Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, all the reasons are genetic but they're seemingly absurdly recessed traits where you really need to have a ridiculously diverse genepool for those traits to actually survive.

Kanluwen: That depends on the reader then, as I've known MANY readers of the various Marine codices really emphasize the gene-seed failing in past discussions.

And it is a fact that it definitely can fail, and it's not that uncommon. That ontop of this they have to do genetic testing to see if any of the surviving candidates actually might possibly accept it, says that it's quite picky.


Actually it's in inbreeding that recessive traits come out the most frequently.

Melissa posited that if one donor's genetic make-up accepted the geneseed then so would his clone's. In other words, genetic diversity is necessary to produce the first subject but not any of the subsequent ones. Why would genetic diversity be of ongoing benefit to Marines (regarding compatibility with geneseed)?

Melissia wrote:Kanluwen: That depends on the reader then, as I've known MANY readers of the various Marine codices really emphasize the gene-seed failing in past discussions.

And it is a fact that it definitely can fail, and it's not that uncommon. That ontop of this they have to do genetic testing to see if any of the surviving candidates actually might possibly accept it, says that it's quite picky.

It's not so much that the geneseed fails, but something else during the process goes wrong. For example, some of them can't accept the Black Carapace, or during the process of the geneseed's maturation they don't properly "grow" the extra organs.

It doesn't stop them from being able to mature the geneseed, which is why those surviving candidates are kept alive. As human incubators for the Chapter's future.

Actually it's in inbreeding that recessive traits come out the most frequently.

Yeah, sure let's start breeding for blue eyes and blonde hair, along with muscle and body mass. Maybe some superhuman agility too, for flavor.

Oh wait, they tried that and it ended up with a large amount of mentally slowed, physically deformed, and sterile individuals.

Kanluwen wrote:Oh wait, they tried that and it ended up with a large amount of mentally slowed, physically deformed, and sterile individuals.

Yes. Which are... recessive genes, too!

More evidence is in dog breeds as well. The same thing that might cause a Dalmation breed also tends to cause blindness at some point in their life.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of genetics with you other than to say:
You're wrong.

Melissia:

No, genetic variation is entirely possible, and a rather important part of the background. Part of the background is the requirement that Chapters tithe part of their geneseed to Mars so that it can be monitored for purity. The process of maintaining that geneseed can lead to impurity, meaning that some Chapters have lost parts of the geneseed, such as the Imperial Fists losing the sus-an membrane, and the betcher's gland, and others have developed mutations in specific strains of geneseed, such as the Black Dragons where only some of the Chapter develop bony over-growth in the radius and ulna thanks to a mutated ossmodula.

Then there's also the limits and rates of geneseed infiltration into subjects, with the Luna Wolves being an interesting example in that there was a group of Astartes in the legion called the "Sons of Horus" because of their strong resemblanc to Horus Lupercal. Even if their geneseed was identical, their reaction to it was not if some grew to resemble Horus and others did not.

Similarly in Legion the Alpha Legion all seem to have a strong resemblance to each other, to the point that only very subtle differences in physiognomy could allow an observer to distinguish them as individuals. The Alpha Legion could, assuming this was a legion-wide trait, be taken as a legion whose geneseed routinely overpowered individual traits, whereas the Luna Wolves could be said to have had more variation in geneseed. Indeed, there's a comment to that effect in Legion where the Alpha Legion is supposedly the last legion to endure the influence of the Chaos Gods, and that the others have managed to corrupt themselves by over-burdening geneseed reproduction practices in order to maintain the ranks in the fact of casualties sustained in the Great Crusade.

The geneseed of the Blood Angels is perhaps the greatest example of mutation and over-writing the recipient's own genes, given that it remakes a scabby irradiated near-mutant into a beautiful post-human that will eventually suffer a mental breakdown and believe itself to be Sanguinius himself.

So ideally, the geneseed of the 41st millennium is the stuff that was floating around the bodies of the Primarchs in the 30th millennium, but in practice it's the strain of cultured geneseed that's suffered the least from millennia of exposure to background radiation, psychic effluvia, and the somewhat degraded practices of harvest and implantation that are rife amongst the Astartes.

Recruiting from a diverse (but not too diverse) genepool does several things besides outsourcing the hard work of raising children to the Chapter's vassals. Firstly it ensures that the Chapter has access to psychic mutations, the psychic mutations that make recruits comptable with the geneseed, as well as the mutations that make them candidates for the Librarium. Secondly it makes sure that the Chapter is not vulnerable to all the problems facing monocultures (look it up). Thirdly it makes the Chapter a part of humanity rather than setting it apart.

The Alpha Legions' strong resemblance to each other was hinted at as being the result of(for most at least) surgical procedures in "Legion", so it didn't seem to be something like the Blood Angels where it overwrote the recipient's original traits.

Well, the Blood Angels' particular problems show us that genetics in 40k is at least significantly different from real-worl genetics, given that individual psychological trauma is an inherited trait.

Nurglitch: I know the problems with monocultures. I actually think that, because of their difficulties in reproduction and the fact that gene-seed is so picky, they logically SHOULD suffer from them.

How picky the geneseed is depends on the author (and even the reader), but it is to some extent.

Manchu wrote:Well, the Blood Angels' particular problems show us that genetics in 40k is at least significantly different from real-worl genetics, given that individual psychological trauma is an inherited trait.

Depends on what you think of genetic memory.

There's a reason big cats and other predators are afraid of fire, y'know.

Melissia:

Except that the geneseed doesn't completely over-write the recipient's own genetic code: you can't produce a Space Marine from pure gene-seed. It modifies an existing code. Given the complexities of genetics, there's no reason to double-down on an existing weakness. Better to shore it up by maintaining a pool of variants.

Kanluwen wrote:There's a reason big cats and other predators are afraid of fire, y'know.

And barking animals, i.e. dogs.

Well ,this has been educational (learned about monocultures and ubermensch). But perhaps, by way of Ockham's Razor, they don't clone because they don't need to. They have near limitless recruits to draw on anyways, which saves them all the resources from cloning and raising brats.

Nurglitch wrote:you can't produce a Space Marine from pure gene-seed.

How do you know? If the answer is "because none of them are" then we've got an answer for the overall topic, too.

Nurglitch wrote:Melissia:

Except that the geneseed doesn't completely over-write the recipient's own genetic code: you can't produce a Space Marine from pure gene-seed. It modifies an existing code. Given the complexities of genetics, there's no reason to double-down on an existing weakness. Better to shore it up by maintaining a pool of variants.

But if that pool of genetics is already extremely small anyway, shouldn't they already suffer from these problems?

When new chapter are comissioned, the techpriests of mars use cloned humans to rapidly reproduce the geneseed.

Clones of the great imperial heroes have been made in attempts to make super armies, although they always attract very bad luck after a short time of success.

Clones are used alot in the imperium but are usually mindless vat grown servitors.

@killkrazy 'twins are clones they have souls'

no point applying real world BELIEFS to a science fantasy setting that doesn't always follow the laws of physics let alone real world belief systems

The whole soul thing is beyond the point anyways, imo. But someone did tie the soul remark into our fantasy setting, a la the Alpharius/Omegon factoid.

Besides what I said before. Astartes believe that the geneseed takes a small amount of its hosts DNA with it. So basically a chapters gene-seed is supposedly becoming stronger all the time. The idea that your essence will be returned to the chapter and live on forever is the most core belief of all Astartes. I think its easy to dehumanize Space Marines because it seems they are genetically engineered (which they aren't technically, but genetically enhanced) but the idea of the geneseed being the direct link between them and their father The Emperor and their Primarch and every Brother that has ever fallen before them is very powerful and the holiest of the holies. It really is what separates the loyalists and traitors with no respect like Fabius Bile.

Corax allegedly tried cloning to replace his legion's losses after Isstvan. The results, even if only a rumor, could easily dissuade most Marines from doing the same.

Manchu:

Because the Astartes process uses geneseed to enhance an existing human being, not clone a Primarch.

Manchu wrote:Well, the Blood Angels' particular problems show us that genetics in 40k is at least significantly different from real-worl genetics, given that individual psychological trauma is an inherited trait.

That is Lysenkoism.

Manchu wrote:Cloning technololgy is available to the Imperium. The DKoK are clones.

Not quite.

The regiments/population are raised using massive amounts of IVF, not cloning, which is outlawed in the Imperium.

nobody wrote:Corax allegedly tried cloning to replace his legion's losses after Isstvan. The results, even if only a rumor, could easily dissuade most Marines from doing the same.

That is a good point, but he also tried to 'force grow' them to so as to quickly replace his Legion's losses, which may have had something to do with it too...

reds8n wrote:

Manchu wrote:Cloning technololgy is available to the Imperium. The DKoK are clones.

Not quite.

The regiments/population are raised using massive amounts of IVF, not cloning, which is outlawed in the Imperium.

Apart from all the billions of vat grown servitors and slaves of the techpriests

They're not clones, they're vat grown which is a different process.
And some, of course, are criminals and similar ne'erdowells.

But, to clarify, cloning of humans is illegal. Servitors, being essentially mindless biobots, get round this restriction by, technically, not being human.

@reds8n: Could you further explain what those Krigers are up to?

Weren't the Primarches clones (at least partially)? They are described as 'sons of the emperor' but no other source is ever mentioned for their genetic material AFAIK.

...They don't use cloning..as that's illegal. Of course it was also intended for it to be illegal for the Ecclesiarchy to have soldiers too of course...

Kreig uses "vitae wombs" to produce their regiments, but they never specify exactly how these work or what they are -- side note I have recollections of someone asking about this at one of the FW Open Days but cannot find a/the link .

I personally think this is probably a sneakt side step -- just like the "men under arms" get out clause -- but it could be anything from huge bioreactors where artifically inseminated eggs are incubated, to perhaps even harvesting female reproductive organs en masse -- all must serve their penance and help Krieg prove itself after all.

I think the idea of servitor wombs is certainly grim dark enough for the setting and the world. But that's perhaps a bit too technologically advanced for Kreig to have come up with, so I lean more towards them pumping women full of hormones to make them ovulating continuously and inseminate them.

They are then gestating multiple foetuses. These are removed and grown in a tank/artifical womb.

Thus they are 'naturally conceived' babies that are not grown naturally. This way females can be continuously fertilised and harvested for embryos without straining them too much, all the while staying within the letter, if not the spirit, of the Imperium's laws and dogma.

IIRC "Brave New World" has something themed towarsd this.

@ Mr. Spiggott:

No, the Primarchs are soemthing quite, quite different indeed... one really should read "The First Heretic" ASAP.


..but, in the meantime...

That's not exactly a huge reveal if you're read Fulgrim, or A Thousand Sons, or what have you.

Care to save me the bother and spoil me?