to be a Psyker.



And if he's not a Psyker, he won't be making Psychic tests, since the only rules available for using Psychic Powers are the rules for Psykers...

Seriously? I loled.

Saves him from bolt stake crossbows, psykout warheads and a bunch of other stuff though, so I'm happy about it!

insaniak wrote:And if he's not a Psyker, he won't be making Psychic tests, since the only rules available for using Psychic Powers are the rules for Psykers...

Except his staff explicitly allows him to take Psychic tests.

Specific > General

Gwar! wrote:Not perils. Since he makes Psychic tests, he must follow the rules for them, which means he will take them as though he were a psyker and thus suffer PotW.

While I do agree with you on this Gwar, my curiousity is getting the better of me...

Would he really have to take perils? Perils of the warp is a rule listed under the rules for Psykers, not Psychic Tests, as it is his staff which allows him to make a psychic test (as defined on page 50 as a leadership test which must be taken on the "psykers" leadership... which brings alot more to question) and "Perils of the warp" is a rule for psykers that states "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or a double 6, this indicates that something horrible has happened to the Psyker" as Ahriman is not a psyker, and codex > BRB, wouldn't he be safe from the perils as nothing could "go horribly wrong for him" (perils) as he is not a Psyker... the only case I see this getting REALLY haze is Runes of Warding (Which specifically states that whenever a enemy makes a psychic test, he uses 3 D6 and if the result = 12 or greater, he suffers perils)

also

insaniak wrote:The rulebook section on Psykers never actually says that the model must have the 'Psyker' rule to be considered a Psyker. Reading through it, it seems fairly clear that it considers any model using a Psychic Power to be a Psyker.

in CSM, everything else that can use a psychic ability has the specific label of "Psyker", in other codexes (all I have read anyway) the same is present.

Interesting, is there any other model out there with psychic powers that isn't a psyker?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:codex > BRB,

Not actually true. Specific > General, but Codex does NOT always trump BRB.

Grakmar wrote:Interesting, is there any other model out there with psychic powers that isn't a psyker?

not that I have found, even the Forge World Daemon Lords (Zarak and Scabby) are "Psykers"

Grakmar wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:codex > BRB,

Not actually true. Specific > General, but Codex does NOT always trump BRB.

According to RAW unfortunately, it does, and as such, the Dark Eldar currently have 0 unit types, and according to RAW, the Talos does NOT get2d6 for armor pen.

Remember

The Errata have the same level of 'authority' as the main rules, as they effectively modify the published material. They are 'hard' material. It is a good idea to read them and be aware of their existence, but luckily there are very few of them for each book.

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material

Talos being an MC was covered under FAQ not Errata.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:According to RAW unfortunately, it does, and as such, the Dark Eldar currently have 0 unit types, and according to RAW, the Talos does NOT get2d6 for armor pen.

Yes, we know that.

That still doesn't make Codex > Rulebook...

Gwar! wrote:
That still doesn't make Codex > Rulebook...

Honest curiosity, are there any examples of which this does not take place?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:in CSM, everything else that can use a psychic ability has the specific label of "Psyker", in other codexes (all I have read anyway) the same is present.

That doesn't mean that the 'Psyker' label is required. It's just there for clarity. The rulebook makes no distinction... The rules for using psychic powers are only found in the 'Psykers' section of the book. Reading through that section, even if it's not explicitly stated, there's a very clear inference that a model that uses psychic powers is a Psyker.

Sweeping advance and Ork LD (via Mob Rule) are two quick examples where the main rules need to take precedence.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:That still doesn't make Codex > Rulebook...

Honest curiosity, are there any examples of which this does not take place?

Sweeping Advance is one that comes to mind immediately. Not to mention Power Weapons (Codex Says I get Armour Save, PW Says no Armour Save, if Codex > Rulebook then PW never work).

Gwar! wrote:Sweeping Advance is one that comes to mind immediately.

are you saying that because the rules for sweeping advance do not exist

in most codexes, that they would not exist as described in the main rulebook?

Gwar! wrote:
Not to mention Power Weapons (Codex Says I get Armour Save, PW Says no Armour Save, if Codex > Rulebook then PW never work).

Which codex says this? (I only ask because I have never seen a codex which states that its power weapons allow for armor saves)

I am genuinely confused on this one, so please, if my tone seems off, my apologies.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Sweeping Advance is one that comes to mind immediately.

are you saying that because the rules for sweeping advance do not exist

in most codexes, that they would not exist as described in the main rulebook?

Gwar! wrote:
Not to mention Power Weapons (Codex Says I get Armour Save, PW Says no Armour Save, if Codex > Rulebook then PW never work).

Which codex says this? (I only ask because I have never seen a codex which states that its power weapons allow for armor saves)

I am genuinely confused on this one, so please, if my tone seems off, my apologies.

No, what I mean is that SA says that unless a codex SPECIFICALLY allows you to avoid it, you can't. This means SA overrides WBB etc.

As for Power Weapons, PW Rules are found in the Rulebook. Power Armour says you have a 3+ Armour save. If Codex > Rulebook, then you would get your armour save ALWAYS, even against Power Weapons.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

The Errata have the same level of 'authority' as the main rules, as they effectively modify the published material. They are 'hard' material. It is a good idea to read them and be aware of their existence, but luckily there are very few of them for each book.

The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material

Talos being an MC was covered under FAQ not Errata.

A pointless distinction, so far as most players are concerned. I would remind you of the Tenets of YMDC. Let's leave the 'officialness of the FAQ' discussion at the door.

Gwar! wrote:No, what I mean is that SA says that unless a codex SPECIFICALLY allows you to avoid it, you can't. This means SA overrides WBB etc.

This makes perfect sense!

Gwar! wrote:
As for Power Weapons, PW Rules are found in the Rulebook. Power Armour says you have a 3+ Armour save. If Codex > Rulebook, then you would get your armour save ALWAYS, even against Power Weapons.

I guess Dark Eldar would be safe however, as their codex specifically says that power-weapons have the ability to ignore armor saves, and the it would be your codex "Giving you the save" and my codex "Taking it away". Interesting however, that you view the Armor save as Activated, I always thought of armor saves as Passive, and abilities such as "Power weapons" as activated (activated on "Causing a wound" the activated ability being "Ignoring Passive Armor saving throws" (as the armor save from power armor to me is more of a passive characteristic instead of an activated characteristic like that of a power-fist making one Initiative 1 when striking)

Very interesting...... but again, what would be the final word on "Ahriman taking perils" as Perils is under the rules for Psykers...

Also, @insaniak, if Ahriman IS infact a psyker, then he has the ability to cast 5 spells in one turn,

3 from his staff

1 for being a CSM Psyker (See page 88 of C:CSM)

and 1 more for being a Psyker with Mark of Tzeentch.

Even when including the FAQ, the faq does not state that Ahriman is a Psyker (neither does INAT for that matter)

Grakmar wrote:Interesting, is there any other model out there with psychic powers that isn't a psyker?

Grey Knight Terminators. They have the Holocaust psychic power but technically is not labeled as a psyker.


I believe that the fact that Ahriman has "psychic powers" is enough to qualify him as a psyker. Otherwise, none of his powers, including his force weapon, would work.

jy2 wrote:Otherwise, none of his powers, including his force weapon, would work.

Unless he had something like a weapon or piece or wargear that specifically called out his ability to use psychic powers and force weapons. . .

/boggle

Except he doesn't, exactly. He has a piece of wargear that allows him to take Psychic Tests, and to cast Psychic Shooting Attacks.

I don't have the codex with me at the moment to check if all of his powers are shooting powers... but any power that isn't a shooting power, he wouldn't be able to use. He can take the test to use it... but if he isn't a Psyker, the test doesn't actually do anything.

insaniak wrote:Except he doesn't, exactly. He has a piece of wargear that allows him to take Psychic Tests, and to cast Psychic Shooting Attacks.

I don't have the codex with me at the moment to check if all of his powers are shooting powers... but any power that isn't a shooting power, he wouldn't be able to use. He can take the test to use it... but if he isn't a Psyker, the test doesn't actually do anything.

Now you are sounding like Gwar! in the "but the Swarmlord is not a Hive Tyrant / Doom isn't a Zoanthrope" or whatnot threads.



Just to be sure where we all stand on this before the rules references matter.
He has wargear that allows him to make the tests, and rules that allow him to have the powers that require those rolls (again going out of the way to include Force weapon usage), yet you are going to actually take it to the level of saying "but those general rules reference a different model" route?



(Also, the shooting weapon reference in the rules are to allow him to use multiple PSAs)

editing to add:
I realize the potential conflict here, but the OP really seems to be asking "Do the rules really say that?"

Keep in mind that while his Black Staff let's him to "make up to 3 psychic tests in the same turn" and also "allows him to use several powers that count as firing a weapon", the staff itself has no psychic powers. The psychic powers that Ahriman possesses are his own, not the wargear's power.

Now if you can make the leap of faith that the wargear is refering to Ahriman's psychic powers, I don't see why one can't make that same leap of faith that Ahriman is a psyker because he has psychic powers.

He knows sorcery, and has a staff that allows him to utilyze those sorceries according to the rules--since he is not allowed to otherwise since he is not listed as a psyker.

What leap of faith?

Editing to add:
It seems that he has few of the penalties for being a psyker, and perhaps is missing some bonuses I am missing.
Why would that be so strange, really?

so. We have an Ahriman that can cast three spells a turn, has a force weapon, AND can cast non-attack spells. But thanks to the terrible wording of the lovely 4th edition chaos marine codex (I love this thing so much /sarcasm) He is not a psyker, no matter how obvious it is.

In fairness, it only gets annoying when you look for it in the rest of the book.

It's mostly funny with him.

Then again, it's chaos. The other chaos is full of magical powers used by non-psykers too.

kirsanth wrote:He knows sorcery, and has a staff that allows him to utilyze those sorceries according to the rules--since he is not allowed to otherwise since he is not listed as a psyker.

What leap of faith?

Editing to add:
It seems that he has few of the penalties for being a psyker, and perhaps is missing some bonuses I am missing.
Why would that be so strange, really?

If you want to get RAW technical, he wouldn't be able to use any of those powers if he is not a psyker, staff or no staff.

Look in the CSM codex, p.88, under their psychic powers: "A psyker may only attempt to use one psychic power per turn...."