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I have plenty of IOB sets and if I am going to use cavalry, which I will in another army list, I will use Dragon Princes as while more expensive, they are more effective in my experience.
Also as young john said, white dwarf is meant to sell models so I take its tactical advice with a grain of salt.

A new list I will be testing this Saturday or Sunday. As for Teclis, I just want to try him as I keep hearing good things, if he is to overpowerd, I drop him for my normal archmage and mage combo.

Lords
Teclis 475

Heros
Noble 178
BSB, Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armour, Shield

Noble 138
Armour of Protection, Great Weapon

Noble 149
Shadow Armour, Longbow, Additional Hand Weapon, Guardian Phoenix

Troops
Sea Guard x40 555
Full Command, Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Archers x15 195
Light Armour, Hawkeye, Musician

Special
Phoenix Guard x40 688
Full Command, Razor Standard, Amulet of Light (Magical Attacks)

White Lions x20 330
Full Command

Shadow Warroirs x10 172
Shadow Walker

Rare
Bolt Thrower 100
Crew

I am a long time High elf player. Teclis is over kill and completely unneeded. Your archmage is powerful enough to be honest. Make him wear the the forlaiths robes and he can take most shooting and close combat attacks without any damage whatsoever. The talisman is alright too... as that protects against magic as well.
I typically like the 6x3 units of white lions and sword masters. Giving the white lions a combat lord if available with great defensive items. (such as caledor + vambraces) or a Noble BSB with caledor and dawnstone (no magic banner) Pushing My sword masters with the razor standard against cav and heavily armoured troops. They kill cav, and have a rank left typically to keep the stubborn should they lose one round. PG's I have deemed worthless.

Pheonixguard. Sure, ini6 means usually rerolling... ws 5 str 4 hits.... so half the guys you face will be wounding on a 4-5 the other halff on threes. The cav that hits you should be still with a 4+ armor... They only get 1 attack each... and yea half of them save their wounds... but typically you will be losing combat. Which means what? you're stubborn on a 9 right? But you arent getting anywhere.... and now you are stuck. Not able to stop them from flanking you. 1100 point unit holding teclis is a sure fire way to make sure they hit you with their tough units, the ones you cant wound so easily, and pul in the cav, or shock troops in your flank and... boom. You lose.

Your seaguard? I run them in 40 and 20.... so I don't see any issues with 50. I would however give them shields. Giving them a generic 6+ ward save and a 5+ against shooting (and 6+ vs fire lore) is nice. I always stop using spears in horde formation when it drops down to thirty models (as spears mean jack now and the ward is nice) You can add 50 points to it by adding shields to them I do suggest splitting them to 40/20 though. I realize that means one less rank of attacks with spears... but it means the second unit can target another unit such as fast cav with shooting. Instead of volleying with the horde. Shadow warriors are insanely bad imo. I put my mage in here. on the edge, with no champion... so you can refuse challenges and move him to the back, or simply you do the charging so you can keep him out of combat. You should always have ranks on your side if facing elite units... and with all those attacks you should be able to keep them in combat long enough to do some decent damage to them.

I understand the mage with shield. Nice. Shadow? not bad for teclis again if you insist on using him... death, fire, metal. Three awesome spell lines.... that arent life (though I love life... teclis shouldn't be the one using it imo)

I like the banner of world dragon... in Ard Boyz, when running a unit of 30 sword masters across the field with a Crown of command lord, but not otherwise. So what you have here... is a noble that will protect your unit from magic... but will go down in close combat netting them massive points... brings that unit up to being worth 1500 points to them. Again I'll use orcs as the example... you get hit by some big un savage orcs. They are toughness 4 with a 6+ ward save. they hit you on 4's, so half of say... 24 attacks hit you. str 5, so 5/6ths wound. 10 wounds you save... 5 on average. You hit them.... you hit them on 3's. rerolling. so 16 attacks (not counting charactors) and say you hit with 10, then you wound on half of those..... 5. then the 6 up ward saves 1. That leaves 4 wounds you did. They did 5. and if you're unlucky they already killed your teclis. Or nearly as bad BSB. You can imagine them having a combat character as well. While you're stubborn they will sit there hit you with one of their other units, maybe black orcs, maybe a giant, or trolls. Now you're flanked. any GOOD player will set themselves up to do this to you. Your ranks mean jack. Your wounding ability is minimal. and now you have no real way of saving that bsb or teclis.

Just my opinion here. I keep my mage in my seaguard horde, bust him out behind some terrain or the unit if an enemy comes by (with the robe i give him he doesn't fear being picked out by shooting) then move him over to another unit if available (which I ALWAYS have the 20 man seaguard near by to run him into)

@amornspeaking, you are first person who has said that Phoenix Guard do not rock. I have tired using swordmasters, but they have die way to easily from shooting and what they do not kill in CC kills them. How do you keep yours alive? Shield of Sapphery helps but people tend to dispel it when they find out what it does. So that is not always a sure thing.
That is the reason why I like using the Phoenix Guard. They are the best anvil that elfs have in my opinion. Plus when I get them in combat that is when the white lions come and hit the flank of the whatever is in combat with the PG.
One question, in your example with the savage orcs, how are they hitting me first?
I do have shields on my seaguard, so the points for them are correct. I will see how the archer block does and then try out a smaller unit of sea guard.

On a side note I just found out that I can not have the razor standard and banner of the world dragon as only a BSB can have a standard from the rulebook, so I have to figure that. I want to keep the razor standard with the BSB. I am thinking of adding the War Banner for better combat res or the Banner of Arcane Protection for better protection against spells.

guardpiper wrote:@amornspeaking, you are first person who has said that Phoenix Guard do not rock. I have tired using swordmasters, but they have die way to easily from shooting and what they do not kill in CC kills them. How do you keep yours alive? Shield of Sapphery helps but people tend to dispel it when they find out what it does. So that is not always a sure thing.
That is the reason why I like using the Phoenix Guard. They are the best anvil that elfs have in my opinion. Plus when I get them in combat that is when the white lions come and hit the flank of the whatever is in combat with the PG.
One question, in your example with the savage orcs, how are they hitting me first?
I do have shields on my seaguard, so the points for them are correct. I will see how the archer block does and then try out a smaller unit of sea guard.

On a side note I just found out that I can not have the razor standard and banner of the world dragon as only a BSB can have a standard from the rulebook, so I have to figure that. I want to keep the razor standard with the BSB. I am thinking of adding the War Banner for better combat res or the Banner of Arcane Protection for better protection against spells.

I do it with my movement and set up phase. We at least use either generically set up terrian (usually 6 peices) or the 1d6 +4 rule.... meaning I have craploads of terrain to base my movement around. If I am setting up half the terrain you can bet there is a hil, or building or similiar in the middle. I tend to pull every stage of a game to my favor, deployment, terrian, movement and so on. Random chance usually gives you at least 1 tower or building or whatever. If I am left in the open yea, Shield of saphery, or flesh to stone.... only need 2 turns for me to be in combat. Since I have the skin sliver i usually go first, boost their ward, or toughness(i prefer to toughness buff them) then second round typically lends it self to combat... meaning no more shooting.

Your last statement isn't true. The only Character (as the book states it) is a bsb. Standard bearers can indeed use them, as they are not charactors. That line was placed in their to show that your Prince, or mage cannot take those magic items.

Pheonix guard as just as susceptible to magic as any other unit in a ton of cases now. Dwellers, pit, purple sun, 13th spell.... ward save means jack against those.....

My sword masters however in two blocks of 18 can maneuver the field hiding behind terrian and rushing into combat.


As for my savage orc example. They arent hitting you first, i was solely using them as an example... since you wouldn't likily kill anywhere near enough to make them lose attacks who strikes first doesn't matter. However... since orc shaman have two spells to give their units ASF with automatic rerolls... (and if I am not mistaken that would make your rerolls not occur) both of which are cheap as hell to cast.... and one affects all units within 12 inches... you can bet (at least in my last two tournies) they will be running orc shamans pushing this out at nearly all costs against high elves. Eliminating rerolls and giving them one regardless of INI.

You are right, sword masters tend to lose some guys when hit. Though with an archmage or teclis in the army you should have at least toughness 5 if you are using lore of life on them. Either way, your enemy is hitting you on 4s or 5s most likily... and with the talisman of loec i give my SM champions MOST hero level charactors tend to die to him.... so yes many of them do die..... but only if you are in combat with one of their more powerful units. Which again should mean they are buffed.... but even if not... you should win combat res against nearly ANY unit out there.... You are rerolling agianst nearly every unit out there with INI 5... meaning 3+ to hit twice typically.... and 2-3+ to wound.... with -2to 3 armour... soo those remaining 16 attacks are wounding like 10.... leaving many elite units down to only a single rank and a couple guys in the back to strike back. Again.... hitting on 4s usually. So only half of theirs hit...


OK that last paragraph may have been a bit jumbled but I hope you get my point. PG's lose combat res, run and die. Thats my experience. Sword masters win combat res, take out characters, and usually double their points made(or MUCH more.) if you can get even the 5+ ward or the +2-4 toughness they tend to survive too. Using them to take out Cav, or small elite units is OP, using white lions and their stubborn to set up for the flank charge (or my eagles who flee when charged.)

@amornspeaking, thanks for the insight, it will give me something to think about.

Well I am doing a tourney where we play for a couple of weeks and my first opponent, is a lizardmen army (I think that is what he plays), and the points value is 2000.
Here is an idea for my list. Tecils stays as I have not used him yet and I would like to use him.

Lords

Teclis (Uses Life)

Heros
Noble with Banner of the World Dragon, Dragon Armour, Shield.

Core
Sea Guard x40, Full command, Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Special
White Lions x20, Full Command, Razor Standard

Swordmaster x20 Full Command

So this is just 5 points shy of 2000. I am wondering if splitting the sea guard into 2 smaller units would be better.
I am going skip using Phoenix Guard this one battle and see what if I can make it a game without them.
Any ideas are welcome.

no wonder your swordmasters die, you do not protect them.

use nobles. one with that thing that gives the wearer and his unit a -1 at shooting, and one with the cloak that gives a 2+ ward for wounds caused by spells. if one noble can take them, use one. put him in the unit.
few buffs from life should do the rest

PS: why does everybody use Teclis??
i used him only once against Morathi and from the turn 2 and after i was strugling to keep him alive. i dont think he worths his points..

Most people use Teclis because he is the most powerful magic caster in Warhammer if you use him well.