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Does bash em lads work on any unit in the ork book, or just orks?

I'm building a troll heavy list so this is a big thing to figure out.

Not having the O&G book, not a clue.

If it specifies "all units", it applies to all units. If it specifies "all Orc units" it applies to only Orcs, and not Goblins.

Bash em Ladz

"Cast this on any one Orc unit that is in close combat...."

Only works on Orcs.

I have a question about this spell.

It says that the unit "strikes first" and that is it(for the striking first part). Now, does this mean they gain ASF or something? How does this work against an enemy unit that has ASF? Do they go simo, but the enemy gets it ASF re-rolls since the Orcs don't actually have the ASF rule?

Well, the FAQ states to change the spell so that the orcs have the ASF ruling.

"Change the second sentence to “The unit has the Always Strikes First special rule, and can re-roll any To Hit rolls in the Close Combat phase of that turn.”

So the Orcs gain ASF and can re-roll any to hit rolls regardless of Initiative value.

When 2 units with ASF fight I believe the striking order is based off of Initiative order, but I cannot find the rule atm.

Bash 'Em Ladz only works for Orcoids of any sort (Black Orcs, Orcs, Savage Orcs, independent characters of the Orc variety). It confers, after the FAQ, the"Always Strikes First" special rule that round and allows the unit to re-roll failed to hits in the same round as well.

If two units have ASF, it is not initiative order: It is simultaneous. The working order for such things is:

ASF = ASF > Initiative = ASF & ASL > ASL = ASL

Assuming I'm not forgetting anything, anyways.


What's of particular note is that Waaagh! has not been FAQ'd to have "Always Strikes First" given from the spell, so people can arguably debate that it means models under Waaagh!'s special effects go even before ASF models.

Interesting catch on the Waaagh! spell. It has not been FAQ'd however I think that is likely the result of an oversight. The wording for the spell is identical to Bash em ladz.

As far as ASF, I do not have my BRB on hand so its best to follow what Minsc says in regards to that.

BRB, Page 66:
"In addition, if the model's Initiative is equal to or higher than his enemy's, he can re-roll failed misses when striking in combat - he moves so fast that he can land his blows with incredible precision. If the model with this rule is fighting an enemy with the same ability, the Attacks are made simultaneously, and neither model benefits from the re-rolls normally granted by this rule."

The same goes for two models with ASL (well, besides the re-roll bits).

Oh I believed you Minsc, you didn't have to quote the rule

Page 41

Cast this on any one orc unit that is in close combat within 18" of the Shaman. The unit strikes first in the next close combat phase and can re-roll any misses that phase.

The case for it working on gobbos or trolls is that by saying it targets any orc unit the language implies it works on any unit from the ork book, while if it says it can target any one unit of orcs would definitively define it as orcs only. Personally I don't see it in the language, and debating it seems as Clintonesque as debating the meaning of the word is.

RAW without debating the meaning of any words is.

1) It must target an orc unit
2) The unit gains the benifits

Now we get to the real fun question.

An orc hero is in a unit of goblins or trolls. If the orc is still a legitimate target then the hero's entire unit should gain the benefits as nothing is said about non orcs being excluded from the benefits in a mixed unit. So if 6 trolls and with an orc bigboss/shaman can be targeted the trolls should gain ASF and rerolls to hit.

Which leads up to another question because I don't have a BRB on me right now. In a unit of 6 monstrous infantry can a 25mm base hero be placed in the bank ranks of a 40mm unit, or is it stuck in the front rank on the side of the unit?

I understand the point of contention between an Orc unit and an "Orc" unit that being of the Orc army. However, there is no Orc army, there is an Orc and Goblin army. In the wording of the spell, Orc refers strictly to the unit composition and not the army codex.

You will often see things in the book refer to being useable on only Goblins, or Orcs or similar. I believe this to be the case with the spell in that it comes from the Big Waaagh! magic (Orc Magic).

When the Orc character joins a unit of Trolls i would think that it becomes a mixed unit. I would make the argument that this is not a legal target for the spell. Its not an Orc unit, its a unit of trolls with an orc character in it. At most, its an Orc and Troll unit. The spell does not allow you to target an "Orc and Troll" unit (I realize there is no such thing) nor does it allow you to target a mixed unit. It only allows you to target an Orc unit. The ruleset is permissive and the spell has a restriction (Orc unit) therefore you must have permission to target a mixed unit.

The character himself is not a unit either. Once a character joins a unit, he is now part of that unit and is not formally a unit of his own.

To answer the last question, the character must always be placed in the front rank. The exceptions to this rule are outlined within specific examples. Slann can go in the 2nd rank, Characters can be placed in 2nd rank if there are enough of them etc.

In the case of the troll unit the character would be in the front rank. In the Goblin unit, if you had a SB, a Musician, and a champion, they would go in the front rank. Your character could occupy the 2nd rank if you were running the unit 3 wide.

Isn't an Orc and Troll unit necessarily an Orc unit?

Well, there isn't really such a thing, as the term for it would be a mixed unit.

The spell strictly targets Orc units, not mixed units, and as such the unit would not be a legal target for the spell.

Even if you somehow made the argument that it was necessarily an Orc unit, it would also necessarily be a Troll unit. You could not distinguish one from the other, as they are both part of the whole. Frankly, this is irrelevant to the discussion of the spell.

You may only target Orc units, the character joining the Trolls would make it a mixed unit.

Would a single goblin shaman in a unit of black orcs turn it into a mixed unit that is no longer eligible to be targeted?

Lehnsherr wrote:

Even if you somehow made the argument that it was necessarily an Orc unit, it would also necessarily be a Troll unit.

The spell doesn't say "non-Troll" units. It says Orc. If the unit is an orc unit, you have permission to cast and the spell's conditions are specified.

can we use the 'Spells' section on page 97 on characters for this latest delema?

specifically, spells that affect a unit affect the character and spells that affect the character affect the unit but only if the spell can actually affect the unit normally.

so if I understand this right the unit takes priority and the character does not affect the prerequisites.

EDIT: scratch that, lousy specific wording...

A unit of trolls + Orc character is a {Troll + Orc} unit. It is NOT an Orc unit.

Same - put a gobbo in with your Blorcs, they are no longer a Unit of Orcs, they are an {Orc + Goblin} unit.

Killjoy, because the ruleset is permissive, and the wording is such that you may only cast it on an Orc unit, it inherently means you cannot target a Troll unit.

Now if there were such a thing as a Troll + Orc unit, you would not be able to pick out which part of the unit you would like to cast the spell at. The spell targets the whole unit, ie. both the Trolls and the Orc.

In that case you are picking an illegal target as per the description of the spell. You may not target a troll unit, or in this case a Troll + Orc unit. There is no argument that you can make that:

A) Allows you to target the trolls with the spell
or
B) Says that you can cast the spell at only the Orc portion of the unit

You are making the assumption that by targetting the Orc you have satisfied the conditions of the spell, but by targetting the unit as a whole (which you must do) you have in fact broken the ruling the spell lays out for you.

The better question is why we are seeking loopholes to circumvent an obvious ruling.

I disagree. A unit of orcs and something is necessarily a unit of orcs. The spell doesn't say a unit of only orcs. An army of Orcs and Goblins is both an army of orcs and an army of goblins. It has to necessarily have all the properties of its parts. Therefore it is an orc unit.

It is also necessarily a Troll unit.

You are making the assumption that you can target a troll unit if it is part of a Troll + Orc unit, because the rule doesn't specifically say otherwise.

However the ruleset of WHFB is a permissive ruleset. You must have specific permissions to do certain things. You do not have permission to target a Troll unit, and regardless of whether or not the unit is Orc it is also invariably Troll.

You say that the spell does not say "Non-Troll" however it does not HAVE to say non troll. By being permissive it MUST say that you CAN target a Troll unit otherwise you cannot target a Troll unit.

The unit in question is both Orc and Troll, and you do not have permission to cast at a Troll unit.

Killjoy00 wrote:I disagree. A unit of orcs and something is necessarily a unit of orcs. The spell doesn't say a unit of only orcs. An army of Orcs and Goblins is both an army of orcs and an army of goblins. It has to necessarily have all the properties of its parts. Therefore it is an orc unit.

Incorrect.

There is only ONE UNIT. When a character joins a unit he ceases to be a unit in his own right (Proof: he could be targetted if he were his own unit still. He cannot)

This one unit is a {Troll + Orc} unit.

Is it an Orc unit? No? Then it cannot be targetted.

Lehnsherr, I'm not making any assumptions I can target a troll unit. It says I can target an orc unit. What is an orc unit if not a unit with orcs?

Similarly, nos, there is only one unit, but that unit can have multiple characteristics. By having trolls in it, it is a troll unit. By having orcs, it is an orc unit.

Is a rat ogre with a master moulder an ogre unit? Is a skink unit with kroxigors a skink unit? Of course. They have both, they are units of both.

You are correct in that a unit of Orcs is just that, a unit of Orcs. Strictly Orcs. A unit of Orcs with Trolls is exactly what it is, a unit of Orcs + Trolls.

In terms of the Skink + Krox unit... no its not a skink unit. Its a mixed unit, and that is clearly defined in the Lizardman codex. Thats the problem with the O&G book is that its old, and written very poorly.

The danger with using the logic you are using comes from other rulings you must then make with an O&G army.

If we are to accept the fact that a unit made up of Trolls and Orcs is both a Troll unit, and an Orc unit, and not simply a Troll + Orc unit, then what would happen with the "Size Matters" ruling?

You have a unit of Goblins with an Orc character, and then your Troll unit led by an Orc.

If the unit of Goblins are within 6 inches of the unit of Trolls led by the Orcs, and they break from combat. Under these circumstances, your Troll unit must now test for panic. That is if we are using your logic in the matter, as the Unit of Goblins is also a unit of Orcs, and the unit of Trolls is a unit of Orcs as well. Parts of each unit would be subject to the panic created by parts of the other unit.

The whole problem with it is that we are adding the concept of Orc + Troll, or Goblin + Orc when it simply becomes a mixed unit. Irregardless, when you have 2 parts that make up a whole you cannot define the whole as its parts. The whole is BOTH of its parts, and in this case when you are looking at ANY rulings in regards to the unit, you would have to define the unit as Orc + Troll. The spell lets you target an Orc unit, not an Orc + Troll unit.

In the end you cannot define the unit as an Orc unit because that definition clearly disregards parts of the unit.

Size Matters is an excellent point. For instance, when you crew an Orc to a war machine, it now has Orcs and Goblins. But it ignores all panic caused by goblins. IE, it is now an Orc and Goblin unit, which allows it to take advantage of Orcs ignoring the panic of goblins.

Yes, but how would that apply to the unit of Orcs and Trolls ignoring the panic caused by the Unit of Orcs and Goblins?

A bully gives you that specific ruling which does not apply to my example

The Orcs and Goblins in my example would break from combat... and using your logic that is an Orc unit breaking from combat. The Trolls and Orcs are within 6", and the unit would be both Orc and Troll. If it is an Orc unit, as you would have us believe, then it has to panic. If it is an Orc AND Troll unit, then it would not panic.... but using that logic would mean that Bash em Ladz would be targetting an Orc AND Troll unit.

No, my logic would get to the same result. I say it counts as both. Because it is a troll unit, it does not panic. That rule (size matters) gives the unit permission to not take the panic test. Similarly, the orc in the unit gives the unit permission to be targeted. All these units are X, Y AND x+ y. They can't not be the sum of their parts.

What about boar boyz?

They are clearly an orc unit, and it says:

Cast this on any one orc unit that is in close combat within 18" of the Shaman. The unit strikes first in the next close combat phase and can re-roll any misses that phase.

So you're targetting it on an orc unit, but "the unit strikes first", meaning the boars will be affected too.

Right?

Exactly right.

The mount is considered part of the model... if you have a unit of Orc Boar Boyz, you have a unit of Orcs (clearly defined as Orcs) who have mounts (All part of the Orc model). So when you are choosing a valid target for the spell you target a unit of "Orc Boar Boyz." Are they Orcs? Yep. Is it nothing but Orcs? Actually yes, they are. They may have mounts, but the mount is PART OF the Orc model.

Its an Orc unit, and the example has nothing to do with a unit of Trolls which are clearly defined, and clearly not orcs.

An Orc unit is a unit composed of Orcs. If you have a unit that is composed of Orcs and something else, you DONT have an Orc unit.

Simple English and Maths tells you that.