Space Wolf Tactica --- YOU ASK, I ANSWER --- Will Be Merged Into An Article

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**Just Dave**

Deathwolf wrote:You previously referred to having a favorite set up for Thunderwolf Cavalry. I currently run 2 squads. My load out is as follows:
bolt pistol / chainsword
storm shield / chainsword
bolt pistol / thunder hammer
boltpistol / chainsword / melta bombs
bolter / chainsword
This totals to 315 points and is primarily designed for wound allocation. I also run 2 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves:
runic armor
wolf tail talisman
wolftooth necklace
saga of majesty / saga of the bear
frost axe / thunder hammer
bolt pistol / storm shield
belt of russ / -
I've had a lot of luck with this unit build but do you have any suggestions?

Not really to be honest, both of those look good!

My preferred Thunderwolf set-up is:
- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword.
- Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, meltabomb.
- Chainsword, Storm Shield.
- Bolt Pistol Thunder Hammer
265pts

This is pretty much the same as yours just with less men as personally I feel four is the optimum level for points efficiency, but obviously it's not too major a difference. Once again, like yours, this can strike hard, fast and against anything. Also, like yours, they benefit from multiple, T5 wounds, wound allocation and a Storm Shield.
All I'd advise on top of this is that you give them a screen of Fenrisian Wolves or vehicles.

Your Wolf Lords also seem to have a good load-out. Frost Blades are good on Thunderwolf Lords, as are WC's and high-strength weapons, such as your power-fist.
I also like what you've done in terms of the extra attack with the Frost blade so using a Belt instead of a Shield, most people will usually opt for the shield simply because of its reputation. Good thinking man, smart. Similar toughness, but extra attack.
It's obvious that your Lords will be very tough and very killy, the only thing I disagree with is some of the more 'useless' upgrades such as Necklace (WS6 should be fine), the talisman (if that ever works, I'll be amazed) and arguably the runic armour. The former two atleast are a waste of points IMHO and the Runic Armour you could potentially go without, but it's not a bad thing, just more points. 2+ save never hurt anyone. Literally.

The only flaws with those three however are - of course - with all things Thunderwolf, the points cost.
Otherwise though, it seems very solid. Good work man, not much I can really add to it.

**Deathwolf**

I'm glad that you suggested dropping the Wolf Tail Talisman. I have them in there mainly to defend against Lash but like you said, it never works. I'm a huge fan of the Runic Armor as it allows me to allocate that one Krak Missile wound or something similar onto the Wolf Lord and generally keeps the unit together longer. The Wolftooth Necklace has been a mixed bag for me. I'll probably drop at least one of the two eventually and try to match up my Wolftooth necklace with any close combat machines during deployment. What I have been struggling with is my Grey Hunter build. Currently I run 2 of the following as my only troops:
5 Grey Hunter - 1 meltagun
wolf guard - power fist, combi-melta
rhino
I had already been considering some alterations to that layout and after reading one of your earlier posts I'm pretty sure I should change that up. Just so you kno the rest of my 1850 point army is:
2 long fang squads each with 4 missile launchers (1 also has a wolf guard)
rune priest with living lightning and storm caller
I had already wanted to ditch the wolf guard for fluff reasons (I'm already running 10 thunderwolves each of which is ridden by a wolf guard. Adding 3 on foot means I'm running 13 wolf guard, 10 grey hunters, and 0 blood claws which doesn't feel right for Harald Deathwolf). After what you previously wrote I'll probably ditch the Wolf Guard but do you suggest the 10 man rhino squad or the razorback squad to match what I'm running?

**Brother Ramses**

Just Dave wrote:
minigun762 wrote:Also not a SW player but what are the more competitive Grey Hunter loadouts and how do you know when to include the Wolf Guard in your squad?

Good question my man, will be very useful to many also. My opinion is as follows:

The two main competitive Grey Hunter load-outs involve the use of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods, Land Raiders and Foot-slog are all semi-competitive.
As for the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, generally they should be added to squads that need the extra punch (eg. Blood-claws, Long Fangs) or that can afford the extra room (eg. Razorbacks). However it's worth noting that Wolf Guard joining a troop choice become a scoring model itself, even if the rest of the squad is destroyed. Therefore allowing scoring terminators.

Either way, Grey Hunters should be the bread and butter of most Space Wolf armies: they're definitely the best Space Wolf troop choice and are often rated as the best in 40K all-together. Similarly, one of the real advantages of Grey Hunters lies in their flexibility and capability at short-range. I am strongly of the belief that Grey Hunters should NOT be used as an assault unit, but as a close-quarters (not combat) unit. This means, that instead of rushing forwards with Wolf Guard in tow and charging into the enemy, a pack of Wolf Guard should advance on the enemy, rapid fire into them and receive the charge from the remnants of the enemy. I don't see them as an assault unit, but instead a counter-assault unit. I'd be willing to explain this in more detail later, even so I shall move back onto topic and suggest typical builds:

Rhino Based
10x Grey Hunter, 2x Special Weapon (2x Melta, 2x Plasma, 2xFlamer), Counter-assault bonus(s) (MotW, Wolf Standard), Rhino.

- 10 Space Marines (Grey Hunters specifically) is a tough and dangerous unit. Having the bodies and strength of arms to face almost any enemy and win in attrition at-least.
- The 2 Special Weapons give them extra fire-power and flexibility for relatively little cost. With 2 meltas, a Grey Hunter squad can be relied upon to take out tanks (2 meltaguns) and infantry (8 boltguns) alike. It's worth noting that special weapons should generally always be taken in pairs of the same gun (eg. 2x Melta, not 1x melta, 1x flamer) in order to maximise effectiveness.
- The MotW and/or Standard provide some extra punch/bonus for when (not if) the Grey Hunters reach close combat. MotW is almost always the better of the two, but they work particularly well when taken together. With a base of 3 attacks (2x CCW, counter-charge, 1 base) each the Grey Hunters can generally take care of themselves anyway, but with a MotW and/or Standard then they can really dominate in close combat and range. Note that Power Fists and Power Weapons aren't too effective as they power fist will amass too few attacks (2) for too many points and the power sword is too limited in use, particularly compared to MotW.
- Rhino's are best kept cheap (not extra armour, HK's) and cheerful and in the mechanised environment of 5th ed they are very useful, ensuring your unit reaches its destination.

My preferred Grey Hunter load-out is:
- 10x Grey Hunter, 2x melta, MotW, Rhino - 205pts.

Razorback Set-up
Unlike the above squad who will need to close with the enemy, you want to keep this squad at arms reach. Due to the Razorback, their main role is to sit at the back in your deployment and shoot the enemy from a distance (akin to Long Fangs). During the first turns they will sit back and shoot, during the later turns they will be quickly transported to take objectives and/or finish off the enemy. The squad itself isn't particularly strong, but it's good for it's intentions which is stealing objectives (MSU's) and mopping up enemy units.
Unlike the above squad, this Razorback's squad strength lies in it's Razorback, rather than itself. The Razorback will provide the much needed heavy weapons and transport the unit at the end. Don't expect miracles from a 5-man unit, but this set-up is very effective in groups as this multiplies the fire-power, improves ability to capture objectives and compensates for the individual units weaknesses and small numbers.

Generally I'd advise having the following as a Razorback unit:
5x Grey Hunter, 1x Special Weapon, 1x Counter-Attack Equipment (MotW/Standard), Razorback.

- The 5-man unit is weak on its own, but very effective in multiples. With 5-men then it's also great for escorting characters such as Rune Priests whose LL ability compliments the firepower of the Razorback. MSU's are best for capturing objectives and working in unison.
- The Special Weapon/ counter-attack wargear adds some extra punch to an other-wise weak unit. As each squad can only take 1 special weapon, flamers are generally best. However both plasma's and melta's could be taken if needed.
- The Razorback is the key part of this squad (outlined above). Generally IMHO the Twin-Linked Lascannon or Assault Cannon's are the best choices, providing some devastating fire-power. Take which-ever compliments the rest of your army. Eg. Lascannon = Long Fangs/ Long Range. Assault Cannon = Vindicators/ Short Range. Heavy Bolters and Las/Plas are also good options, particularly the cheap bolters. Avoid the over-costed Heavy Flamers though.
- A Wolf Guard Pack Leader could also be added to Razorback squads: his combi-weapon compensating for the loss of the (free) special weapon and his close combat ability really strengthening the unit. This is one of the best places to use pack-leaders as the can really bolster the line and their leadership and abilities really benefits the small squad.
My preferred build:
5x Grey Hunter, Flamer, MotW, TL-LC Razorback - 165pts

Other builds:
- Drop Pod, 2x Special Weapon, MotW and/or Standard, 10x Grey Hunters.
Give them meltas and both close-combat bonuses and they go from being a suicide unit to a quite significant threat to the enemy. The Drop Pod will drop them straight on the enemies door-step (Grey Hunters happy place), ensures the Melta's are all ready close to the enemy and due to the nature of drop-pods, the Motw and Standard will help due to the proximity of the enemy and therefore increased likelihood of CC.
Also, this is a good place to put a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Give him terminator armour and you have a tough, leader-ship boosting warrior who benefits the ability to steal objectives and stay in the fight. The combi-weapon helps compensate for the loss of a special weapon (occasionally the likes of an assault cannon could be taken!) and like the MotW/Standard, the Pack-Leader's close combat ability is a bonus due to proximity of the enemy.
Preferred Build:
8x Grey Hunter, MotW, Meltagun, Drop Pod. Pack Leader w/ combi-melta, powerfist and terminator armour - 218pts

- 10x Grey Hunter, 2x Special Weapon (not flamer here), Standard.
As ever in 5th edition, the foot-slog build is less competitive but here is how I'd recommend creating it anyway.
The Numbers are ever-handy and being foot-slog they'll need the extra bodies to withstand enemy fire-power.
The special weapons should ideally be plasmaguns due to their range, hence the lack of flamers which may not even get used with the foot-slog's lack of mobility.
The standard is a cheap boost to close combat, close combat which they are less-likely to reach due to their lack of mobility. Hence the cheaper Standard.
Here you should try to have Pack Leaders in Terminator Armour also. They don't restrict transports (foot-slog), provide extra toughness and punch at range and in close combat.

So yes, for Grey Hunters I'd strongly recommend using Rhinos or Razorbacks (although the Razorback build is common these days), however I've tried to provide advice for all options.
Pack Leaders are good in theory, but can limit transport options and space, limiting the free-special weapon. I never recommend them for rhino Grey Hunters but they are good additions to the other variants. Note that a Wolf Guard with powerfist is 2pts less than a Grey Hunter with power-fist, but will have an extra attack and leadership point.

Hope that helps.

Great review but I do have one point of contention.

My GH are the literal backbone of my army. I need them to break units on objectives, I need them to hold objectives against units trying to take those objectives, and I need them to be able to take on almost everything in an opponents army.

That being said; the powerfist, despite reduced attacks in subsequent rounds of combat, is an essential addition to my standard 10man build outs. I cannot afford to have my GH packs locked in a meat grinder with an enemy I cannot even hurt or takes an outrageous to wound roll to hurt. They need to get stuff killed and continue doing what I need them to do which while MoW is capable, it is not as reliable.

Walkers and monstrous creatures come to mind specifically in that I have had several instances where my opponent has used them to push me off an objective and in almost all cases it was the powerfist that made the difference when it came down to winning assaults.

Now while it is limited in subsequent rounds of combat, that is not really a problem for me. I get my two attacks on the charge (when taking objectives) and I get two attacks on the counterattack (when defending objectives). When I need it the most, I have my two attacks.

**Anpu42**

I find that if you have a MotW the Power Fist is a good counter Balance to it.

My normal Grey hunter Packs are:
-1x Grey Hunter with Power Fist and Wolf Standard
-1x Grey Hunter with MotW
-1x Grey Hunter with Plasma Pistol
-2x Grey Hunters with Plasma Guns
-5x Grey Hunters
-1x Wolf Guard Pack Leader with Thunder Hammer and Storm Bolter [I don’t have enough Combi-Plasma]

When it come to holding Objectives they are hard to push off. The MotW acts as a “Power Weapon” when it gets a rend, and the Power Fist Guaranties a wound most of the time when it hits, I would rather have 1 2+ wound than 2 4+ Wound hits any day.

I have thought about adding a Rhino or Razorback just to add some fire support in the defense on my side of the board. With the Rhino I should have taken at least one casualty by turn 3 or 4, and then I can load up the Rhino and race to take another objective.

**Just Dave**

Anpu, you realise that such a unit costs about 270pts and is horribly points inefficient IMHO?

Brother Ramses wrote:
Great review but I do have one point of contention.

My GH are the literal backbone of my army. I need them to break units on objectives, I need them to hold objectives against units trying to take those objectives, and I need them to be able to take on almost everything in an opponents army.

That being said; the powerfist, despite reduced attacks in subsequent rounds of combat, is an essential addition to my standard 10man build outs. I cannot afford to have my GH packs locked in a meat grinder with an enemy I cannot even hurt or takes an outrageous to wound roll to hurt. They need to get stuff killed and continue doing what I need them to do which while MoW is capable, it is not as reliable.

Walkers and monstrous creatures come to mind specifically in that I have had several instances where my opponent has used them to push me off an objective and in almost all cases it was the powerfist that made the difference when it came down to winning assaults.

Now while it is limited in subsequent rounds of combat, that is not really a problem for me. I get my two attacks on the charge (when taking objectives) and I get two attacks on the counterattack (when defending objectives). When I need it the most, I have my two attacks.

Thanks for the feedback man. I appreciate some debate.

I completely understand what you are saying and it's a good point. You will of course want your Grey Hunters to be able to be relied upon and obviously the squads I suggested don't really have much chance against a walker in close combat.
However, in my opinion (although you do raise a good point) I still feel the powerfist is expensive and considering that I typically have a melta gun, then dreadnoughts etc. should not really be getting into combat with the Grey Hunters.
To me at least, such units would not be allowed to reach the Grey Hunters due to their priority as a target anyway. No unit should have to work completely independently and as such nothing the size of a walker or MC should be getting into combat with my Grey Hunters. The plasma/melta's could potentially destroy them first and even then they'd likely be targeted by something else in the army (Long Fangs/Split Fire).

However, if your local meta contains lots of Dreadnoughts and or monstrous creatures then by all means I'd recommend a Power Fist. Similarly some units such as Trygons and Daemon Princes (although they are pretty much the only two) are too fast for the Grey Hunters to engage them out-side of CC anyway.
I really do see your point and will include it in the tactica/article (

) however, I also believe that in most cases the powerfist should/will not be needed...

**Anpu42**

Actually without Transports they run about 225, but they work. It is usually the combination of two of the Plasma Gun Packs and my two Long Fang Pack that win the Game for me. If I am wasting point its because I hardly ever get to fire my Plasma Pistols more than once or Twice during the Game everything else gets used a lot.

One of the other things to think about when building you list is your Core. Using the same basic build that you have found to work for you. I have found for me when I use more than one Grey Hunter Pack I tend to drop into a Gunline mode unless I have a lot of “Assault Units” involved. Once I recognized this I started to tailor my list to my play style.

List Building: Grey Hunter Gunlines

Now I normally run Gunline all infantry list and have just started to really play with vehicles. I have been experiment with other combinations and are finding if you want to Gunline 2-4 Grey Hunter and 2-3 Long Fangs as your “Core” Units seem to make a good list. I can easily add 250-500 points’ worth of additional units and not mess up my normal set up. If I end up adding something like Blood Claws or TWC I switch out the Plasma Guns for Melta Guns.

This is a good example one of my List:
-My normal set up is put the two Long Fangs in the back on high ground in cover if I can get it. I put the two Plasma Gun Grey Hunters in a Blocking Position. The two Flamer armed Grey Hunters on the flanks. Some time I will switch up the Grey hunter to keep regular opponents of balance. Once more in cover if possible.
If I need to be aggressive, they are Grey Hunters; I can do a Walking Firing Line. The Flamers are good for keeping Swarms Honest.
-The Missile Launchers and Las-Cannons give me Good Anti Armor. I added the Heavy Bolter on a whim while building the 2nd Long Fangs and found a Scout Heavy Bolter in my Bits Box; I have found it very useful in every game so far [I love Fire Control].
-The two Rune Priest are there to keep Infiltrators at bay and to give either my Long Fangs some extra punch or give two of my Grey Hunters a LD 10. I chose the Power for two reasons.
1] Living Lighting: Lang Range Anti-Armor/MC
2] Murderous Hurricane/Tempest Wrath: Keeping Jump Infantry and Skimmers at bay. Remember Murderous Hurricane Does not require you to Damage the unit to mess with them.

1500 October Grey Hunters

Rune Priest @ 140 pts (Chooser of the Slain; Runic Armor; Wolftooth Necklace; Bolt Pistol x1; Runic Weapon x1; Living Lightning; Murderous Hurricane)

Rune Priest @ 145 pts (Melta Bombs; Runic Armor; Wolftooth Necklace; Runic Weapon x1; Bolter x1, Living Lightning; Tempest's Wrath)

1st Grey Hunters Pack @ 225 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x7; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasmagun x2; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)

2nd Grey Hunters Pack @ 225 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x7; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasmagun x2; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)

3rd Grey Hunters Pack @ 215 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x7; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Flamer x2; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)

4th Grey Hunters Pack @ 215 pts (Mark of the Wulfen; Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x7; Bolter x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Flamer x2; Plasma Pistol x1; Power Fist x1)

1st Long Fangs Pack @ 155 pts (Close Combat Weapon x5; Missile Launcher x5)
-Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

2nd Long Fangs Pack @ 180 pts (Close Combat Weapon x5; Heavy Bolter x1; Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2)
-Squad Leader (Bolt Pistol x1; Power Weapon x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1500

**Just Dave**

That's true Anpu, although the squad you recommended included a Wolf Guard which ramped the points up further.

I do query your lists manoeuverability and ability to deal with AV13/14, but I would rather leave the discussion alone as frankly its taking up space and actual queries tbh.

Speaking of which...

Deathwolf wrote:I'm glad that you suggested dropping the Wolf Tail Talisman. I have them in there mainly to defend against Lash but like you said, it never works. I'm a huge fan of the Runic Armor as it allows me to allocate that one Krak Missile wound or something similar onto the Wolf Lord and generally keeps the unit together longer. The Wolftooth Necklace has been a mixed bag for me. I'll probably drop at least one of the two eventually and try to match up my Wolftooth necklace with any close combat machines during deployment. What I have been struggling with is my Grey Hunter build. Currently I run 2 of the following as my only troops:
5 Grey Hunter - 1 meltagun
wolf guard - power fist, combi-melta
rhino
I had already been considering some alterations to that layout and after reading one of your earlier posts I'm pretty sure I should change that up. Just so you kno the rest of my 1850 point army is:
2 long fang squads each with 4 missile launchers (1 also has a wolf guard)
rune priest with living lightning and storm caller
I had already wanted to ditch the wolf guard for fluff reasons (I'm already running 10 thunderwolves each of which is ridden by a wolf guard. Adding 3 on foot means I'm running 13 wolf guard, 10 grey hunters, and 0 blood claws which doesn't feel right for Harald Deathwolf). After what you previously wrote I'll probably ditch the Wolf Guard but do you suggest the 10 man rhino squad or the razorback squad to match what I'm running?

True, I think Runic Armour is handy piece of wargear which you obviously have found a good use for, I guess IMHO it doesn't matter too much whether you use it or not, but obviously it helps. Just a problem if points are tight...
But yeah, I would've been surprised if you'd got much use out of the tails and playtesting the necklaces is a good (nay, the best) method, so kudos there too!

As for your troop choices this could also apply to the Canis list that was queried about. It's a difficult question and tbh not one I can answer easily (thanks!

), I think in most cases it depends on your lists as both methods have their pro's and cons in a Thunderwolf-heavy list.
---------------
Rhino Pro's:
- Physical Cover (screen) for Thunderwolves
- Close Quarters = better support
- More manoeuvrable.

Rhino Cons:
- Low armour value
- Puts your (few) troop choices in harms way

Razorback Pro's:
- Provides extra fire-power which is usually lacking
- MSU's = better for taking objectives

Razorback Cons:
- No cover/screen for TWC
- More expensive for same number of troops
------------------

I think judging by your needs I'd recommend Rhino's. Your Long Fangs can provide enough fire-power without need for Razorbacks so this way your rhino's can physically screen the 10 TWC who should they reach the enemy lines, will cause serious trouble.
However, two 10-man rhinos probably isn't enough troops. This would leave you with 2 easy-to-negate troop choices. So unless you are able to squeeze in 3 10-man Rhino squads I'd have to advise you opt for Razorbacks instead.
If you can get 3 rhino-squads then I think that's your best choice and the natural support for Thunderwolves. You may be able to achieve this through dropping the Wolf Guard and Rune Priest?
As you said though, 13 Wolf Guard (outnumbering Grey Hunters) isn't exactly fluffy, although nor is 2 Wolf Lords! And considering it could be Harald's retinue it could make sense?

However, I'd like to avoid answering list-specific questions tbh as they won't really be applicable to the article. Thanks man, hope that helps.

**Deathwolf**

Thanks for the suggestions.
You've given me a direction to start test playing and that's what I was looking for. I've had a running 1850 game against Kirasu. The next round is tomorrow vs. his Blood Angels. I may try the 10 man squads in that game and see how it goes. Thanks again.

**Chosen Praetorian**

Great thread!
I run a super cheap grey hunter squad decked out as follows:
5x Grey Hunters
1x Melta/ Rhino with a Dozer blade
1 Attached Wolf gaurd with a combi-melta

Its only 143pts and i still have 18 attacks sitting still so i should deal 4.5 wounds, which is only 3 less than if they were 10 strong. I know i could fit them into a razor back but that would add 40pts and i lose the ability to do a melta drive by. (which i find hugely affective) At my pt value i can take 6 squads for only 720pts and still have 12 meltas (well, for the first round of shooting) I also play thunder wolves so people dont even shoot at my rhinos anyway.
What's your opinion of this?

**Just Dave**

Chosen Praetorian wrote:Great thread!
I run a super cheap grey hunter squad decked out as follows:
5x Grey Hunters
1x Melta/ Rhino with a Dozer blade
1 Attached Wolf gaurd with a combi-melta

Its only 143pts and i still have 18 attacks sitting still so i should deal 4.5 wounds, which is only 3 less than if they were 10 strong. I know i could fit them into a razor back but that would add 40pts and i lose the ability to do a melta drive by. (which i find hugely affective) At my pt value i can take 6 squads for only 720pts and still have 12 meltas (well, for the first round of shooting) I also play thunder wolves so people dont even shoot at my rhinos anyway.
What's your opinion of this?

Looks like a good idea man, I admit I've never really thought about that but it seems good. It doesn't quite have the independence or strength of the Razorback/Rhino builds but I think for your needs it's good.
I'm just trying to provide a general advice service, I love it when people come out with original ideas such as that though, it makes a nice change so congrats!
It's not the best for anti-tank or capturing objectives, but with the quantity you claim to use it then it's good!

Just a small piece of advice, you may find adding a couple of 10-man Rhino's actually helps to take fire away from your TWC or you could use your rhino's to screen the TWC as I at least would prefer to ensure they get into assault rather than being a 200pts+ meat-shield.

As I said though, it looks good.

**Chosen Praetorian**

Just Dave wrote:
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Great thread!
I run a super cheap grey hunter squad decked out as follows:
5x Grey Hunters
1x Melta/ Rhino with a Dozer blade
1 Attached Wolf gaurd with a combi-melta

Its only 143pts and i still have 18 attacks sitting still so i should deal 4.5 wounds, which is only 3 less than if they were 10 strong. I know i could fit them into a razor back but that would add 40pts and i lose the ability to do a melta drive by. (which i find hugely affective) At my pt value i can take 6 squads for only 720pts and still have 12 meltas (well, for the first round of shooting) I also play thunder wolves so people dont even shoot at my rhinos anyway.
What's your opinion of this?

Looks like a good idea man, I admit I've never really thought about that but it seems good. It doesn't quite have the independence or strength of the Razorback/Rhino builds but I think for your needs it's good.
I'm just trying to provide a general advice service, I love it when people come out with original ideas such as that though, it makes a nice change so congrats!
It's not the best for anti-tank or capturing objectives, but with the quantity you claim to use it then it's good!
Just a small piece of advice, you may find adding a couple of 10-man Rhino's actually helps to take fire away from your TWC or you could use your rhino's to screen the TWC as I at least would prefer to ensure they get into assault rather than being a 200pts+ meat-shield.

As I said though, it looks good.

Thats actually a good thought. If i throw two ten man units in rhinos it would deff be a good shield and its a tough unit. Ill try it out

**ShasO Ben**

Here's a tough question that I'm having trouble with, how do space wolves deal with Av 14 eg leman russ and how do we deal with 2+ saves like terminators. I'm trying to see how I can deal with a death star unit eg land raider TH/SS termies etc.

Thanks.

**Just Dave**

ShasO Ben wrote:Here's a tough question that I'm having trouble with, how do space wolves deal with Av 14 eg leman russ and how do we deal with 2+ saves like terminators. I'm trying to see how I can deal with a death star unit eg land raider TH/SS termies etc.

Thanks.

OK, well there are a variety of solutions to both. Also, as both AV14 and 2+saves are generally on expensive vehicles/units, then it's fine if you pour extra firepower into them.
The easiest way to deal with AV14 is generally melta-weapons, which are generally provided in the following ways:
- Land-Speeders: A MM/HF Land Speeder is both cheap, effective and versatile. It's speed gives it a high threat-range and can work wonders for area denial. Similarly due to its points cost and low armour, it's best to take these in pairs or 3's, in which case your opponent is over-whelmed with targets and therefore your Land Speeders are much more likely to survive and reduce enemy vehicles to slag.

- Wolf Scouts: Generally tanks such as a Leman Russ will be hogging the backfield. As such as small Wolf Scout squad could easily pop up behind it and make the most of the softer rear armour.

- Grey Hunters: Able to wield up to 2 meltaguns makes these a potent threat, yet still being flexible and scoring. 10 Grey Hunters with meltas in a rhino is a potent unit, as is MSU's with meltaguns.

- Dreadnoughts: A dreadnought with MM and Drop Pod(Deathwind) is just 160pts. This will create 2 AV12 targets in your opponents deployment zone and with the help of a drop-pod your dreadnought can arrive safely and accurately next to a tank which will subsquently be introduced to his multimelta. A slight suicide unit, but very cool, very effective and very distracting.

- Wolf Guard: Combi-melta's a gogo.

Other ways to take out AV14 is with massed las-cannons (Razorbacks), Thunderwolves with Fist/Hammer (Strength 10), Vindicators (Strength 10), Chain Fists (Wolf Guard and Lone Wolves) and generally most heavy weapons provided by the likes of Predators, Long Fangs and Dreadnoughts.
Another option is Logan Grimnar with a Lascannon-Long Fang squad, providing five str10 shots thanks to tank hunter! Not cheap, but very very deadly.

Similar methods and weaponry can be used against 2+ saves, massed lascannons, Thunderwolves and Vindicators in particular. However, Plasma Fire can work wonders, provided in quantity through Dreadnoughts and Combi-Plasma Wolf Guard.
Also, Power Weapons (Wolf Guard, Lone Wolves, HQ's) are similarly effective.
Other options can include: forcing a high number of saves (Blood Claws), JotWW (ignores armour) and simply destroying the transport and forcing the assault terminators to walk the rest of the way.

Hope that helps.

**doktor_g**

Howdy,
I am new to 40k but old hat to TTWG. I've now played a few 40k matches at my local shop. Here's my problem. My childhood pal lives 2000 miles away. I have about a year to muster an artfully painted force to counter his veteren Space Wolves. Ours will be friendly matches when we are reunited in a year over about a week. I suspect we will only get a handful of games in because we're older and married and will have to do some proper vacationing when together especially with our wives. We are good friends but I must crush him!!!!

So we're looking at about 500 to 1500 point games his first list includes Canis w 2 units of 4 Fernisian wolves, wolf lords, 2 units of 10 Grey hunters and some HQs. I am building a classic green tide but now I'm reconsidering after reading about SW tactica here. It looks like I'll be in trouble with my army. Kinda a bummer since I've already bought it. It's 2 units of 30 shootas, 1 unit of 20 sluggas. All lead by nobz with pk's. The sluggas are the tip of the spear and are also accompanied by a Waaagh! Banner and BM with KFF. All I have for heavy support is 1unit of 12 lootas and a BM w SAG. Important to the fluff of my army's story line is an overpriced (apparently) unit of 7boar riders (bikers) accompanied by one Nob rider with PK and Warboss boar rider (biker) with PK. I have a unit of Nobz that can be thrown out to free up points. If this list won't work or if all orky list will be devoured by SWs I need to know soon. We agreed that all fieldable units must be painted so if I need to build Tau Necron or whatever I need to know asap. Having two armies won't upset me as my step son wants to play too.

Thanks
Dr. G

**ShasO Ben**

@Just Dave
Thanks, I'll have to give the Land Speeders a try, I've tried everything else but speeders and dreadnaught and I refuse to risk the game on 1 multimelta shot comapred to 2 from speeders

.

Didnt think of JotWW against them, it'll be better then that annoying 2+ save.

Thanks again.

**timmyurma**

i think 3 swift claws are the best cheap infantry killers with a flamer and chainswords turbo boost on your first turn and get stuck in

Automatically Appended Next Post:
i think 3 swift claws are the best cheap infantry killers with a flamer and chainswords turbo boost on your first turn and get stuck in

**Just Dave**

Whoa! Thread Necromancy much?!
Nonetheless, these 3 swiftclaws still only pack 1 flamer and 9-12 attacks, as well as having to spend a turn turbo-boosting.
It's also not too often you need such a weak anti-infantry unit IMHO.

Ultimately, whilst it may work for you, I'd probably opt for a Land Speeder for such a role. Or a whirlwind if you're after specifically anti-infantry...

**Jihallah**

Threadomancy, yes. A Chance to exalt a good thread also. Good things sometimes come with misfortunes