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I don't have the time (and maybe never will) to finish my Space Wolf Tactica, in which I only got round to going over in detail, the potential HQ choices available. What I now intend to do is to gather much of the Space Wolf advice I have given out and merge it into one article, whereby the advice will be almost 'immortalised' and there for all to see and - hopefully - benefit from. By asking me questions here, you will be helping yourself and helping others.
By answering any general queries regarding to the tactics of Space Wolves I can hopefully gather a multitude of information to compile in one easy-to-access place, from which all can hopefully benefit.

So Please, ask me for any tactical advice referring to Space Wolves.

Note:
I will answer any queries as quickly as I can and to the best of my ability (within reason)
sources other than this thread will be used to compile the tactica
this is not the place for requesting army lists

Thanks, Dave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Example:
"Are Land Speeders worth using within a 'normal' Space Wolf Army?"


Yes, very much so. Land Speeders have a variety of uses, set-ups and abilities. They are an incredibly effective way of adding heavy weapons (particularly anti-tank) and speed to a Space Wolf army, something which could otherwise be lacking. The speed of Land Speeders can compensate for their fragility and allows them to be able to quickly engage the enemy, alongside other rapidly moving elements of a Space Wolf force (such as rhinos). Also, due to their typically low points cost, they can be 'expended' with little remorse. I find Land Speeders to be one of the best choices in the Space Wolf Fast-Attack and for a whole lot cheaper than the likes of Thunder wolf Cavalry.
These are my recommended builds for Land Speeders:
- Multi Melta: This is a simple and common way of configuring your Land Speeders, it makes them cheap and very fast moving threats to any tanks. The only drawback is their fragility, but their speed and Multi-Melta makes them a high-priority threat to your enemy and any tanks or monstrous creatures. A snip at 60pts, you get a fast-moving, deadly, intimidating and cheap way of destroying the enemy armour.

- Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer: My personal favourite way of configuring a Land Speeder, this has all the advantages of the above set-up, but is also a threat to enemy infantry. The addition of a heavy flamer effectively doubles its deadliness and adds a lot of versatility to the Land Speeder. Although more expensive at 70pts, it's not going to break the bank and the versatility is worth it IMHO. I recommend running these as 3 units of 1 at 210pts, giving your opponent a lot to worry about and giving you a lot of options.

- Typhoon Missile Launcher: A costly set-up but still effective. This is only really worth using in firepower-based Space Wolf armies, such as those that revolve around Long Fangs and Razorbacks. The 48" range helps compensate for its points cost/fragility and can provide some further firepower to your army. Combine 2 of these with 2 Long Fang Missile Launcher squads and you could be dishing out 14 missiles a turn, on top of any other units and heavy weapons (such as Lascannon Razorbacks). It's not cheap but it's not to be sniffed at either.

- 2x Heavy Bolter: A niche and uncommon set-up, this makes the Land Speeder cheap and cheerful as well as doubling its standard firepower for a 5th of the points. Although this doesn't make the unit particularly deadly, you could field six of these for 360pts, making them a serious thorn in your opponents side; a unit he needs to target but he can't really afford to. Although only effective against infantry (and anti-infantry isn't typically lacking in a Space Wolf army), it's a nice, simple and cheap build that can really pose a major threat to any enemy infantry. Like all Land Speeders, your opponent will feel the need to destroy them, but at only 60pts each, he will simultaneously feel it isn't worth it. Its things like this that can really make the Land Speeder worthwhile.

Well, I'm no Space Wolf, but I suppose I'll get the ball rolling...

From the looks of things, Skyclaws seem to take the usual place of Assault Marines in the army. But Skyclaws seem to be completely undesirable as an assault choice, with a lower WS and that role filled up by other fast atack choices such as the Thunder wolves. So, is there ever a reason for taking Skyclaws? Ever?

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:Well, I'm no Space Wolf, but I suppose I'll get the ball rolling...

From the looks of things, Skyclaws seem to take the usual place of Assault Marines in the army. But Skyclaws seem to be completely undesirable as an assault choice, with a lower WS and that role filled up by other fast atack choices such as the Thunder wolves. So, is there ever a reason for taking Skyclaws? Ever?

Aha! Thank you Lord of the Little, as useful as ever!

Sky Claws are a bit of a mixed bag and as you said, they're not as good as Assault Marines and have to compete with the likes of Thunder Wolf Cavalry. They do however have their uses.
For a 4-attack Jump-Pack Space Marine, 18pts is quite cheap and their mobility can massively increase their chances of getting the all-important charge. Much of the Space Wolf codex doesn't 'naturally' do Close Combat, so having specialist close combat units such as Wolf Guard, Blood Claws, Thunderwolf Cavalry and Skyclaws is a bonus of limited choice. However, compared to the other options, Sky Claws are significantly cheaper (although slightly worse). Thunderwolf Cavalry cost 50pts each and Wolf Guard and Blood Claws usually need something such as a Land Raider to get them into combat, costing more than the Skyclaws by itself.

Also, 4 TWC at 200pts can amass 24+ attacks on the charge ( I think). 10 Skyclaws at 180pts can amass 40 attacks on the charge which although at not the same strength or weapon skill, is still very deadly.
My recommended build for Skyclaws is:
10x Skyclaw, 1x Powerfist, 1x MotW - 220pts
To which you may also wish to add flamers or melta's and/or a Wolf Priest to further increase their effectiveness.

This unit outlined above had mobility, costs relatively little (for an Meq army), is deadly in close combat and is versatile, the Powerfist and even Motw helping against any big uglies in close combat. Dont expect the world from such a unit but they can work wonders and when combined with a mass of angry hairy dudes driving towards you (Grey Hunters etc.) and a few smaller hairy dudes (scouts) appearing behind you then they're a very useful addition.
Also, they can be extremely effective for getting to the more annoying and hard to reach enemies such as Loota's and Noise Marines.

As I said and as you can see for yourself, they're a mix bag and tricky to write a tactica on . They have their pro's and their cons and they have limited use, but they can still be very effective, useful and surprising. Focus using them to isolate enemy units and attack those that are a serious threat and/or hard to reach. Ultimately, they're not the best, but they're still good and can destroy the squishy and not-so-squishy alike.
They don't have the best weapon skill and they are tricky to control, but they can amass A LOT of attacks for relatively little and are the natural bane of and fragile infantry. However, there's always Thunderwolves to use instead!

Note: Some people use a Squad of Sky Claws, Wolf Priest (Jump Pack) and Wolf Lord (Jump Pack and goodies) as a hammer unit, which although costing in excess of 450+pts, is still very deadly. It's worth noting however at that price you could get 9 Thunderwolves and even more attacks, which also rend.


Hope that helps man.

Hmm, interesting. Also, glad to be of service!

Yeah, they're not an easy one to summarise.
Effectively, in response to your actual question:
They're good and can be very effective, but generally TWC are better.

Also not a SW player but what are the more competitive Grey Hunter loadouts and how do you know when to include the Wolf Guard in your squad?

I rarely see wolf scouts used anymore, but they seem great. They can come in from anywhere with their special ability 2/3 times. They seem like a great way to deal with your opponent's heavy support slots that are usually hiding in their back field. Is there any particular reason why they don't seem to see as much use as they could?

minigun762 wrote:Also not a SW player but what are the more competitive Grey Hunter loadouts and how do you know when to include the Wolf Guard in your squad?

Good question my man, will be very useful to many also. My opinion is as follows:

The two main competitive Grey Hunter load-outs involve the use of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Drop Pods, Land Raiders and Foot-slog are all semi-competitive.
As for the Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, generally they should be added to squads that need the extra punch (eg. Blood-claws, Long Fangs) or that can afford the extra room (eg. Razorbacks). However it's worth noting that Wolf Guard joining a troop choice become a scoring model itself, even if the rest of the squad is destroyed. Therefore allowing scoring terminators.

Either way, Grey Hunters should be the bread and butter of most Space Wolf armies: they're definitely the best Space Wolf troop choice and are often rated as the best in 40K all-together. Similarly, one of the real advantages of Grey Hunters lies in their flexibility and capability at short-range. I am strongly of the belief that Grey Hunters should NOT be used as an assault unit, but as a close-quarters (not combat) unit. This means, that instead of rushing forwards with Wolf Guard in tow and charging into the enemy, a pack of Wolf Guard should advance on the enemy, rapid fire into them and receive the charge from the remnants of the enemy. I don't see them as an assault unit, but instead a counter-assault unit. I'd be willing to explain this in more detail later, even so I shall move back onto topic and suggest typical builds:

Rhino Based
10x Grey Hunter, 2x Special Weapon (2x Melta, 2x Plasma, 2xFlamer), Counter-assault bonus(s) (MotW, Wolf Standard), Rhino.

- 10 Space Marines (Grey Hunters specifically) is a tough and dangerous unit. Having the bodies and strength of arms to face almost any enemy and win in attrition at-least.
- The 2 Special Weapons give them extra fire-power and flexibility for relatively little cost. With 2 meltas, a Grey Hunter squad can be relied upon to take out tanks (2 meltaguns) and infantry (8 boltguns) alike. It's worth noting that special weapons should generally always be taken in pairs of the same gun (eg. 2x Melta, not 1x melta, 1x flamer) in order to maximise effectiveness.
- The MotW and/or Standard provide some extra punch/bonus for when (not if) the Grey Hunters reach close combat. MotW is almost always the better of the two, but they work particularly well when taken together. With a base of 3 attacks (2x CCW, counter-charge, 1 base) each the Grey Hunters can generally take care of themselves anyway, but with a MotW and/or Standard then they can really dominate in close combat and range. Note that Power Fists and Power Weapons aren't too effective as they power fist will amass too few attacks (2) for too many points and the power sword is too limited in use, particularly compared to MotW.
- Rhino's are best kept cheap (not extra armour, HK's) and cheerful and in the mechanised environment of 5th ed they are very useful, ensuring your unit reaches its destination.

My preferred Grey Hunter load-out is:
- 10x Grey Hunter, 2x melta, MotW, Rhino - 205pts.

Razorback Set-up
Unlike the above squad who will need to close with the enemy, you want to keep this squad at arms reach. Due to the Razorback, their main role is to sit at the back in your deployment and shoot the enemy from a distance (akin to Long Fangs). During the first turns they will sit back and shoot, during the later turns they will be quickly transported to take objectives and/or finish off the enemy. The squad itself isn't particularly strong, but it's good for it's intentions which is stealing objectives (MSU's) and mopping up enemy units.
Unlike the above squad, this Razorback's squad strength lies in it's Razorback, rather than itself. The Razorback will provide the much needed heavy weapons and transport the unit at the end. Don't expect miracles from a 5-man unit, but this set-up is very effective in groups as this multiplies the fire-power, improves ability to capture objectives and compensates for the individual units weaknesses and small numbers.

Generally I'd advise having the following as a Razorback unit:
5x Grey Hunter, 1x Special Weapon, 1x Counter-Attack Equipment (MotW/Standard), Razorback.

- The 5-man unit is weak on its own, but very effective in multiples. With 5-men then it's also great for escorting characters such as Rune Priests whose LL ability compliments the firepower of the Razorback. MSU's are best for capturing objectives and working in unison.
- The Special Weapon/ counter-attack wargear adds some extra punch to an other-wise weak unit. As each squad can only take 1 special weapon, flamers are generally best. However both plasma's and melta's could be taken if needed.
- The Razorback is the key part of this squad (outlined above). Generally IMHO the Twin-Linked Lascannon or Assault Cannon's are the best choices, providing some devastating fire-power. Take which-ever compliments the rest of your army. Eg. Lascannon = Long Fangs/ Long Range. Assault Cannon = Vindicators/ Short Range. Heavy Bolters and Las/Plas are also good options, particularly the cheap bolters. Avoid the over-costed Heavy Flamers though.
- A Wolf Guard Pack Leader could also be added to Razorback squads: his combi-weapon compensating for the loss of the (free) special weapon and his close combat ability really strengthening the unit. This is one of the best places to use pack-leaders as the can really bolster the line and their leadership and abilities really benefits the small squad.
My preferred build:
5x Grey Hunter, Flamer, MotW, TL-LC Razorback - 165pts


Other builds:
- Drop Pod, 2x Special Weapon, MotW and/or Standard, 10x Grey Hunters.
Give them meltas and both close-combat bonuses and they go from being a suicide unit to a quite significant threat to the enemy. The Drop Pod will drop them straight on the enemies door-step (Grey Hunters happy place), ensures the Melta's are all ready close to the enemy and due to the nature of drop-pods, the Motw and Standard will help due to the proximity of the enemy and therefore increased likelihood of CC.
Also, this is a good place to put a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. Give him terminator armour and you have a tough, leader-ship boosting warrior who benefits the ability to steal objectives and stay in the fight. The combi-weapon helps compensate for the loss of a special weapon (occasionally the likes of an assault cannon could be taken!) and like the MotW/Standard, the Pack-Leader's close combat ability is a bonus due to proximity of the enemy.
Preferred Build:
8x Grey Hunter, MotW, Meltagun, Drop Pod. Pack Leader w/ combi-melta, powerfist and terminator armour - 218pts

- 10x Grey Hunter, 2x Special Weapon (not flamer here), Standard.
As ever in 5th edition, the foot-slog build is less competitive but here is how I'd recommend creating it anyway.
The Numbers are ever-handy and being foot-slog they'll need the extra bodies to withstand enemy fire-power.
The special weapons should ideally be plasmaguns due to their range, hence the lack of flamers which may not even get used with the foot-slog's lack of mobility.
The standard is a cheap boost to close combat, close combat which they are less-likely to reach due to their lack of mobility. Hence the cheaper Standard.
Here you should try to have Pack Leaders in Terminator Armour also. They don't restrict transports (foot-slog), provide extra toughness and punch at range and in close combat.

So yes, for Grey Hunters I'd strongly recommend using Rhinos or Razorbacks (although the Razorback build is common these days), however I've tried to provide advice for all options.
Pack Leaders are good in theory, but can limit transport options and space, limiting the free-special weapon. I never recommend them for rhino Grey Hunters but they are good additions to the other variants. Note that a Wolf Guard with powerfist is 2pts less than a Grey Hunter with power-fist, but will have an extra attack and leadership point.


Hope that helps.

Would it be better to take Wolf scouts in a big squad of 10 or 2 small squads of 5?

Its hard for me to add to the Grey Hunters post.
If you want to Steal from me go ahead.

I generally run 3 MM/HF speeders with 3 squads of ML Long fangs but am in desperate need of more melta against AV14/13 spam.

Is drop podding Logan with MM long fangs a good tactic or is this just a waste of points?

Should I just drop a MM Dread instead, if at all?

Thanks for the support guys, I'm glad I can be of help.

Anpu42 wrote:Its hard for me to add to the Grey Hunters post.
If you want to Steal from me go ahead.

Thanks man, I worry that I may have written a bit too much for the Grey Hunter bit (may make a simpler comment soon)...

Deuce11 wrote:I generally run 3 MM/HF speeders with 3 squads of ML Long fangs but am in desperate need of more melta against AV14/13 spam.

Is drop podding Logan with MM long fangs a good tactic or is this just a waste of points?

Should I just drop a MM Dread instead, if at all?

I'll address this question before the scouts as it's easier to answer and is more 'direct'...

Yeah, you have noticed what is pretty much the only short-coming of Launcher Fangs - a need for melta. You may find that if there isn't too many targets then your Missiles may roll enough 6's to deal with AV13/14, but yeah, Melta's always a better option in such cases.

The Relentless/Multi-Melta/Drop-Pod fangs were an interesting and effective idea when the codex was first released, however in doing this you're dropping your fire-power based unit onto the enemies head; you want your Long Fangs as far away from the enemy as possible in most cases...
A similar but better option is to upgrade one squad of fangs to carry lascannons and then use Logan to give them Tank Hunters. This way your get 5 str10 shots at 48" range, a better tank-hunting option that keeps them safe and can even take out monoliths with relative ease. However, as you noted, this is still very expensive.

A MM dread isn't a bad idea and it will at the very least slow-down the enemy, although I must admit to having a personal preference for dreadnoughts
The problem with the dreadnought is that it's effectively a 160pts suicide unit, it'll drop in and cause a fair bit of havoc and hopefully take out a Land Raider or Russ, but it's still likely to be destroyed in the short-term, so you need to ask yourself if it's worth it.
If you get a dreadnought with a multi-melta and deathwind drop-pod then you effectively create 2 AV12 targets that your enemy needs to deal with as soon as possible. With some luck the dreadnought will destroy a high-value target and slow-down much of the enemy force as they work to destroy it, so yes a dreadnought might be worth it. It's likely to be destroyed and it shouldn't be relied on to destroy its target, but it will be a helluva distraction and slow-down the enemy advance (making the Long Fangs happy) and along-side the drop-pod (if Deathwind) create 2 AV12 targets that need destroying. Similarly, many armies simply aren't ready for such a unit to drop into their lines.

You may also like to consider:
- Combi-Melta Wolf Guard - put in a rhino/razorback/pod and you have a weaker Sternguard replacement.
- More Land Speeders (squadrons of 2). You have the experience with them so you will know if it's worth it or not.
- Chain-Fist Lone Wolves. A Lone Wolf with TDA/CF/SS is 85pts and a real pain to AV13/14, creating a unit that the enemy must either avoid or destroy but only costs 85pts. However this is more of a speed-bump/tank-trap than a tank-hunter as the mobility really hinders a Lone Wolf.
- Grey Hunters. Laserback and Meltagun gives you some extra ranged fire-power, troop choice and meltagun if the enemy gets close enough.
- 10 Grey Hunters with 2 Meltaguns in a rhino can take out armour and infantry alike, albeit at 200pts+.

Those are the most of your options, I'd definitely consider the drop-pod Dreadnought but it's not a perfect solution.
Hope that helps!

Awesome! I love the tank hunting Las Fang idea. That never even occurred to me. I think I can shuffle points around a bit to make room.

Great response. I seriously appreciate the thoughtful reply.

Nice thread !
I have to ask about terminators though, since they're usually my favorite units, regardless of chapter.
What kind of niche do they fill in the SW army ? The Wolf Guard entry is pretty flexible, so there are many possible compositions, for many roles.
Is a shooty squad viable, or should WG terminators focus on CC ?

Cheers Hudson, nice Aliens reference(s), I'll answer your question once I've helped with the Scouts...

Got a queue all ready!

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I rarely see wolf scouts used anymore, but they seem great. They can come in from anywhere with their special ability 2/3 times. They seem like a great way to deal with your opponent's heavy support slots that are usually hiding in their back field. Is there any particular reason why they don't seem to see as much use as they could?

purplefood wrote:Would it be better to take Wolf scouts in a big squad of 10 or 2 small squads of 5?

Thanks for the questions. Scouts are still good, but these days they are less unique and suffer from a more competitive FOC. They are still a good unit however and definitely still have their uses. Whilst not as durable, powerful or unsubtle as some other units, Wolf Scouts are still better than their Codex-Scout cousins and are a great unit to intimidate and distract. They're unlikely to win the game for you, but when used correctly they can really put your opponent on the back foot and attack those troublesome units who remain just out of reach of your main force.

Wolf Scouts have always been a great unit for hunting enemy tanks, particularly those who like to sit back and shoot from afar (Manticores, Predators etc.). With the more heavily mechanised environment of 5th edition, they have even more targets to choose from, making for some happy scouts. As-well as hunting these sorts of tanks, Wolf Scouts should also be used to target the likes of Lootas and Pathfinders, who'll likely stay just out of reach of your army but still cause you lots of problems. The likes of lootas and manticores can often be left isolated as the rest of the enemy advances, as such they can be perfect targets.
Similarly, Scouts also benefit from the focus on objectives within 5th Edition. Although unable to claim an objective, Wolf Scouts are very effective for contesting them last-minute or shifting any small enemy squads (I'm looking at you Jet-bikes) off an objective.

Whilst having the strengths and intended use described above, Wolf Scouts are - above all - a great distraction. Keep them relatively cheap but still deadly and your opponent will have to make the tricky decision on whether to destroy this small, seemingly insignificant unit or to leave them to wreak havoc amongst his lines. As such I'd advise using small 5-6 man squads of scouts, rather than the full-sized 10-man squad. This maximises them as a neglected distraction, still cheap but also very capable of causing havoc. If you have 2 squads of scouts appear behind the enemy then he has to face the difficult decision on whether to ignore or target them. If you have a large, more expensive, squad appear behind the enemy then this decision is already made for him.

Combine cheap but none-the-less deadly units such as Scouts and Landspeeders with more valuable units such as Rhinos, Vindicators and HQ's and your opponent is faced with a lot of targets, a lot of threats and a lot of thinking to make. If you can make your opponent panic then you have the upper-hand and then some.
As such, the way you use Wolf Scouts is very important. If coordinated to threaten the enemy just as your main force draws into optimum range, then your opponent is facing even more threats at even closer range. Similarly, Wolf Scouts are best used to threaten and force the enemy into traps and pincer movements, placing your scouts behind the enemy and your more intimidating units in front.
Also, whereas a small unit of Grey Hunters may struggle to remove an enemy of an objective, your small unit of scouts appearing behind them can really change the situation to your advantage.
Scouts can also be used to help threatened Long-Fangs, Drop-Pod Dreadnoughts who may find themselves a bit isolated and many other circumstances more than those which I have described.

Other than their use (see above), one of the more important things about Wolf Scouts is too keep them cheap. As I have mentioned above, Wolf Scouts are a great cheap but threatening distraction. As a distraction you need your opponent to think twice about needing to target them and if he does then it's not a significant loss to yourself. This means that small squads of 5-6 scouts is usually best, keeping you free of responsibility and your opponent full of questions.

However, Wolf Scouts are still relatively weak, both in strength and toughess. They are by no means a poor unit that can't harm the enemy, they just aren't as good as a normal Space Marine. They are however better than a normal (Codex) scout and many other enemies.
Wolf Scouts do however have relatively few viable builds, being focussed on hunting enemy tanks and staying cheap, choices such as Power Weapons and Sniper Rifles are less powerful (snipers also contradict the Outflank rule). With Wolf Scouts you should almost always have a meltagun: a deadly, but still cheap weapon that can really make your opponent sweat. On top of the meltagun you'll likely want some kind of back-up should it miss or fail, further increasing the threat the Wolf Scouts pose. For example a Plasma Pistol can really do some damage against both rear-armour and MC's and Meltabombs are tasty too.
You MAY want to also give your scouts some extra close-combat or anti-infantry punch such as a Heavy Bolter or MotW.
Wolf Guard may also be added to scouts to provide some relatively cheap but extra-punch such as another Plasma Pistol or Combi Weapon as well as close-combat defence. However, this does increase the cost of the scouts and make them more note-worthy for your opponents guns.
Note: Try to equip your scouts with a Bolt Pistol/CCW rather than a Bolter as they may be unable to defeat the enemy at range or close combat but they can at the very least tie them up. Also, generally the kind of units open to being attacked by scouts (such as Path-finders, Snipers and Devastators) are often weaker in Close Combat anyway.

My preferred build for Wolf Scouts is: 5x Wolf Scout - Meltagun, Plasma Pistol - 100pts
This is a small, very cheap unit that can work wonders, forcing your opponent into difficult decisions and threaten enemy vehicles and support squads alike. At 100pts it doesn't matter if they're destroyed or late but they are a tasty addition and threatening little blighters.
Add a Wolf Guard with Combi-melta and power-weapon for extra good-times at only 133pts.


So yes, Wolf Scouts are good if still fragile. Their ability is less amazing with the amount of out-flanking in 5th Edition, but in small, cheap but still threatening squads they are a great addition when used properly and are a great 'noose' unit for trapping the enemy and his armoured support.

Thanks.
I have been using them as assassins for IG command squads and anyone dumb enough to leave their tanks unguarded.

Pleasure.

That's exactly the right use my man. If you time that alongside something such as vindicators coming into range then it's all good. For you. Not him.

HudsonD wrote:Nice thread !
I have to ask about terminators though, since they're usually my favorite units, regardless of chapter.
What kind of niche do they fill in the SW army ? The Wolf Guard entry is pretty flexible, so there are many possible compositions, for many roles.
Is a shooty squad viable, or should WG terminators focus on CC ?

In addition to answering the above question about WG Termies, could you shed light on other WG units that pack a punch without TDA? From what I can tell 15 points for 2+5++, Storm B. & power weapon is a great deal and I am having trouble thinking of reasons why anyone would field a full unit of power armor WG.

Deuce11 wrote:

HudsonD wrote:Nice thread !
I have to ask about terminators though, since they're usually my favorite units, regardless of chapter.
What kind of niche do they fill in the SW army ? The Wolf Guard entry is pretty flexible, so there are many possible compositions, for many roles.
Is a shooty squad viable, or should WG terminators focus on CC ?

In addition to answering the above question about WG Termies, could you shed light on other WG units that pack a punch without TDA? From what I can tell 15 points for 2+5++, Storm B. & power weapon is a great deal and I am having trouble thinking of reasons why anyone would field a full unit of power armor WG.

Right Wolf Guard Terminators...

Firstly, yes the Terminator Armour is a very good value purchase (and the models look great), if the power weapon costs 10pts then you're getting terminator armour and a storm bolter for 5pts. 5 POINTS!

Wolf Guard (Terminators) can be used for pretty much any role, close combat, shooty, suicide unit, troop choice... you name it.
It's whether you specialise in shooty or close combat, or make them flexible that is the tricky decision.

In a general Space Wolf army, Wolf Guard are you hammer/elite unit, they take on the best of the best and come out on top. If you're attacking then they lead the charge and head to the heart of the enemy. If you are on the defensive then they anchor your defence and act as an immovable object. Much like the old Codex, they are GREAT escorts for characters and made all the more deadly by a Wolf Priest.
Ultimately they are not cheap, but you get what you pay for.

Like any Terminators, these guys are your shock and awe unit, they have some of the best training and equipment the Imperium has to offer and are therefore capable of pretty much anything. As I said however, you have to pay for these bonuses.

In terms of wargear, Wolf Guard have it all and most of it is worth having. I'll say a couple of points about what to avoid and notes of unit builds but there is no point describing every weapon.
The Bad: Unless led by Ragnar (Furious Charge), Frost Blades aren't worth it. They cost as much as a power-fist but add only 1str. It's not so much that they're bad, they're over costed and Powerfists and Wolf Claws are better options. Meltabombs generally aren't worth it due to the amount of other anti-tank Wolf Guard can provide. Storm Shields - although very good - you shouldn't feel obliged to take, particularly not in quantity. They are simply too expensive. Take a few, but don't equip your Wolf Guard as if they were Assault Terminators. For A Wolf Guard with TH/SS is 20pts more than his codex counterpart.

Pack A Punch: Assuming your general squad size is 5-men, I'd advise always making sure you have a couple of powerfists or similar. This will ensure that your Wolf Guard really can take on anything, including Monstrous Creatures, Dreadnoughts, Tanks and HQ's. The additional advantage of this is that the rest of the squad will strike at normal initiative with the likes of power-weapons meaning the enemy strength has all ready been dwindled by the time that the powerfists strike. Here you get the best of both worlds, so yes, try to take atleast 2 powerfists or similar.

Not Your Ordinary Terminator: I'd advise against equipping your terminators like those in the other codices. Wolf Guard can have all of their qualities with none of their down-sides. Sometimes... As I've said, it's too expensive to try and equip them like a squad of assault terminators and you don't gain much from giving them all power-fists like a normal terminator squad. A Wolf Guard Terminator with Power Weapon/Storm Shield is still 48pts but has the defence of a storm shield and the initiative of a power weapon. The Space Wolves can have the flexibility that other codices lack, we do however have to pay for it...

As I've said, Wolf Guard Terminators can do pretty much anything, so I'll go over my recommended builds for (5-man) shooty, close combat and flexible:
(apologies for any miscalculations, is off the top of my rather empty head)

Shooty
Wolf Guard - TDA - Combi-Plasma, Power Weapon
Wolf Guard - TDA - Combi-Plasma, Power Weapon
Wolf Guard - TDA - Combi-Plasma, Power Fist
Wolf Guard - TDA - Combi-Plasma, Power Weapon
Wolf Guard - TDA - Assault Cannon, Power Weapon
Drop Pod.
260pts

I have to admit, I don't believe the shooty build is quite as natural to WG as the Close Combat or Flexible variants, it is still a powerful and deadly build none-the-less.
The Drop Pod gives the Termies a rapid and reliable arrival to where ever they are needed, making the most out of their weaponry. This is flexibility not provided by foot-slogging or a Land Raider. Land Raiders also impede their shooting capability through a lack of fire-points.
Due to their standard equipment, this squad is still durable and still capable of looking after themselves (and then some) in assault too, range is of course where their strength lies however.
With 4- combi-plasma's for only 5pts each, this is a relatively cheap but very dangerous addition to the squad. The combi-plasma's can really create hell for their selected target, ripping open a vehicles rear armour, over-coming a monstrous creatures toughness and obliterating any infantry. Although only one-use, these guns are devastating, flexible and capable of rapid fire. Happy Days.
Finally, the Assault Cannon is a rightly feared weapon which simply adds to the fire-power and flexibility, similarly excelling against any target.
These guys can and will kill pretty much anything: enemy vehicles, expensive creatures or characters, troops on objectives and veteran units alike. They are anti-terminator terminators.

Close Combat
Wolf Guard - TDA - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
Wolf Guard - TDA - Wolf Claw, Storm Shield
Wolf Guard - TDA - Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
Wolf Guard - TDA - Chain Fist, Storm Shield
Wolf Guard - TDA - Wolf Claw, Wolf Claw
265pts

These guys would probably be best in a redeemer led by a Wolf Priest. This allows them to re-roll any misses and get into assault rather safely and with support. Let the good times (and heads) roll.
With the wide variety of war-gear for wound allocation shenanigans, terminator armour and three storm shields, these guys can take the pain as much as they dish it out. And they dish out a lot of pain.
The Wolf Claws are flexible and deadly for little extra cost, the Thunder Hammer and Chain Fist are more than capable of ripping open any enemy armour and the Storm Shields only benefits them in close combat.
The real draw-back of this unit is their cost, but they are more than capable of taking on any enemy there is and then some, particularly when led by a Wolf Priest. If you were to see this unit lose in close combat I'd be surprised.

Flexible
Wolf Guard - TDA - Storm Bolter, Chain Fist
Wolf Guard - TDA - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
Wolf Guard - TDA - Storm Bolter, Wolf Claw
Wolf Guard - TDA - Storm Bolter, Power Fist
Wolf Guard - TDA - Assault Cannon, Power Weapon
Drop Pod
260pts

This is one of my personal favourite set-ups simply due to its simplicity and flexibility. They have a substantial amount of firepower, are tough as well... Terminators, dangerous in assault, arrive via drop-pod and aren't that expensive.
These guys are more than just the jack of all trades, they're more of a queen or king. Either way, they kick ass.
The assault cannon, chain fist and power fist all help against the bigger targets, the ranged weapons can rip apart infantry and in assault they are similarly deadly and will often defeat the best of the enemy.
No matter the target or time, this is a great and flexible unit to use. Add combi-weapons and storm shields for extra funsies too.

---------------

However, Wolf Guard without Terminator Armour are also very good, still benefiting from the substantial wargear (for cheap) but also having strength through numbers and more transport options. The same rules and builds apply for PA Wolf Guard, ensure you have high-strength weapons, combi-weapons add extra power and flexibility and load-up on Storm Shields and Wolf Claws for close combat.
These guys can fulfil a Stern-guard type of role, their combi-weapons adding flexibility and fire-power whilst their own close combat prowess and wargear making them deadly in assault.
Where these guys excel above their Terminator brethren is in their numbers and number of attacks, ranged or close combat. They could pack 10 combi weapons and can amass even more attacks in assault due to benefiting from 2 close combat weapons and more bodies. I'd argue in assault PA Wolf Guard are better than TDA Wolf Guard and Storm Shields can always add some extra durability.
Furthermore, there are many more options with transportation, with Rhinos and Razorbacks both being suitable and cheap options too. Give them a Lascannon Razorback and they can act as a counter-attack in a gunline army.

However, PA Wolf Guard are more expensive and generally don't stand up to fire-power as-well. That's not to say they're poor however, they are anything but, they just have flaws as-well. They are still at-least as good as Terminator Armoured Wolf Guard though and even better in assault IMHO.

I do however believe a mix of TDA and PA to be the best use though, it combines the natural strengths of both kinds, allowing toughness, fire-power, close-combat ability, flexibility and even strength of numbers. The loss of a couple of suits of terminators is countered by the extra bodies and therefore extra attacks and weaponry. Furthermore, they can also carry Terminator Heavy Weapons and make use of the cheap plasma-pistols and MotW.
I believe that 3x Terminator, 4x Power Armour to be a very good blend, allowing all of the above.
The only flaw? Transportation and cost.
Once again though, despite its rarity, I truly believe a mix of TDA and PA to be the best use of Wolf Guard. Allowing the best of both worlds.

Also remeber somthing about TDA, it makes you Relentless to those Combi-Weapons are 12" "Storm Bolters" and you can still move and fire out to 24".
The only one that it is not worth puting a Combi-Weapon on is wone armed woth a Cyclone.
I have Two Favorite Cyclone Builds.
1] Storm Bolter, Power Weapon, Cyclone. It cheep [Relativly] and give you a lot of Fire Power.
2] Power Weapon, Storm Shield, Cyclone. This is a good one for a Pod Drop as you will still get to fire turn one and give you some Good Defence

As for the Assualt Cannon I have start to play with this one,
-Assualt Cannon, Storm Shield, MotW, this one give you 4 rending Shots and then 1d6+1 Redning Attacks in Close Combat. This is a Gimic build, but a fun one.

In my opinion Cyclones only belong in Long Fang squads or foot-slogging. The Assault Cannon costs as much as the Cyclone because whilst it has a shorter range, it has a devastating amount of fire-power.
I do admit that through a drop-pod the CML will be able to engage rear armour, but then again, so can the assault cannon...

great thread here - thanks Dave & Anpu for all the info & ideas!

I'm wondering, though, there's not been any talk of lone wolves? I'm not running any in my list right now, but I've always thought they could be viable...
I guess my question would be, what's some of the pros & cons of lone wolves [I see a 20-point model with feel no pain and eternal warrior, so what am i missing]? what about wargear, is a chainfist preferable to a thunder hammer? fenrisian wolves, yea or nay? assuming one was running Logan, what's stopping them from bringing 3 of these guys? I imagine they could be kinda tricky in kill point missions, assuming your opponent is able to let them live without making back their points?

anyhow, I'd love feedback from anyone, & thanks in advance...

I run one or two equiped the same way:
-Storm Shield, MotW and if I have the points I add wolves.

The Pros:
-I have 1d6+1 [1d6+2 on the 1st Turn of the Assualt] Rending Attacks. On a good rolls I can break a Unit in One Turn.
-If I break the Unit I can destroy it in a Sweeping Advance.
-The Storm Shield makes things easy, I take a wound and role a 3+ and Save.

The Bad
-Vs Toughtness 6 or higher I have to rend to Wound
-vs Good Armor I need to Rend to Penatrate.

Excellent thread! I'll bite and throw a question in:

Is there any major advantage running a Canis + TWC/Fenrisian Wolves list? Or is it more of a gimmick-y army for casual games between friends?

L. Wrex

Thanks for the write-up ! Definitely some food for thoughts, there...
What do you think of cyclone missiles though ? What about a 10 strong squad with 2 heavy weapons (Cyclone/ACs) ?

Cyclones are good, however they really belong in a Long Fang squad IMHO.
If you add him to a Long Fang squad then they effectively gain 2 extra missiles, another (2) body(s) and some close-combat defence.
A ten-man squad will be both very expensive and due to a lack of transportation, lacking in effectiveness and manoeuvrability.
Split that ten-man squad into 2 5-man squads and you're onto something, same number of guys, twice as many targets.

Still though, Cyclones are good, no doubt about that and from a drop pod they can mess up rear-armour. However, I personally prefer assault cannons which I also feel suit the Space Wolves play-style and range better...

Hope that helps man, Dave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

radical bob wrote:great thread here - thanks Dave & Anpu for all the info & ideas!

I'm wondering, though, there's not been any talk of lone wolves? I'm not running any in my list right now, but I've always thought they could be viable...
I guess my question would be, what's some of the pros & cons of lone wolves [I see a 20-point model with feel no pain and eternal warrior, so what am i missing]? what about wargear, is a chainfist preferable to a thunder hammer? fenrisian wolves, yea or nay? assuming one was running Logan, what's stopping them from bringing 3 of these guys? I imagine they could be kinda tricky in kill point missions, assuming your opponent is able to let them live without making back their points?

anyhow, I'd love feedback from anyone, & thanks in advance...

Lone Wolves are much better on paper than they are in-game, doesn't mean to say they are a bad unit, they're just not a particularly good one.

What they effectively are are cheaper and Battle Wolf Guard Battle Leaders, but that can't join units or have access to as much weaponry and frankly Battle Leaders aren't that good anyway.

The biggest flaw with Lone Wolves is a lack of manoeuvrability, they either steal a transport of have to foot-slog it about. Similarly, as a one-man unit they're actually that good. FNP and Eternal Warrior is good, but when facing a mob of boys it's not going to make too much difference. Their final flaw worth mentioning is that they are located in a pretty competitive elites slot. I admit, Elites is where they belong, but Wolf Guard, Dreadnoughts and Scouts are often a preferred choice and rightly so.
Lone Wolves are however still good in assault and are great for hunting characters, as in very good for hunting characters. Similarly they are cheap and great little nuisances, forcing your opponent to decide whether it's worth directing his fire at him or to focus on bigger, more expensive units. Alongside Scouts and Land-speeders, Lone Wolves can make a great distraction and at the very least a good speed-bump/obstacle. However, I believe Scouts and Land-speeders to be better...

Anyway, I'll go over the pro's and cons and a couple of advised builds:
Pros
- Cheap
- Great Special Rules
- V. Annoying in Kill Point games.
- Deadly in assault, particularly against Characters and creatures.
- Great distractions and not easy to kill.
- Wide range of wargear.

Cons
- Almost always foot-slogging = very slow and easy to avoid.
- Easily out-numbered and/or overwhelmed by some enemy squads
- In a competitive elites slot. Wolf Guard, Scouts, Dreadnoughts = better choice?

Some Recommended Builds:
The Tank Trap: Terminator Armour, Chain Fist, Storm Shield - 85pts
Great for messing with the enemy armour. He's very tough, still cheap and can make a real mess of a tank. They are forced to avoid or destroy him. You won't see Land Raiders coming anywhere near this guy. The only real problem is that he can't actually catch up with the tanks themselves. Hence he's more of a tank trap (obstacle) than a tank-hunter.

Wolfy McInfantry Burger: MotW, 2x Fenrisian Wolves - 55pts
Very cheap and very good for ripping apart enemy infantry. At 55pts this guy will likely be ignored but if he gets into combat with any run of the mill infantry from any army, then they have a problem. Whilst being a good choice against units (unlike your average Lone Wolf) he can still give characters and elite units a headache.
However, he can't really stand up to armour or Monstrous Creatures.

Mini-Arjac: TDA, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield - 85pts
Much like Arjac, this set-up excels against enemy characters and creatures. With a Thunder Hammer he has the strength to Instant Death many characters and the Storm Shield, Eternal Warrior and FNP should ensure he gets to strike, against whom he may be re-rolling hits and wounds.
Although he can also threaten tanks, he is still fairly expensive and struggles against infantry.

The all-rounder: Plasma Pistol, Power Weapon - 50pts
Exactly as it says on the tin, this guy is good is good against pretty much everything. Thanks to beast-slayer he shouldn't suffer from gets-hot and the power-weapon can cause problems for most targets. He is also VERY cheap.
However, he isn't particularly good at anything in particular.


As I said, Lone Wolves are quite good, but they are flawed and out-classed by other Elites choices. By all means use one, just don't expect the world or for him to do better than his counter-parts...

Hope that helps.

One of the other things I have started to is when fielding my Loganwing is to put a Pair of Heavy Flamers with Logan in a Crusader [bleeding off the other Wolf Guard to other units] or just one if I am plaing on Podding him.
Most of thime when I am playing him I spend 80% in Close Combat so only spending a few points on a Heavy Weapon.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Excellent thread! I'll bite and throw a question in:

Is there any major advantage running a Canis + TWC/Fenrisian Wolves list? Or is it more of a gimmick-y army for casual games between friends?

L. Wrex

Thanks Wrex, appreciate the kind words.

The Canis/Wolf list can work and work quite well.

At a glance Canis' special rule of allowing Fen. Wolves as troops seems pointless. After-all what is the point of having non-scoring troops?
However, this can ultimately allow you to field multiple squads of Thunderwolf Cavalry and multiple Fen. Wolf screens for them. The Fenrisian Wolves will not take up a restricting amount of space on the FOC, so you can still have a good amount of scoring troops on top of this.
The only significant problem with this tactic is the cost; Thunderwolves and a 10-men wolf screen are 345pts (for my preferred set-up) each. As such, this is probably a better method for around 2000pts where it's less of a squeeze but your opponent will still struggle against multiple, screened TWC units. This list will limit the amount of fire-power you can produce, but according to my calculations you can still get:
- Two 4-man Thunderwolf Squads (TH+SS+Meltabomb), Two 10-man (man?) Wolf Squads as screens, Canis and 4 Laserback Grey Hunters for 1500pts. So whilst it's not without its flaws, it also has its strengths.

I'd say it's a lot less gimmicky than it seems. Just bear in mind a couple of points for this:
- The focus here is being able to field more TWC, not more Fenrisian Wolves. The Wolves are the screen, the Thunderwolves are the payload.
- It's quite points restrictive, so I'd say the idea points to aim this at is around 2000pts where it's less of a squeeze for you but still a struggle for your opponent.
- Such a list will be lacking two things: Fire-power and anti-armour.

As I said though, it has its potentials and it's definitely better than you might expect. It will be semi-competitive (or more?) and still themed, so it's not actually that much of a gimmick I guess. Should work with friends or in a semi-competitive environment.
I've tried not to create an army list for you however, but I am always willing to help with such.

Hope that helps mate!

You previously referred to having a favorite set up for Thunderwolf Cavalry. I currently run 2 squads. My load out is as follows:
bolt pistol / chainsword
storm shield / chainsword
bolt pistol / thunder hammer
boltpistol / chainsword / melta bombs
bolter / chainsword
This totals to 315 points and is primarily designed for wound allocation. I also run 2 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves:
runic armor
wolf tail talisman
wolftooth necklace
saga of majesty / saga of the bear
frost axe / thunder hammer
bolt pistol / storm shield
belt of russ / -
I've had a lot of luck with this unit build but do you have any suggestions?