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Lotet wrote:can we use the 'Spells' section on page 97 on characters for this latest delema?

specifically, spells that affect a unit affect the character and spells that affect the character affect the unit but only if the spell can actually affect the unit normally.

so if I understand this right the unit takes priority and the character does not affect the prerequisites.

EDIT: scratch that, lousy specific wording...

I didn't see anyone comment on this. Does this not affect things?

If it did, a spell targetting an orc unit could affect a goblin character joined to it, buta spell targetting an orc character that was joined to a goblin unit would affect only the character, not the unit.

If it's wrong, tell me (gently please ) but I didn't see anyone address it...

Well, the wording on PG 97 is a bit different than that.

"When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit. Similarly, if a character is the subject of a spell that is capable of affecting a unit, the effect will also apply to any unit he joins, for as long as he remains part of it, and the spell lasts."

This does not apply in the situation for a number of reasons. The first part is about a character that joins to a unit that already has a spell on it. You would never be able to cast "Bash em Ladz" on the Trolls and THEN join the Orc to it.

Secondly, Bash em Ladz requires the unit you are casting at to ALREADY be in combat. Which means you could not cast it at the Orc on his own, then have him join the unit of trolls, as you are not allowed to join a unit that is already in combat. Even if there was somehow a possibility of joining the Orc to the Trolls (maybe there is a rule I am unaware of) the word "Capable" in the paragraph would make it so that the spell would not affect the trolls as they are not Orcs.

Really it doesn't apply in this situation.

**Edited for spelling

Thanks Lehnsherr, that about covers it! I guess I thought that perhaps the spell could be cast only on the character while he was with a unit of others, and affect only him and not the unit. But your explanation makes sense

In regards to your last post Killjoy, yes, the Unit is the sum of its parts... specifically that is ALL that it is. The sum of its parts, not the parts on their own.

So the unit is an Orc + Troll unit, that we can agree on. You say that the spell allows you to target this unit because you have satisfied the condition that it targets an Orc unit. The unit being both Orc and Troll.

I disagree with that assessment. You have not targetted an Orc unit, you have targetted an Orc + Troll unit. This is not a legal target for the spell as it is not EXPRESSLY written as a valid target. The unit is both Orc and Troll, and unless you have permission to then target both Orc and Troll you may not do so. You may target an Orc unit, but this unit is more than just an Orc unit.

The ruling of the spell is specific in that you MUST target an Orc unit, and with the ruleset being permissive you must now find permission to target the Orc + Troll unit, as this is not an Orc unit.

As Nos has pointed out in regards to simple english and math... if we change orcs to A, and Trolls to B, you are allowed to Target A with the spell, but the unit you are targetting is actually AB. Now you need specific permission to target AB, otherwise you may not.

As nos likes to say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ok, I think I got it. Page 96 of the BRB states that "Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes."

Page 99 states "Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes."

I think what it comes down to is that he is joining a unit of trolls. Based on the rule on 96 the ork ceases to be a unit. The trolls are still a unit, he has joined them. It is a unit of trolls being led by an orc.

The rule on 99 is only there to clarify that he is with them and not a separate entity and it goes on to explain other various rules that don't work, ie no Bash em Ladz.

Does any of this make sense? I kind of thought I was on to something but my wife distracted me and I lost my train of thought...

Bengrold Stonefist wrote:Does any of this make sense? I kind of thought I was on to something but my wife distracted me and I lost my train of thought...

<-------- Can relate

This is the exact same argument as the GK Shrouding argument in 40k. Some people read "Orc unit" as english and maths would define it - a unit composed of the "Orc" type. If you are not a unit composed of the "Orc" type, you cannot be an Orc Unit - by definition.

It is like having a barrel of apples (ORcs) and adding an Orange (Goblin) - this is no longer a barrel of apples, it is a barrel of {apples with an orange} OR {Orcs + Goblin}

Others see it differently.

Lehnsherr wrote:Well, the wording on PG 97 is a bit different than that.

"When a character joins a unit that is under the effect of a spell that affects the entire unit, the character only benefits or suffers from the effects of the spell whilst he remains in the unit. Similarly, if a character is the subject of a spell that is capable of affecting a unit, the effect will also apply to any unit he joins, for as long as he remains part of it, and the spell lasts."

This does not apply in the situation for a number of reasons. The first part is about a character that joins to a unit that already has a spell on it. You would never be able to cast "Bash em Ladz" on the Trolls and THEN join the Orc to it.

Secondly, Bash em Ladz requires the unit you are casting at to ALREADY be in combat. Which means you could not cast it at the Orc on his own, then have him join the unit of trolls, as you are not allowed to join a unit that is already in combat. Even if there was somehow a possibility of joining the Orc to the Trolls (maybe there is a rule I am unaware of) the word "Capable" in the paragraph would make it so that the spell would not affect the trolls as they are not Orcs.

Really it doesn't apply in this situation.

Lehnsherr wrote:In regards to your last post Killjoy, yes, the Unit is the sum of its parts... specifically that is ALL that it is. The sum of its parts, not the parts on their own.

So the unit is an Orc + Troll unit, that we can agree on. You say that the spell allows you to target this unit because you have satisfied the condition that it targets an Orc unit. The unit being both Orc and Troll.

I disagree with that assessment. You have not targetted an Orc unit, you have targetted an Orc + Troll unit. This is not a legal target for the spell as it is not EXPRESSLY written as a valid target. The unit is both Orc and Troll, and unless you have permission to then target both Orc and Troll you may not do so. You may target an Orc unit, but this unit is more than just an Orc unit.

The ruling of the spell is specific in that you MUST target an Orc unit, and with the ruleset being permissive you must now find permission to target the Orc + Troll unit, as this is not an Orc unit.

As Nos has pointed out in regards to simple english and math... if we change orcs to A, and Trolls to B, you are allowed to Target A with the spell, but the unit you are targetting is actually AB. Now you need specific permission to target AB, otherwise you may not.

I'm not buying the AB argument. By that same logic if a black ork inside a unit of black orcs is turned into a frog then the unit type is no longer black orks, it's black orks + Frog.

Bengrold Stonefist wrote:Ok, I think I got it. Page 96 of the BRB states that "Characters that have not joined another unit are treated as a separate unit of the appropriate type for all rules purposes."

Page 99 states "Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes."

I think what it comes down to is that he is joining a unit of trolls. Based on the rule on 96 the ork ceases to be a unit. The trolls are still a unit, he has joined them. It is a unit of trolls being led by an orc.

The rule on 99 is only there to clarify that he is with them and not a separate entity and it goes on to explain other various rules that don't work, ie no Bash em Ladz.

Does any of this make sense? I kind of thought I was on to something but my wife distracted me and I lost my train of thought...

That one seems consistent without reading anything into the rules.

Page 100 Special Rules
Unless otherwise noted in the text of the rule itself, a speciual rule applying only to a character does not apply to the unit and vice versa. On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected.

*shrugs* I don't know, just want people to talk about more than how to interpret phrasing. or to use more material at least.

English is a very complex language, eh?

I don't think this discussion will go much further as I think there is no compelling argument that really sways one side or the other, but I just wanted to touch on Lotet's last point.

That rule again does not apply to this situation. The first sentence is about special rules, so it can be ignored.

The second sentence "Many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects onto units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected."

This doesn't give us clarification of the issue at hand either. We are discussing whether the unit is a valid target for the spell, while this sentence talks about the effects of a spell, which means the spell had to be cast at the target to begin with.

What this ruling WOULD sort out (assuming we had a clear answer on the target issue) would be if the spell was cast at a unit of Orcs with a Goblin character. If the unit was a valid target (again a debate I would hope we could put to rest as there is no clear agreement) then the spell would ALSO affect the Goblin. The wording is about spells targetting a Unit that would then go on to affect the character in the unit.

If anything, this lends more credence to Bengrold Stonefist's interpretation.

my thoughts exactly. including the part where it's sort of a continuation on what stonefist was saying.

the only point where it would be unfair for a goblin character to have that ability would be if he's using the One Hit Wunda. everything else isn't any more effective in the hand of a Goblin than an Orc, more or less.

also, I'll ask you this. lets assume you're right and you can't target a mixed unit.

do Wyverns count as and Orc like the Boars becasue of thier rider? and more importantly, can a Wyvern who lost his rider still be affected by the spell?

One model while ridden, as per the rules for ridden monsters. When the rider is gone the Wyvern couldnt be targette....

I'll assume that if the Wyvern with Rider gets targetted he gets the boost and keeps it even if his rider gets killed in that same magic phase due to the haphazard number of things that can go wrong.

Ah right, I was seeing it as rider gets killed => spell cast. If the spell is still active then the unit would still benefit, as it only mtters at the point you cast the spell whether the unit is valid or not.